Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

Personally, I think it's do with American society moving away from being unquestioning of authority. Young people see politicians on both sides acting like complete and utter fools, and as such, are maybe a little less likely to buy the whole indoctrination spiel the Army lays on them in the early days.
They see a few wars, and absolutely nothing to show for them, except a few very rich white men, and a bunch of nutty conspiracy theories. Why should they have any confidence in their leaders? It's not like their leaders are proving themselves capable in any way, shape, or form.

Add to that, the sheer stupid lengths that many military leaders will go to in order to exercise authority. Case in point? Another discussion that has me all kinds of twisted, where a female is told by her Platoon Sergeant through her squad leader that she needs to wear a bra when OFF DUTY. And the vast majority of responding officers and NCOs in full support of the leader. This. THIS is one of the major reasons I could see lower enlisted joining the Army, and coming to the realization that they might just be surrounded by fools.

Now.. I am not saying the officers and NCOs ARE fools. Just indoctrinated into a HOOOOORAHHHHHHH!!-type mentality that just doesn't play with an entire generation of enlistees who are seeing America fall apart around them.

This problem is not unique to the army it is rampant in all parts of society. The liberal brainwashing of our youth has come home to roost the standards have been lowered across the board. everyone gets a participation trophy and no one can be disciplined for anything. We cant hurt feelings by giving grades in school or keeping score in sport events. This society in general is seing the bad effects of this in every phase of life. In schools the kids disrespect the teachers and even physically attack them. It was shown in Florida the sheriff was told by the politicians not to arrest kids on high schools because they wanted to try to show a reduction in crime rates under thier leadership. well the result was the parkland shooting where the shooter had double digit police complaints against him but never charged on any . But they were quick to blame guns for the problem. In New York city this summer the police had water and buckets thrown on them and were afraid to make arrests because the liberal mayor would not stand up for them and feared they would lose their jobs. In Washington state the radical Antifia wear masks while they protest and destroy property and attack conservative reporters who try to show their violent unlawful ways and they are defended by the liberal mayors and the police are told to stand down and let them brake the law because they are on the side of the party in power. The sanctuary state and city people demonize ice and do not allow the police to help them which makes it unsafe for everyone. Liberal colleges do not allow conservative speakers on campus and allow violent protests against them and the police stand by and watch letting the damage and injury's go unchecked. I can site many more examples. The really sad part is the main street media is run by them so you never hear of most of these problems . I believe this is part of the problem that allowed us to get to this braking point.

It’s not just the Army the Navy and Air Force has the same problems.
The problem stems from a lack of leadership from above and enforcement of PC policies, If a junior has a conflict with a senior all he has to do is accuse the senior of sexual misconduct and the senior reputation is destroyed (guilty until proven innocence).

Inability to uphold the standard. Or just a blatant disregard for it.

I'm concerned that changes in discipline may be the influence of both politics and PC Issues. Having served and currently my son serving the differences in discipline are blatantly apparent. I don't know the answer yet I'd tend to question if it were an issue of both society and potential repercussions on leadership, at every level, if PC concerns are the destructively stifling.

I was stationed at a Naval Hospital as a junior enlisted in the 70;s and knew sailors who would avoid certain walkways to reduce required saluting (and junior officers who would frequent certain routes to garner respect). In the early 80's as a Marine Artillery Officer when the Regiment was shooting at Ft. Bragg, I went with a couple of other LT's to clothing sales. We were not saluted by numerous SPC's and below despite being obviously commissioned (USMC wore shiny bars on lapels). In the 90's + in the Army, it would depend on where I was regarding respect of rank.
I think that it is about Command Climate. In the Mariines the respect of rank comes all the way down the ladder by culture. In the Army I think that although it is cultural priority, it tends to be more locally enforced by command and Staff NCO's. I believe the expectations are lowered from the beginning when it is more a question of numbers rather than quality.
On the other hand, in the elite units I have been associated or familiarized with in the Army (e.g. SF, Rangers, etc.), while the trappings of respect are less obvious, the cultural exhibitions are there (at least within the organizations; somewhat less for an outsider).

There are a lot of discipline issue in the Army, one that I see is soldiers walk past infractions all the time some of this me be they are scared to say anything or they too do not know the reg. I also see people referring to pay grades and not ranks. As leaders we have to enforce these standards, the Army makes it easy there is a manual for everything.

It's because soldiers have cried so much to thier parents, and thier parents went and cried to thier congress members and that lead to NCOs getting told that we had to back off.

As I look back, to my basic training, the biggest take away was to not do anything to get my buddies killed. This brought unit and mission cohesion. It also brought the idea of self sacrifice for others and the greater good. It was transforming.

Sir, I believe it starts in BCT. Prior to retiring I worked in a recruiting command and I had many soldiers return saying how lax it was, and many even stated how disappointing it was due to lack of discipline and challenge. There is also the issue with retention, they feel that if they are too harsh, they will not make retention goals which then get reflected on commander OERs, and other evaluation factors. Another factor is, with retention issues in certain MOSes there are some kids getting promoted way too fast. So as younger "more hip" young NCO's they don't hold their buddies (PFCs - Spec 4's) to a standard, either because they want to be friends more than they do a leader, or they simply don't know how to lead. Lastly, the command has to support the actions of the NCO, and this includes the Platoon Sgt. and Platoon Leader. When a soldier is a discipline problem, I believe that the squad/team leader also needs to be counseled as to why his/her soldier is lacking said discipline.

Lack of Respect, Good Order and Discipline go hand in hand with a lack of proper effective leadership. A challenge for sure in the more touchy feely stress card era of our modern military. Today's leaders more than likely have their hands tied and so the "troops" are able to get away with a lot more then perhaps during times past. Morale issues from enduring multiple deployments, entitlement running amok, political correctness, lack of proper accountability for ones actions are just some of the many issues that cause this general lack of respect and discipline you speak of. Great Post Michael. I've not spent much time on here but when I received notice of this discussion in my email I had to come check it out. BZ and All The Best with your paper!

Because we can't all be infantry.

It's the unit. I was in the Infantry and a Combat Engineer and believe me, we didn't have issues like that! As an NCO , we handled business. What you are seeing are the hobbits, pogues, rear echelon units. Non combat units young Capt. I began my service in 1985, also an Army brat, dad was 30 yr MSG, Vietnam veteran, I'm an old school NCO.

Rank, no rank. If I ever had a little shit disrespect me I would tear him a new ass, regulations be damned. I saw NCOs get disrespected back in the 80s because they shouldn't have been an NCO in the first place. I was an E-6 and lived in the barracks with the soldiers for several tours. They knew who they could push and I wasn't one of them. When I was in my room whether it was weekend or not it was "all quiet on the western front." I wasn't the only one though. There were many NCOs I knew that wouldn't take no shit. If I were in the Army today I would probably be brought up on assault charges my first day…….but I wouldn't be disrespected.

Not sure if anyone else experienced this issue but in in recent years during my second time in the Army, I served as a Platoon Sergeant for a while and when assigning daily tasks such as PMCS at the motor pool or other details that would come up, I found that a lot of soldiers would actually pull out the race card and accuse the high ups of singling out certain individuals out because of their race. I personally took offence to this as tried to assign tasks to my soldiers as I saw they could actually accomplish the mission in a timely manner with minimal supervision. When it came to discipline it was the same way. there was always that race card coming into play.

In my experience, it has a lot to do with the quality of the individuals we are selecting to serve in our military. MANY bad choices were forced onto drill sergeants and first units when I came through in the beginning. Having to backfill the servicemembers that left prior to OEF and OIF quickly without properly vetting or training our troops didn't help matters, either. Out of nearly 300 recruits who came through with me in 2000, more than 60% had criminal records. Over half of THAT population had felonies! And that's just one problem.

17 Marines arrested for human trafficking and you don’t have this type of issue. Better wake up Captain.

Is it an issue of discipline, or a matter of observed customs and courtesies? Are they failing to perform their assigned tasks, or just not locking up in casual conversation?

I never felt respected because a soldier stood at parade rest and adressed me by title at the beginning and end of every sentence. Respect was when they spoke to me candidly, heeded my counsel, and when appropriate, carried out my orders.

VOLAR was a problem, down grading was, Untrained soldiers replacing trained Solders after the down grade, auto promotions, on and on. We started injecting the Army with ill trained Officers and NCO'S at all levels. Now today well try not to let this interfere with my Civilian Job. JMT

Is this true about all MOS-es ? I don't see how the Infantry can lack discipline and be combat functional !

TOP Furr is correct. From what I have seen (besides men holding hands in uniform; I guess that's alright but don't get caught kissing a female if you are a male; there's rules about that undermining discipline) . I don't care who you plank off hours but keep the same standard. That's the crux. A lack of stressors on troops from the 1st day is probably the genesis of the problem EX: The last mission or operation I was in; in Africa. Our JSOTF had been up 36 hours to include crew time which was busted somewhere that day; nobody remembers. it was during the Rwandan disaster. We were in the field SCIF when an airman walked in from the JTF and wanted to see me as I was the JSOTF J4. I told him that I would get with him in a few (as I was busy with 5 senior NONCOMS and POs and the OPSO) and please leave the SCIF. The guard literally fell out at his seat so he walked in. The airman said he wanted to talk now and I politely told him to get the fuck out or he would be arrested by the SPs. He came back a few minutes later with a sorry assed AF provider. Our JSOTF senior enlisted was a STS type, E-8. Former 24 STS type. bad ass. The provider wanted to know who I was and he began a soliloquy of why I was "mean" to his E2 by saying "FUCK". The Ranger commo guy and Senior MSG XXXX pulled me off the couple. They never came by the JSOTF but they sent written messages. But the point is WTF is E2 "Smedley" lack of a tough skin because I said the word FUCK? BTW who is he? This was serious business and this kid wanted to see me tight then and there. WTF?

reading all the responses reminds me of the six blind men of indonesia .The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.
so each man was part right, but blind to the whole truth. :-) USMC 1961 1965

Anecdotal information should not be used as fact in developing a White Paper on any subject. Just saying...

This is said countless of times through different generations, one constantly trying to out brag the one after the next. There’s nothing stopping a PV2 who doesn’t care anymore to tell their 1SG to “Shut up”, that’s not a generation thing that’s a individual thing, always has been. Senior leaders see what they want to see, they see the one soldier not going to parade rest for the 1SG, but not the group of junior enlisted who’s ready to do anything in the world their NCOs tell them to make an impression and be a great group of Soldiers. The Army is huge, you’re going to see a lot more discipline issues then you would in the Marines, nothing a good nco can fix.

When I was a Buck SGT. I had one of my Pvt's tell me I didn't have enough rank to tell him what to do. When I got thru with him, he had no doubt that I did indeed have enough rank.

Because I've been out so long (retired in 2002), I can't really comment intelligently about army discipline now, but I can say this is not the first time and probably not the last time the army has had to and will have to go thru this cycle. During and after the Vietnam War the army had serious discipline problems including near mutiny in isolated incidents.

Because you’re dismissing them as ‘lower enlisted’ instead of mentoring them as ‘junior enlisted’

Honestly I wouldn’t use the “army” as a whole soldier discipline has always been maintained at a nco level Iv seen soldiers with great discipline and some without any and it’s been directly related to first line supervisors and their interactions by getting comfortable with their soldiers. It’s a lifestyle that’s what the army is it is not a job it’s a life style change and people seem to want to be liked by their own soldiers which they don’t go about it the proper way and leave room for that indiscipline. If I as a Sgt ever saw my soldier not go to parade rest talking to any NCO or attention to any officer then I correct them on the spot and make sure to fix it if my soldier ever felt it was ok to tell a 1sg he isn’t better then him because if his rank then I failed somewhere but I’d be damn sure to fix it quick. My soldiers discipline and any soldier 1-4 discipline is directly related to how they are trained and taught yea you have that one soldier. Who does what he wants well that’s easy to fix process him out of the military if he can’t play by our rules

At a previous duty station a general asked the ORSA team to answer this exact question. After collecting the data and running a regressive analysis on it, it wasn’t rank that was the defining predictor. It was age and to some degree, whether or not you lived in your own between Mom’s house and the Army. But it was an interesting age relationship because the curve dips down for folks around 25 to 35, but then cycles up so there is some lack of discipline uptick in higher ages. A lot of that was due to the SIR data. Lots of domestic spouse on spouse issues with the higher ages that resulted in disciplinary action. There is also a lot of variance between MOSs suggesting there is some leadership differences among our various job branches or our branches tend to attract different types of people.

I have been out for a few years now but I would think it is not any worse now then ever before. I believe a lot of kids join the military for a variety of reasons and some of them become disenchanted quickly and fall back to their undisciplined ways.

The major problem is guys are getting promoted at a rapid pace some guys still wet behind the ears in the Army have not even deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan and they already Ssg

Just like you said, it’s not only the jr. enlisted. Unfortunately it’s not new.
Back in the early 90’s, my company had a SSG. Once he got in his car (while still in BDU’s). He would remove his cover & put on a Malcom X hat.
When his superiors would try & correct him. He would play the race card, even on the Top who was Hispanic.
So nothing got resolved.

It is adaptation to today's culture. Everyone is so easily offended and we don't want that. AR 350-6 is Trainee Leadership, and the trainee has many more rights under it than someone who has never been in TRADOC could ever understand. And the Privates are briefed on it from day one at the Reception Station. Some of it is good, some not. They cancelled end of course testing for Basic, give out a participation trophy patch in a "patching ceremony" because the Privates don't have combat patches and are jealous. What Division Commander was it that was going to forbid senior personnel from wearing combat patches because the Privates hadnt' earned one?

I can not say for sure. Its stands to reason that the government has run over the military as a whole. They have to have better training and higher physical standards in some cases. Drill instructors are not able to do there job. Sreamong is not there job. Training is.

The Army’s discipline started to slide in 2005 from what I observed personally. But so did the Marine Corps. I will never forget a bunch of marines at Fort Irwin (NTC) who decided to drink in the cantonment area and run their mouths like little kids. A SSG had to police up not just his joes, but the LT as well. It was very sad and pathetic to watch.
Generally speaking, discipline varies based on environment. Combat arms will always have more discipline than a medical unit for example, and for good reason. An E3 in a medical unit must be able to question a doctors (officer) orders and ask the why if needed. The doctor has to recognize a teaching moment vs. a PFC preventing a mistake. In combat arms, if you are told to take the hill, you take the damn hill. These behaviors affect overall discipline.

It begins with recruitment, the size of the Corps has always lent to the availability of recruits, the Corps can afford to pick and choose from the nations available population. The mere size of the Army and recruiting challenges results in waiver after waiver from the available population. Those with prior service and RE codes that are unfaivorable, young adults with backgrounds who have files sealed, etc. when you shake the tree of the Few and the Proud the pool to refill the ranks is large, when you shake that tree from an Army of many the pool is reduced.

Once in service the culture of our citizens begins to take shape within the ranks, tats, hair styles, mommy issues, the why generation and simply the why not generation. Those who did not respect their teachers, and parents will not likely respect the authority of those they do not know. Once it is evident that they are not fitting in, the process begins. Unfortunately that leads to what else culture provides, young leaders who have slid up in an environment based in questions.

These young leaders who are ill equipped based on the own moral fiber and lack of true identity, fail to coach, council and mentor in a way that is substantive. Back to the tree, the Marine tree is a bush in the grand scheme, the Army’s in essence a forest.

This had been true for decades, I entiered service in 1980, culture had both positive and negative effects, even though discipline was at a peak, there were those who failed to make the grade and were sent home in short order. The forest has deep roots, the trees before the forest will always stand tall, the saplings who fall will be either better or lesser for the ware. Society is he root cause, reshaping men and women is more challenging as society has become much more of a complex machine.

I ramble but if you read into the text, you will find that it is as it was, it is simply bigger and more complex, the issue of societal norms, Family values, and Core beliefs. Is the top 1 percent the same as it was, and who exactly is competing for them, while offering what they lack.

Thank you for your service.

The first question that comes to mind: from where did these low-rank recruits learn to be disrespectful? They had to see it occurring elsewhere & decided to emulate it. Meaning someone of higher
rank failed to enforce discipline. Oh oh......now the recruit has the green light to continue his path to eventual dishonorable discharge.
Now my next question: what favor is a soldier of higher rank doing to that recruit by failing to enforce discipline?
What I mean is: eventually that recruit will return to civilian life & there’s no company I know that’ll put up with undisciplined behavior reinforced while in the military.
So now we have an undisciplined vet with no job and probably an arrest record.
All because one individual of higher rank was too lazy to enforce discipline several years earlier. Perhaps that one moment of reinforcing discipline could have changed the life story of a former refusenik.

Lots of great comments- I agree with 99%, but I’ll offer another thought.

Is some of this the cause of the protracted GWOT? I think the lack of professionalism in the Army at the end of Vietnam was pretty well documented.
Leaders churn and burn so fast and so many were simply biding time to get out, discipline was someone else’s problem. Add in what everyone else is saying, but I think a constantly deploying force will suffer a drop in professionalism over time.

Just a thought.

Let me add my 2 cent into this, its because a lot of high ranking people think they are more of a person than say the lower enlisted and they had enough. Remarks complete

IMO because much of the NCO corps has lost its backbone. We spend way too much time coddling and "mentoring" and much less time enforcing standards. When I was a private my leaders asked me to do nothing. I was told what to do and how to do it. I get frustrated with an endless string of "why?" after giving simple, concise, and clear instructions. I once told a new private to go ask top the question of why. They returned and the private in the front leaning rest was told, "why...because I directed you to." I'm not going to answer why on the battlefield and someone's hesitation or less than full commitment may get someone or some people needlessly killed. I am sick of why.

From all the talk I have heard from my time in the Navy we had a slightly similar issue. For us the East Coast tended to be more strict, disciplined and tighter on the rules than the West Coast Navy. The same could also be said for the Big Navy (Aircraft Carriers) they tended to be more of a corporate structure and less tolerant of breaking the rules while at the same time you were just another face in the crowd. Conversely in the Small Navy ( Destoyers, Crusiers, Frigates) we where a lot less formal and a little more personal. We could be more understanding but if you stepped out of line everybody knew about. Also we had smaller groups with clear line for the chain of command which I think allowed us to handing things more directly and in house then a larger group of people like the army. CO->XO->Department head-> Specialty Officer (Main Propulsion Assistant, Damage Contol Assistant)->Division Officer. Command Master Chief (E-9)-> Departmental Leading Chief Petty Officer (LCPO) (E-8)-> Divison LCPO(E-7)-> Leading Petty Officer (LPO) (E-6). Also I would say that the rank culture in the Navy is vastly different. E1-3 are generally all treated as the same and you don’t have an E3 bossing and telling E1’s around and if you did people would raise an eyebrow and probably stop you. E4’s aren’t really look at too differently other than a you should know better / get your act together because you’re gonna start being in a real leadership position in the future. E5 is when hey you’re 2nd Class Petty Officer you know what needs to be done and help those bellow you get the job done. E6 your in charge now and if it’s wrong fix it. E7 you’re coming to me because something is really messed up and the Ship is gonna be affected because of it or you can’t find the 1st class.

I've served in the Active duty Marines, Army and reserves Army National Guard, Air Force, Marines. 16 years spanning 1974 to 2004. I have seen the real underbelly of the Service with murders, rapes , assaults. The crime and drug use in the Marines 1974 to 75 was rampant until they cracked down in 1976. Drug testing, dogs etc. I use to escort prisoners
.. mostly murders and worked some in a correctional facility..

It was Rampant in the Guard aswell until the DOD cracked down after the USS Nimitz crash in 1981. The Guard was relaxed and was fueled by drinking and drugs. Many troops were gang members who were given the choice jail or guard. What Mayhem that turned out to be. We had assaults and murders. The Air Force was very relaxed with no problems. The Gulf War era Guard was professional and Active Duty like. The 2003 Army was professional but with super bad behavior by women. The language and sex. Saw some assault and rape aftermath, normally dependent wives playing around at the club while husband is deployed. During my time I have seen or came across some really bad behavior by the Officer Corps. NCO's.. Normally prostitution... Adultry... Sexual harassment..etc.. my behaviour was not the best at times. Thus the CPL rank. But I would conclude that discipline is from the top down and if you give a inch.. human nature will take the mile.

Attitude and behavior reflect leadership. You could ask, “why does the Army (or military, in general) have a discipline issue with the higher enlisted and officer ranks?”

It’s not a simple question, and there isn’t one simple answer. Additionally, it’s not limited to the Army. Having worked primarily in joint environments, it was my experience that the Marines most often confused ‘discipline’ as a synonym for ‘professionalism’ or ‘respect’. However, They don’t mean the same thing. Marines were often the most unprofessional, disrespectful and ultimately, ineffective team members.

Much like headlines with higher ranking folks (across all services) acting ridiculous, headlines involving Marines doing ridiculous sh*t aren’t hard to find. From self-inflicted gutshots to mass roundups at battalion formations, to murdering Soldiers to etc etc, “Marines acting crazy” is an easy, common story to find.

The only thing that the Marines are elite at is instilling the idea in Marines that they are elite. But the Corps absolutely has a discipline issue; as much as any branch of service. They’re just more hyper focused on looking good to support the image. That stated, the Army isn’t perfect. There are a lot of valid answers to the question, and each would warrant their own paper.

A simple one is that as new generations come up in the Services, the older ones find them undisciplined. The WWI guys thought the WWII/Korea guys were undisciplined. The WWII/Korea guys thought the Vietnam guys were undisciplined. The Vietnam guys thought the Gulf war guys were undisciplined. The Gulf War guys thought the GWOT guys are undisciplined. The GWOT guys are going to think The ____ War guys are undisciplined. Etc. Just the nature of the beast. It’s kinda like why parents don’t like their kids’ music. And the Grandparents didn’t like the Parents’ music.

Another simple one is that folks are just more aware of large scale, service wide problems. 20 years ago, if a Marine in DC shot himself in the stomach or if a Soldier in Florida got arrested for drug smuggling, odds are that the average PFC Snuffy wasn’t going to hear about. But in the past few decades, things like 24 hour nonstop news channels and smartphones and the internet have exploded like a Gremlin that ate past midnight. Every transgression, big and small, is available to just about everyone all the time. That makes it harder to diminish, and also makes it appear amplified. Similar to crime statistics in the US. Every statistic indicates that violent crime and mass shootings are at low points, but with heightened, nonstop coverage, it simply seems like they’re getting worse.

Another answer would be as to how you define ‘discipline’. I touched on it previously, but ‘discipline’ isn’t synonymous with ‘respect’ or ‘professionalism’. If I had to ask a service member to drive my car 1000 miles, and get it there in two days with no dents and a full tank of gas, I’d ask a Marine. If I had to ask a service member to drive my Girlfriend 1000 miles, and make sure she gets there in two days with no dents, I would ask any other branch. Who cares if the car gets a few scratches. The girl, I trust. The average Marine, Maybe not so much.

Ultimately, leaders get out what they put in. There has and will always be good/bad, disciplined/undisciplined Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen. It’s not a new phenomenon. But ultimately, If leaders want more discipline, then leaders need to conduct themselves in a more disciplined manner.

Sorry for getting a bit long winded. Best of luck.

Shoot, I don't know. A lot of the long-timers seem to think so, so while it's anecdotal, and perhaps worthy of a little pinch of salt, I am inclined to listen to what they have to say. I was only in for 8 years between my Active and Reserve time--and that just ended a couple years ago--so I have no actual historical perspective. I would echo what someone else here said when they noted there are differences between the combat and soft-skill MOSs; insofar as what I witnessed. Whether that's an observation that holds across the board or is applicable to, say, just soft-skill MOS Reservists and not Active I don't' know. I do know discipline was very important when I was on Active Duty though.

Just my limited observations. Take 'em for what they're worth.

You're not wrong. And the problem starts with the NCO's that don't enforce the standard, and those NCO's that don't follow the standards.