Posted on May 16, 2022
MAJ Norm Michaels
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This social experiment on soldiers was started in the late 1960s, and it mostly died away in the late 1980s, with the exception of SP4. Is a team leader SP4 any less of a leader than a corporal?
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The US Army is the only branch that E-4 is not an NCO Junior leader including the Coast Guard. E-4’s as NCO’s builds leadership and Responsibilities. I served in the Marine Corps 10yrs and Army 8yrs and always gave my Spc-E-4’s more responsibility and duties and pushed them to the board. All the OTHER Branches promote their E-3’s on time and grade to NCO. Yes in the Marine Corps you will deploy with a ton of L/CPU’s and come back with a ton of Cpl’s but we in the Corps treat our young L/Cpl’s as leaders and train them to be Cpls by assigning them to Crew Chiefs in my old MOS AMTRAC’s and as Team Leaders. I would put any of my old L/Cpls against any Army Spc’s at the time, the Army has a training and leadership problem and needs to revamp their rank structure. All the other Military Branches can’t be wrong!
MAJ Norm Michaels
MAJ Norm Michaels
3 y
Amen
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Lt Col Jim Coe
Lt Col Jim Coe
3 y
In tHe USAF, an E4 is a Senior Airman (SRA). A SRA is not an NCO. The SRA wears 3 stripes but isn’t a Sargent. The fir
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
>1 y
Lt Col Jim Coe - As I recall it, depends on whether the star on the stripes is bright or dull. Bright equal Sergeant and dull equal Senior airman as I recall, and both E-4.
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MSG Stan Hutchison
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For a short period of time, I was laterally transferred from Staff Sergeant E-6 to Specialist 6. I had moved into a computer programmer position and no longer had troops to supervise. I made E-7 and was promoted to SFC. back supervising troops.
IMO, the idea of specialist was good at the time when we had a large standing force. Now, probably not so much.
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SPC Edward Abney
SPC Edward Abney
1 y
I believe that we need a "large standing force", to face the Global conflicts that are just over the horizon. Bring back the Draft!
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
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Edited 3 y ago
My understanding was that if the Army made them CPLs, it would cut severely into troops available for fatigue and other details. NCOs cannot be on fatigue details. So in order to have enough soldiers for KP, area police, rock painting, etc. they kept Speedy 4. Otherwise, you would wear out your Privates.
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MSG Thomas Currie
MSG Thomas Currie
2 y
You have obviously never been in one of the several Active Army units were the lowest rank in the unit is an SFC. Guess who gets to mow the grass and do police call in a Readiness Group or any of the other specialized headquarters units.

On the other hand, I had also been in units where the reverse notion caused ridiculous 'solutions' -- at one time 1st ID (Fwd) had a policy that only "NCOs" could be CQ, SDNCO, or Sergeant of the Guard. I suppose this made some sort of sense in the Infantry, but it was a serious problem in the tank battalion and cavalry troop, where there were no E5 SGT positions, all the E5 positions were SP5 (despite being combat arms). The only way for an E5 to actually be a SGT was if carried in a SSG slot on the UMR (which never happened because 1SG's and CSM's hated to see the "grade unequal" error message on the UMR). The "solution" was to appoint all the SP5's as Acting Sergeants.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
2 y
MSG Thomas Currie - At USASOC, when we were in the old confinement facility at Liberty, before the current building was built, had a green beanie SFC that took care of grass. When we moved, civilians did it. Never could get the 82d post support BDE to do it. LOL
As for grade, a SP5 was an E-5, the grade would have been equal, but the rank would not be.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
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Sp-4 full bird corporal.
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SGT Frank Barnes
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I was a corporal as an MP, back in '86, because promotions were frozen, and I had been acting as Patrol Sergeant for months, with no end in sight. My Platoon Sergeant did the work to reward me. In 90, while I was MI, I was able to make a case that one my Specialists was acting as an NCO, leading an Analyst team, and I mean leading it. I got him his two stripes. He pulled 20 years. I don't know about now. But back then, if you believed in your troop, and were willing to put in the work, he could get that 2 stripes. It was just a matter of the leader being willing to put in the work to reward his troop, and recognize his effort.
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SFC Jerald Bottcher
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I personally think that getting rid of the Spec 5 through Spec 7 ranks was a big mistake. Not everyone is cut out to be a leader. an NCO whether Corporal, Sergeant, Sgt 1st Class, 1st Sgt Sgt Maj is a leader. There are a lot of jobs in the military that require a great deal of technical expertise but do not
require leadership abilities. A senior specialist can still be as accountable as anyone else in their pay grades. There are a lot of folks who want to be a doer and not a leader. The current structure forces them to become a leader even if they are not a good fit for it. As a result a lot of good folks leave when they don't move up
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CPL (Non-Rated)
CPL (Join to see)
2 y
Alot of E-5 positions don't actually require the soldier to even be of a proper MOS. So most of the time the SPC knows more about the job than the squad leader, in many MOS that is very disruptive. I was in patriot air defense. The NCO was one for a totally unrelated section and didn't know how we were supposed to operate.
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MSG Logistics Nco
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A SP4 that's been selected, officially, to be a team leader should be laterally promoted to Corporal.
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SFC Eddy Meador
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Edited 3 y ago
Actually they dropped the "Four" and left it at Specialist back in the mid 80's (1986/87). A Specialist doesn't have the NCO leadership authority of a Corporal. So you could be a team leader as a Specialist but lack authority to give a command (what some folks call orders). While stationed at Fort Drum, NY working in the 10th Personnel Service Company, Personnel Actions Branch, our section was without a Team Leader for an extended period of time, only the Section NCO (SSG) in place. Our Company Commander (MAJ/05) who was also the Adjutant General for the post decided to issue a Lateral Appointment for me to CPL/E4, based upon my abilities, MOS knowledge, and informal leadership qualities. No pay change, just the authority to direct duties and responsibilities. People say Rank has is privileges, but with that came responsibilities.

Just have to add that certain MOS's have special duties, knowledge, and training requirements that should be recoginized with the E4 Pay Grade, but not necessarily require the leadership Rank.
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SPC Woody Bullard
SPC Woody Bullard
>1 y
Reading your post on the lateral appointment to Corporal E-4 was interesting to me
as I was in a situation in the 558 MP Company. We were short on NCOs so I received
OJT along with another SP4 to work a Sergeant E-5 post on our duty roster. I along
with the other SP4 worked the SGT E-5 post excellent enough that our platoon Staff
Sergeant with the green light from the Operation SFC continued using me and the
other SP4 in that NCO post. We never received the lateral over to Corporal but had
the same responsibilities that a NCO would have at that post. We worked at the
"B" gate building entrance gate to the nuclear weapon exclusion zone signing persons
and vehicles in and then out of the zone on the duty log. We gave photo ID badges
to authorized persons entering the zone and collected the ID badges back when they
departed. We also watched over a alarm board for exclusion zone intrusion alerts.
The duty was mostly paper work keeping the gate duty log updated with all other
MP assignments in the exclusion zone. The post was important enough to be
assigned to a SGT E-5. Myself and the other MP were senior time in grade SP4s.
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SPC Vonnie Jones
SPC Vonnie Jones
2 y
Hummmm, I was inb1980-89 I was known as a SP4, in GE I was a squad leader during field duty, 260+ days inv1985, (hhb divarty 3ID) I also went to PLDC so I never really saw the distinction that post are making. During my short time at the hospital if I remember correctly one of my supervisor was a SP 6. I guess your responsibilities are given to you by how responsible you are. Hey in Graf a Corporal and SGT tried to walk to the the Czech border, I with my SP4 self may sure their toes didn't get amputated by frost bite lol. I have seen SP4 with EFMB badges and more. Maybe the military should keep the rank of Specialist you can be a specialist and leader in your given MOS.
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CPL (Non-Rated)
CPL (Join to see)
2 y
SPC Woody Bullard You were probably both missing BLC. That started to be the requirement for lateral promotion to CPL. It happened to me, I changed MOS and got hurt right before my BLC date. I had already been a squad leader in an E-5 position because I had time in service over the rest of my team. I would have rather stayed a SPC. They force you to promote or leave, no matter how good you are at your job.
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MSG Richard Medina
MSG Richard Medina
2 y
I too was Lateral appointment to CPL, but as a PFC in the Bn S4 section. Because I was in a position that worked with SGT/SSGs in company supply. No one wanted to deal with a PFC. So my Battery CDR temporarily promoted me to (Acting Jack) CPL, with no change in pay. I must say that I was older than most PFCs in 1984. So my mentality and maturity was also older(24), than the 18yr old PFCs. I went back to being a PFC when I went to Germany along with changing my uniform to being in compliance with my rank and not the Lateral appointment.
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SFC William McMillian
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I was a 52E Prime Power Production Specialist operating a research reactor, SP6 promoted to SFC. I did not want to be a leader, I had worked hard to be specialized in nuclear and did not want the responsibilities associated with a leadership position and the distinct possibility I would be assigned to another specialty.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
SPC Lyle Montgomery
>1 y
I was offered e5 in Nam but turned it down. I was a M60 gunner the whole time that I was there and didn't feel that I was qualified to be a squad leader, which I wasn't. A lot more deserving grunt got it.I just had a few months to do stateside after my tour in Nam and after my 2 year draftee enlistment, I knew for sure that I wanted no part of the Army in my future. I told the re up NCO that the Army would have to burn the mountain and sift the ashes to get my young ass back in.
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SGM Michael Culbertson
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Sir, the Army attempted to differentiate between NCO and technicians long before the 1960s. The post-Civil War Army had ranks like Quartermaster Sergeant, Commissary Sergeant, Ordnance Sergeant Saddler Sergeant, Farrier, Principal Trumpeter, etc. By the end of WWI there were over 120 insignia of enlisted rank, most of which reflected the skills of the individual soldiers. When GA John Pershing became Chief of Staff of the Army after the war, he directed that all enlisted Soldiers wear chevrons that only showed their pay grades: Master Sergeant, Technical Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Sergeant, Corporal. During WWII, the Technician system was devised, so that Soldiers with necessary skills could get paid more without being given NCO responsibilities for which they were not trained. Technician Third Grade (Tec3) was in the same pay grade as SSgt, a Tec4 was paid the same as a Sgt, and a Tec5 was paid the same as a Corp. The Technician system went away in 1948, and the Specialist system started in 1955. The SP9 and SP8 ranks were discontinued in 1968, SP7 went away in 1977, and SP6 and SP5 went away in 1985. Today's Army sends college graduates to basic training as SPC, as a recruiting incentive. Would you suggest that those E-4s be immediately given NCO rank and responsibility?
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SPC Woody Bullard
SPC Woody Bullard
3 y
Ce144665
I remember the Technician Ranks during WW II because my father was a
Technician Fifth Grade the two chevrons with the T underneath. The guys
in my dad's unit on Saipan called him a Tech Corporal their unofficial way of
stating his rank. Dad's duty was working radio communications calling in strikes
on Japanese positions.
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