Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Discipline
Enlisted
UCMJ
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 255
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Though I am not in the service anymore, I saw that starting back in the late 60's. It seems even worse now, even in the private sector. I have seen smart, collage graduates, apply for jobs and think they should start at the top rather than work their way up and I think that is caused by their upbringing and the environment they grew up in.
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While not Army, I don't think the situation is much different in any of the services. To me what you describe as lack of discipline is the view of what I refer to as the 'black and white mentality'. If something isn't exactly as a person with that mentality expects it to be the outcome is viewed as a lack of something, in your case discipline. The problem is that in the military there is a huge grey area between those black and white goal posts. If the higher ranking soldiers didn't see an interaction with lower ranking soldiers as lack of respect or discipline then I suspect the scenario occurred in that grey area. The 'black and white mentality' will never grasp that concept, so my advice is suck it up and move on or try to understand that grey areas exist. Heck in my past life even special weapons maintenance procedures had grey areas so to think that military discipline doesn't have them is totally out of the realm of reality.
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Many years ago, the DOD had an outside think tank inform them that they needed to become "Kinder and gentler" to their military personnel, something about military discipline and civilian discipline didn't match[thank you Dr. B. Spock] and so it began, the BCT that I'd endured in the mid '70's no longer existed. I'd been informed that "Stress Cards" were issued to new recruits so as to not harm their fragile egos(GAG me please), placing recruits in the "Front Leaning Pest Position" for extended lengths of time for individual transgressions was now unacceptable. Other tools of discipline were removed from the DI's hands and now the mess that exists, created by an outside "expert" with NOooooo real idea of the militaries need for firm discipline and the respect of rank and authority has lead to this...…… To fix it, DOD must think of returning the services induction training to that of maybe??? the 1960's....
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PFC Angela Van Horn
I'd pay good money to see one of these "stress cards" I've heard so much about, Sarnt. Certainly didn't exist when I was going through
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I am retired Army for 20 years now and have been dismayed and disappointed with the lack of military bearing and discipline that I see when I visit Army posts these days. Pride and discipline are just not taught anymore in basic training. The Army doesn't even teach its recruits Army history. Without this, there is no pride. No pride leads to lack of discipline. This has been going on for so long that the a lot of the NCOs in today, those that are responsible for teaching the next generation, are soldiers who also missed out on this critical education themselves. You cannot teach something that you, yourself, never learned. I'm not bagging on the Army in any way, just telling it like it is. I was taught pride and trained in discipline when I was in and that carried over into my time on active duty and even into my life afterward. We need to take a step back and return to what we know worked--hard work and discipline.
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I dont see it as a discipline issue, i see it as a cultural one. The Army and Marines are not the same animal. The Marines have embraced a culture that is fitted to expeditionary, high intensity combat. The Army seemingly has been used as a test bed for all sorts of initiatives. On top of that the "professionalism" approach that leaders have pushed for several years now has hog tied leaders from demonstrating the same intensity as our USMC counterparts. I can tell you that when I came in during 2001. It was clear the only rights i had were the ones my NCOs allowed me to have. Now soldiers have rights to their dignity that also contribute to a degree of freedom from the chain of command. As many senior NCOs have grown up in this enviornment, their opinions have been shaped by these entitlements. Now rather than it being a discipline issue, it effects the organizational culture of the army and has become systemic.
That said... the Army is not an expeditionary force in the same manner as the Marines. We are not a global QRF. Because of that we are structured and sustained differently, from the team level up. It is not an apples to apples comparison.
That said... the Army is not an expeditionary force in the same manner as the Marines. We are not a global QRF. Because of that we are structured and sustained differently, from the team level up. It is not an apples to apples comparison.
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I don't believe you can generalize about any of the services. The CO of a unit and the unit staff set the tone for interaction between the ranks.
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Capt Michael Wilford
Thank you, sir, a valid point to be sure. I am basing my question on my personal observation during two tours as a guest of the Army and on my comparison to the discipline expected of Marines. Perhaps the latter is an unfair comparison, but it is a baseline. I do agree that the CO and unit staff set the tone for discipline. Having been both enlisted and an officer, I had the benefit of being an NCO before I was commissioned and as an NCO, I was expected to be an example and to enforce standards of discipline we learned in boot camp. When I went through OCS, the same standards were taught, but as officers, as I am sure you recall, we were held to even higher expectations. Some of the responses I got from Army folks was that it was a size issue. The Army is big and it is compartmentalized and that is a root cause for the breakdown in overall discipline; unit cohesion suffers. In the Army, there is segregation based on MOS and that is not the case in the Marine Corps as we are all Marines and Riflemen first, that common base, if you will. This has been an interesting thread to be sure. Thanks for participating and Semper Fi, sir!
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LtCol Robert Quinter
Capt Michael Wilford - Size and compartmentalization is an interesting concept, but everyone is someone's responsibility! Semper Fidelis my friend.
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Before I could comment I would have to know what bases you served on with the Army.
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Capt Michael Wilford
I served in Germany with the First Infantry Division (G2) and at Ft. Bragg with the 18th ABN Corps (G2). That said, where I served should not matter, a soldier is a soldier regardless of duty station and discipline should not be left at the last duty station.
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CSM Darieus ZaGara
Since you have made your own judgement as to why I asked the question there is no need for my input. Thank you for your service. Capt Michael Wilford
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Capt Michael Wilford
CSM Darieus ZaGara - , I mean no disrespect or judgment and I would like your input; this is why I asked the question. Does the location of where one serves really impact whether a troop has discipline? If so, I would like to explore that more. As a senior NCO and as an enlisted manager, you have a very unique perspective that I feel is valuable. Some of the best quality time I spent with the Army was with the BN CSM at 1/7 FA in Germany. He was quite the character and his insight was invaluable.
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Capt Michael Wilford
SSgt Joseph Baptist -, in the grand scheme of Marine Corps life, where one went to boot camp really does not matter; that is just stupid trash talk between boots who are too green to know better. Again, I agree with you, some Marines are very disrespectful, but I think you will find that they either do not stay in the Corps or they get adjusted very quickly and very harshly. I was a case in point for the latter as we previously discussed. One thing I will never do is make excuses for unsatisfactory Marines; we are supposed to be the poster children for discipline for the US military. I, for one, appreciate the fact that you call it like you see it. Voting you up for that...
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I was a Squad Leader; in the Army. I didn't have a problem with discipline. Capt Michael Wilford
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Capt Michael Wilford
Thank you for your response. Do you think it was due to the timeframe during which you served? In other words, a generational phenomena?
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SPC Margaret Higgins
Capt Michael Wilford - I think that I had discipline in the Army: because I cared for my Squad members so deeply. Their discipline was my responsibility.
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SSgt Max Gonzales
I guess being a part of a military family,had a lot to do with how I perceived that choice of life. I have an older brother (deceased) who was a career man. Another who was air traffic control,one worked in the motor pool, I was security (dog handler), younger was a Marine. Not once did I hear anyone complain. Discipline was never an issue. Again, I think it's the entitled attitude,that makes me wonder why they bother enlisting. I'm a veteran, almost 50 years from serving.
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As someone who is published in the field of healthcare and statistical analysis I think your idea for a while paper is an excellent one. I would think that some societal factors are playing into it with regards to millenial culture. This is not a bad thing, but a social dynamic that is affecting all our institutions in many ways. One of the things I'd recommend you'd do is join some social media groups like TIKTOK. I did on a whim, and have seen ALOT of junior enlisted posting videos which air some interesting complaints (11Bs not training enough in the field or their MOS, other units on an FTX showing soldiers using their phones while guarding a checkpoint, and so on. I have some anecdotal information if you'd like to reach out, please do so.
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Suspended Profile
Here is my take and it applies to all services. If you are seeing these issues know this, there is no such thing as bad units or troops, only bad leaders.
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I consider myself a very “squared away solider” and i have people of pretty much all ranks that will vouch but sometimes i find myself getting complacent due to the lack of not only “good leadership” but leaders that are what the NCO creed says they should be in general. I’ve whitness soldiers go from HOOAH to shit bag from Lousy leaders that don’t care about their soldiers nor their personal situations, but you do have the occasional knuckle head that was probably doomed from the beginning...
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I was enlisted Army eons ago. My son is an NCO now. He was the first to tell me this is becoming a real problem which the Army is struggling to deal with now. He said for some years now, The DIs and others in training commands are severely limited in the corporal and other physical discipline that used to be part of the expected process of building discipline, pride, respect and esprit de core. Instead they switched to verbal ridicule and humiliation for discipline and it destroys what they are trying instill in the trainees, pride in themselves and their unit and respect for the command. When the boots move from basic on to their permanent duty stations there are lot of complaints from the non-coms and commanders about this exact problem - lack of discipline and respect for command. This is a very real issue and no real resolution on the map yet.
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It's a combination of things that is force wide, not just the Army. The Marines have less of a problem with it due to their smaller size and cohesion. It's a problem that is a perfect storm born of culture, the military being used as a political test tube and leadership not being properly trained, supervised and brought up through the ranks. The pass it on, it will be ok mentality run amok.
The Army is further hampered by the fact that that there is no one standard and that the standard deviates Unit to Unit, MOS to MOS. Frankly the Army needs to hit that reset button, kick loose a lot of this PC and buddy culture and have ONE standard across the board and get back to being an Army rather than a nanny daycare.
The Army is further hampered by the fact that that there is no one standard and that the standard deviates Unit to Unit, MOS to MOS. Frankly the Army needs to hit that reset button, kick loose a lot of this PC and buddy culture and have ONE standard across the board and get back to being an Army rather than a nanny daycare.
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Believe me, when I was USAF, I occasionally saw some similar stuff myself, albeit relatively rarely...honestly, I think all svcs probably have similar problems...I only saw such things a few times, of course, not on any sort of constant basis...I also occasionally saw such stuff in other svcs, as well, though, once again, only very rarely, certainly....
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I don't believe there is a single factor, but I'd argue that my Soldiers in every unit I served were no less disciplined than any service member. I believe discipline is dependent on the leader, not the branch.
It would be interesting to see a comparison of NJP by branch, but I doubt it be broken down by article of UCMJ violated.
If there is a difference, other than perceived, I'd lean to the towards the pre-enlistment perception of the recruit, and size of that branch. I'd add the drive of Marine NCOs to maintain that perception/ reputation.
A good source would be those who served in both.
It would be interesting to see a comparison of NJP by branch, but I doubt it be broken down by article of UCMJ violated.
If there is a difference, other than perceived, I'd lean to the towards the pre-enlistment perception of the recruit, and size of that branch. I'd add the drive of Marine NCOs to maintain that perception/ reputation.
A good source would be those who served in both.
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Sgt John de Nugent
I was in both the Marines and the Army, and infantry at that.
The Russians and Chinese have IRON discipline. Mark my words.
The Russians and Chinese have IRON discipline. Mark my words.
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I see it more outside of combat arms. It starts at basic and AIT. It may be the failure of the DS and instructors for not maintaining and upholding the standard. But you are correct. The Army has a discipline problem and it's much more abundant in non-combat arms MOSs.
If you are writing a paper I doubt anything on RP will be valid enough to give you good info. Just a bunch of individual experiences. I'd have to imagine there's so good literature out there in military-oriented databases that can give you some insight into the issue. Hopefully based on a larger population sample.
If you are writing a paper I doubt anything on RP will be valid enough to give you good info. Just a bunch of individual experiences. I'd have to imagine there's so good literature out there in military-oriented databases that can give you some insight into the issue. Hopefully based on a larger population sample.
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CPT(P) (Join to see)
I used the terms "military" and "discipline" and "culture" and received numerous hits on peer-reviewed articles that could help you in this topic. If you don't have access to a database send me your email and I can send you some of the articles I found.
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Capt Michael Wilford
Great follow up, LT., thanks! I will definitely use these keywords. I have access to a few great databases. For this exercise, the qualitative piece here in RP is helpful as I am getting a diverse set of responses.
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MSG Michael Gay
I served as an NCO all but 9 months of my service. 4 years active and 22 Reserve. I served from 1968 to 1994. I was promoted in 1974 to E-8 with only 6 years total service. Infantry duty, Combat Infantry duty (CIB), NCO Academy, Drill Sergeant Academy, and Drill Sergeant duty in four years of active duty. I never heard a Drill Sergeant refer to his peers as anything but Drill Sergeant. Leadership is the key! Always show respect to those appointed over your position. Always respect the rank of others. Never call soldiers by their first name. Is the term soldier when referring to any soldier. Respect the rank of all soldiers. A PFC should be respected as having EARNED the rank. Respect technical and tactical proficiency. I have know some of the very best and most decorated soldiers that ever served. LTC. Hackworth showed great respect to any warrior that was a leader. He truly respected an E-5 Sergeant, First Lieutenant, Captain equally. He loved his men and soon all of them respected then loved him. He turned one of the worst Infantry Battalions into the best in Vietnam. He was the most decorated Soldier at in the Army. He had eight Purple Hearts and multiples of each of the valor awards, except the Medal of Honor. He was wounded as an O-5 at least once. Respect worked both was for him. Expect great leadership, show great leadership. Praise in formation, criticism should only be done privately. Alway be available and approachable to your subordinates. Senior NCOs are the real key to respect. Much of the formality should be eliminated in actual combat units in combat areas. In those areas, leaders should treat their troops as a rope. You can pull a rope but not push it. LEAD!
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That is one of the reasons I decided to move on after 10 years. Command was making it impossible for us NCO's to really discipline or utilize corrective training to get the attention of a wayward Joe. Heck, I even got wrote up by my commander for raising my voice to one of my troops. I joined in 1987 and was very impressed by my Drills, their know how, love of their profession, but they were strict disciplinarians. But, I became a better man for it and am a good man today because of it. In the mid 90's, discipline started to slip and we got troops who talked back and such. So, I cut bait and got a good civilian career instead. I know, I had 10 years in, but finished my 20 in the National Guard.
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I have said this so many times in the last few years and I will tell my story again. Fort Knox October 1959, 1 AM. The buss from Cleveland pulls up to the reception center and stops. The first voice we heard was someone in a deep authoritative voice telling us to get off the buss and line up. This is as I said took place at 1 AM and by eight the next morning one had his identity taken and the start of someone new. Sgt Arnett and Sgt Sparrow drilled us in self-respect and respect for our country and others. The eight weeks were hard but at the end of Basic training we had great respect for our leaders and the service. I know the training was about the same for all branches of service because in 1961 I went into the Air Force and started that at Lackland AFB in Texas. I had great respect for my country, the military and the leaders I served under. The problem now is a drill instructor almost has to say please to get someone to do something. Anytime you give someone an order the first consideration is will the recipient like the command and does it somehow infringe on their rights. I think everyone should watch the first part of "Full Metal Jacket" and see what they think of that. that is what I went through and I owe my lift to my country and the military way at that time.
I was a Wind child out of Clevelant Ohio and because of the Military I went on the become a Commercial Pilot, an Electrical Engineer and worked in law enforcement. Thank you America and all of the people of the military. Fort Knox to Fort Jackson to Lackland to Amerillo to Moody to Robins AFB.
I was a Wind child out of Clevelant Ohio and because of the Military I went on the become a Commercial Pilot, an Electrical Engineer and worked in law enforcement. Thank you America and all of the people of the military. Fort Knox to Fort Jackson to Lackland to Amerillo to Moody to Robins AFB.
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First off, in my humble opinion, being thru both services and both basic and boot camp. The Army tended to be more compassionate and understanding to whiners and complainers. I went in the Army Basic training in my Jr year of high school on a split option program. I then separated from the USANG into the Marines in my Senior year and did boot camp after I graduated. Wow! What a freakin wake up call. You really learn who is God and you don’t disrespect God, cause God can make your life hell. Not to mention, your fellow recruits can make your life hell just as easy. So, you learn discipline. Now, that being said, the Army Grunts, Rangers, Green Beanies, and the D boys are a different breed and show more Lock and Cock than the other MOS individuals. Let’s not forget the Combat Arms units like Arty and Tankers. They also have the same mentality. Sadly, in the Combat Arms section you have sh@thirds just like the Marines. The Marines tend to deal with the Sh@tbirds faster.
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I truly believe that it's happening in all branches. They old saying is that the military is a good indicator of the broad section of our country and how we behave.
Marines do have a stronger more disciplinary regiment. However look back 5, 10 years ago and I think even you will see even the Marines aren't as discipline as they once were.
With the woke culture. the PC movement, and trying to please everyone, the military is going to feel it. I saw in my time from 1970's to 1990's , bar kept getting lowered to appease those who were at fringe of the PC and Woke movement. Now 30 years later is worse then ever.
However you did get it right it does have a lot to do with discipline. I cringe many times when I read post from young soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. One can see, the entitlement that just seems to ooze out the comments on RP.
Marines do have a stronger more disciplinary regiment. However look back 5, 10 years ago and I think even you will see even the Marines aren't as discipline as they once were.
With the woke culture. the PC movement, and trying to please everyone, the military is going to feel it. I saw in my time from 1970's to 1990's , bar kept getting lowered to appease those who were at fringe of the PC and Woke movement. Now 30 years later is worse then ever.
However you did get it right it does have a lot to do with discipline. I cringe many times when I read post from young soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. One can see, the entitlement that just seems to ooze out the comments on RP.
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