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This picture has stirred up some debate on Facebook because the Marine isn't saluting during the national anthem. In my nearly 10 years I have never seen a salute rendered indoors except when reporting to an officer or board, receiving a promotion or award, or by an individual on guard duty.
I've looked at AR 600-25 and it's not very clear to me. Armystudyguide.com says no you don't.
What's the correct answer?
I've looked at AR 600-25 and it's not very clear to me. Armystudyguide.com says no you don't.
What's the correct answer?
National Anthem
Drill and Ceremony
Saluting
Customs and Courtesies
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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I am sure this Marine did not say to himself. "I think I will get in my Dress and go to this event and stand next to the singer" and drive to the arena without notice and walk out on the ice. This was a planned event and I am sure that someone guided or directed the Marine on how to act during the event. If there were modifications to standard D&C procedure I am sure those were put in place by someone with more authority, The Marine was surely just doing as he was told.
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Maj (Join to see)
Stranger things have happened. And I don't think there is anyone with more authority when a Marine Sgt is around... at least not one with more authority to dictate variations to our customs and courtesies.
If we are going to speculate, I suspect that this is a veteran, and not a recent one either. He may be a little out of touch, and just went along when someone said they were looking for vets to recognize as a public event. So he dusts off his uniform and off he went.
If we are going to speculate, I suspect that this is a veteran, and not a recent one either. He may be a little out of touch, and just went along when someone said they were looking for vets to recognize as a public event. So he dusts off his uniform and off he went.
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SSG (Join to see) We always saluted at pay call. "PFC Hayden reporting for pay sir" That was one of the few instances where the officer did not return the salute.
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SGT Philip Roncari
CSM Charles Hayden-Boy CSM that jogs the old memories you probably got less but I remember the princely sum of $84.and change a month not counting the $25, I had as an allotment to my parents( to keep my room open dear old dad said) hope alls well with you my friend,Phil.
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AR 600-25 (at least the 2004 version, the latest I found on the net) states in Appendix C that military personnel in uniform indoors, not in a formation, whether wearing headgear or not, stand at attention but do not salute during the National anthem. At least in the Army, you never put your hand over your heart in uniform. That's strictly for civilian clothes.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LTC (Join to see) - Definitely odd choice. Definitely "technically" wrong.
There's no "right" choice. Not trying to justify it. I wasn't there. I can see why he might make that call though. Just like I can see why he might salute or might stand at attention only. For all I know this was a scripted PAO event that that was a directed action. I just don't know.
There's no "right" choice. Not trying to justify it. I wasn't there. I can see why he might make that call though. Just like I can see why he might salute or might stand at attention only. For all I know this was a scripted PAO event that that was a directed action. I just don't know.
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CPT John Sheridan
Well, I can't fault the Sergeant for rendering honors, even if he got it wrong. I would rather give him credit for showing respect. Perhaps the NCO's in his unit should offer a correction so that he can get it right the next time.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Indoor Event, but the Cover (and gloves.. which he is not wearing) completes the outfit. It creates a conflict, which has to be resolved. He puts the Cover on to conform to the event (leaving the gloves off because he's indoors, which is correct).
He's "technically" wrong, but correct in Spirit.
This is where Marines and Army really differ. We're huge into Spirit of the Tradition as opposed to Letter of the Regulation. He leaned Spirit where an Army guy would have probably leaned Letter.
cc Capt Mark Strobl
He's "technically" wrong, but correct in Spirit.
This is where Marines and Army really differ. We're huge into Spirit of the Tradition as opposed to Letter of the Regulation. He leaned Spirit where an Army guy would have probably leaned Letter.
cc Capt Mark Strobl
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CW4 (Join to see)
Is there a Marine regulation that states "We're huge into Spirit of the Tradition as opposed to Letter of the Regulation." Department of Defense has a regulation for everything and there isn't a lot of room for interpretation regardless of the branch of service. You are correct, he is wrong, and the wrong doesn't require the qualifier of "technically". Either keep the cover on and salute, or remove the cover and keep the hand where its at. Fairly simple for any branch of service.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Incorrect. When covered a Marine will render the salute. If uncovered, stand at attention. In civilian attire we can either stand at attention or place our hand over our hearts.
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SSgt Terry P.
SSgt (Join to see) - thank you ,Sgt, i found this recently.
A RECENT CHANGE TO THE LAW HAS AUTHORIZED ACTIVE DUTY
AND RETIRED SERVICEMEMBERS TO SALUTE THE NATIONAL COLORS, WHETHER
COVERED OR UNCOVERED, INDOORS OR OUT.
A RECENT CHANGE TO THE LAW HAS AUTHORIZED ACTIVE DUTY
AND RETIRED SERVICEMEMBERS TO SALUTE THE NATIONAL COLORS, WHETHER
COVERED OR UNCOVERED, INDOORS OR OUT.
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SSgt (Join to see)
SSgt Terry P. - Here's the full paragraph from ALMAR 052/08:
SALUTING. A RECENT CHANGE TO THE LAW HAS AUTHORIZED ACTIVE DUTY
AND RETIRED SERVICEMEMBERS TO SALUTE THE NATIONAL COLORS, WHETHER
COVERED OR UNCOVERED, INDOORS OR OUT. BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION,
MARINES DO NOT RENDER THE HAND SALUTE WHEN OUT OF UNIFORM OR WHEN
UNCOVERED. LET THERE BE NO CONFUSION; THAT HAS NOT CHANGED. DURING
THE PLAYING OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, OR THE RAISING, LOWERING, OR
PASSING OF THE NATIONAL FLAG, MARINES WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW NAVAL
TRADITIONS AND THE POLICY / PROCEDURES CONTAINED IN REFERENCE (A).
SPECIFICALLY, MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL FACE THE FLAG, STAND AT
ATTENTION, AND PLACE THE RIGHT HAND OVER THE HEART. IF COVERED,
MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL REMOVE THEIR HEADGEAR WITH THE RIGHT
HAND AND PLACE THEIR RIGHT HAND OVER THEIR HEART. WHEN THE FLAG IS
NOT PRESENT, MARINES WILL ACT IN THE SAME MANNER WHILE FACING IN THE
DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC. IN CASES SUCH AS INDOOR CEREMONIES, WHEN
MARINES ARE IN UNIFORM AND UNCOVERED, THEY WILL FACE THE FLAG, OR
THE DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC WHEN THE FLAG IS NOT PRESENT, AND STAND
AT ATTENTION.
SALUTING. A RECENT CHANGE TO THE LAW HAS AUTHORIZED ACTIVE DUTY
AND RETIRED SERVICEMEMBERS TO SALUTE THE NATIONAL COLORS, WHETHER
COVERED OR UNCOVERED, INDOORS OR OUT. BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION,
MARINES DO NOT RENDER THE HAND SALUTE WHEN OUT OF UNIFORM OR WHEN
UNCOVERED. LET THERE BE NO CONFUSION; THAT HAS NOT CHANGED. DURING
THE PLAYING OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, OR THE RAISING, LOWERING, OR
PASSING OF THE NATIONAL FLAG, MARINES WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW NAVAL
TRADITIONS AND THE POLICY / PROCEDURES CONTAINED IN REFERENCE (A).
SPECIFICALLY, MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL FACE THE FLAG, STAND AT
ATTENTION, AND PLACE THE RIGHT HAND OVER THE HEART. IF COVERED,
MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL REMOVE THEIR HEADGEAR WITH THE RIGHT
HAND AND PLACE THEIR RIGHT HAND OVER THEIR HEART. WHEN THE FLAG IS
NOT PRESENT, MARINES WILL ACT IN THE SAME MANNER WHILE FACING IN THE
DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC. IN CASES SUCH AS INDOOR CEREMONIES, WHEN
MARINES ARE IN UNIFORM AND UNCOVERED, THEY WILL FACE THE FLAG, OR
THE DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC WHEN THE FLAG IS NOT PRESENT, AND STAND
AT ATTENTION.
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You would salute indoors only when reporting to an Officer and if You work int e same office only the firs time during the day. Its not required each time You enter His office as an example once its been done. Salute aren't exchanged otherwise indoors including passing in hallways as an example. If covered (wearing at hat) which You would if under arms or in a ceremony (even unarmed) but covered a salute should be rendered. In civilian clothes a salute can be rendered, (due to recent changes) outdoors or indoors on the playing of the National anthem but its not mandatory, in all events, as a minimum stand at attention and either place Your right hand over Your heart or now You could also salute if You choose to so so.
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The circumstances, uniform, and sequence of events for these "ceremonies" are typically planned out to best fit the ceremony not the service regulations. Marines wear covers indoors for other ceremonies all the time, and saluting is highlighted in MCO P5060.20 W/CH1-5 and reinforced in ALMAR 052/08 which state that if covered for a ceremony or for non-ceremonial purposed both indoor and outdoor Marines should face the flag (or music if the flag can not be seen) and salute from the first note to the last. Now it is totally possible that whomever set up this event told the Marine wrong, i dont think he took it upon himself not to salute.
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IAW with AR, I don't know Marine regulation, he should be saluting. Not sure about the cover because that may be an open arena or a ceremony performed as an "outdoor" ceremony. However, regardless of his honors being presented there are a lot of things that may cause the Marine to being honoring the Anthem that way. In my experience, Marines are an organization of the highest standard and I would err on the side that the Marine is doing what is right be either exception to policy or a matter of sound judgment based on information neither one of us are privileged too.
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I've seen a lot of comments about his cover being on. When participating in a civilian event he can wear his cover if it is expected as a part of his participation in the event. All services make allowances for this for civilian events. Been there done that with my sister services.
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If there was a public information officer there, the Marine was probably told to do this. Remember this is a concert or similar. If he saluted, his raised arm would distract attention from the singer. The event producers would object to that and, maybe, remove the Marine. The Corps, like all services, is very cooperative with event producers and always seeking to show off the Corps. Had I been the PIO, I would have "stretched" the Reg a bit to make sure the Corps got the visual time. Within the spirit, if not the letter.
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