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Two recent, interesting articles. One from The Atlantic, one from Salon (and I'll acknowledge the bias of Salon from the get go, so no one needs to spend time attacking the source; The Atlantic, though, is, as they say, "of no party or clique."
Do you agree the US win-lose record since 1945 is 1-4? Do you agree that the US loses wars precisely because it is so powerful? Why haven't Eisenhower's warnings about the military-industrial complex led to any sort of meaningful controls on the DoD budget?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/america-win-loss-iraq-afghanistan/394559/
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/16/the_dwight_eisenhower_lesson_america_forgot_partner/
Do you agree the US win-lose record since 1945 is 1-4? Do you agree that the US loses wars precisely because it is so powerful? Why haven't Eisenhower's warnings about the military-industrial complex led to any sort of meaningful controls on the DoD budget?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/america-win-loss-iraq-afghanistan/394559/
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/16/the_dwight_eisenhower_lesson_america_forgot_partner/
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 189
"Lose" is a relative term. We've surrendered or succumbed to nobody. The last time we may have been "beaten back" was in Vietnam [politically]. We clearly won Desert Storm, but didn't finish the job the first time.
Overall, my best answer to your actual question is: because we aren't fighting enemies anymore. We are fighting ideals, imaginary problems and our own POLITICS and special interests. You can't beat ideals. And when decisions are being made from a desk in Washington and being based on special interests and profits...everyone loses.
Overall, my best answer to your actual question is: because we aren't fighting enemies anymore. We are fighting ideals, imaginary problems and our own POLITICS and special interests. You can't beat ideals. And when decisions are being made from a desk in Washington and being based on special interests and profits...everyone loses.
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LTJG Sandra Smith
I agree, political interests,coupled with no clear military objectives upon entering arned conflicts, are the problem. I think I'd use ideology,rather than ideals, however, to describe that enemy, and it was ideologies we fought in WW II, as well. However we had a clear military objective to halt their spread, hence were able to defeat their military objectives.
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CPT John Noble
of course you can fight ideal each side always has ideals in war. Please don't tell me you can not kill ideals, Japanese Militarism was an ideal so was Germany's National Socialism so was Italian fascism. It has become very fashionable in some intelectual circles to so you can kill idea's that is BS you just have to kill the enemy's will to fight just like always it has never changed. By that I mean kill their will so the other side's survivors decides the ideas they were operating under were wrong.
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Speak for yourself.
No war was ever lost on my watch. We just lacked the will to secure that victory, to win the peace. We didn't lose. We left.
No war was ever lost on my watch. We just lacked the will to secure that victory, to win the peace. We didn't lose. We left.
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1SG (Join to see)
Saddam Hussein complied? Sir, you must be joking.
Much of what you and I are asserting is a matter of public record, including the recent revelation that the Bush Administration ordered the suppression of publication of WMDs that were found. News flash, sir. There were Chemical weapons in Iraq. I saw some of them myself.
I respect that you have an opinion that is shared by many. But the material item here is did we win? Depends on your definition of winning. We got in trouble when some individuals with their own agendas got involved in putting us to work on tangential missions. But both the TB and the Iraqi Army were demolished during those wars, and we were very successful (eventually) defeating those insurgenies in areas we chose to contest* (*words chosen carefully; read my question to GEN McCrystal if you want to know what I think about that one).
But if we want to define victory in the terms that were used to authorize both operations (in Congress, where they are supposed to be, not the ineffectual and feckless UN), we achieved our aims.
Mission Accomplishment = win
Much of what you and I are asserting is a matter of public record, including the recent revelation that the Bush Administration ordered the suppression of publication of WMDs that were found. News flash, sir. There were Chemical weapons in Iraq. I saw some of them myself.
I respect that you have an opinion that is shared by many. But the material item here is did we win? Depends on your definition of winning. We got in trouble when some individuals with their own agendas got involved in putting us to work on tangential missions. But both the TB and the Iraqi Army were demolished during those wars, and we were very successful (eventually) defeating those insurgenies in areas we chose to contest* (*words chosen carefully; read my question to GEN McCrystal if you want to know what I think about that one).
But if we want to define victory in the terms that were used to authorize both operations (in Congress, where they are supposed to be, not the ineffectual and feckless UN), we achieved our aims.
Mission Accomplishment = win
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SFC (Join to see)
We haven't lost, we have allowed political leaders to make our wars a campaign theme rather than focus on the fight at hand. We don't necessarily loose wars, we FAIL to completely secure a peace. Also, we fight a PC war these days: trying to fight and rebuild at the same time. We must first win the fight, forget rebuilding anything until that objective is completed. The last war we fought and truly won was WWII. We did this by bringing BOTH enemies to their knees, destroying their will to fight any longer. THEN AND ONLY THEN did we focus on the rebuilding. Also, our wars are no longer a national struggle. In WWI & WWII for example the entire country was involved-rationing, refocusing our supply lines and many other aspects were dedicated to that cause. These days the wars we fight are nothing more than a news story that effects only the 1/2 of 1% that have fought the war. People listen to pundants that cover the war more then the leaders that execute and those that do the fighting.
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Capt Seid Waddell
CPT David Santana, the reasons for going into Iraq were more than the WMD, as the left has continually charged.
Saddam was violating the terms of the truce that ended the Desert Storm combat; that alone was justification for the invasion.
"Ultimately, the chief reason why the U.S. invaded Iraq was not, as critics later claimed, to find and dismantle Saddam's stockpiles of WMD.
The ‘Authorization for the Use of Force in Iraq’ that President Bush obtained in October 2002 was a resolution passed by both the House of Representatives and the Senate, with Democratic as well as Republican majorities.
It contained a total of 23 clauses that spelled out the rationale for the war. Of those 23 clauses, only 2 mentioned WMD. What the Authorization did stress -- in 12 separate clauses -- were 16 UN Security Council Resolutions that Saddam had ignored or defied since 1991. These Resolutions were more than mere expressions of UN opinion.
The first two -- Resolutions 687 and 689 -- constituted the terms of the truce negotiated in the first Gulf War, a truce whose violation was a legal justification for renewed combat.
The other 14 Resolutions were failed attempts to enforce those first two.
In sum, the major reason why the U.S. was preparing for war, was to enforce the UN Resolutions and international law."
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=23
Saddam was violating the terms of the truce that ended the Desert Storm combat; that alone was justification for the invasion.
"Ultimately, the chief reason why the U.S. invaded Iraq was not, as critics later claimed, to find and dismantle Saddam's stockpiles of WMD.
The ‘Authorization for the Use of Force in Iraq’ that President Bush obtained in October 2002 was a resolution passed by both the House of Representatives and the Senate, with Democratic as well as Republican majorities.
It contained a total of 23 clauses that spelled out the rationale for the war. Of those 23 clauses, only 2 mentioned WMD. What the Authorization did stress -- in 12 separate clauses -- were 16 UN Security Council Resolutions that Saddam had ignored or defied since 1991. These Resolutions were more than mere expressions of UN opinion.
The first two -- Resolutions 687 and 689 -- constituted the terms of the truce negotiated in the first Gulf War, a truce whose violation was a legal justification for renewed combat.
The other 14 Resolutions were failed attempts to enforce those first two.
In sum, the major reason why the U.S. was preparing for war, was to enforce the UN Resolutions and international law."
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=23
Justifications for the War - Discover the Networks
Welcome to Discover the Networks. This website describes the networks and agendas of the political Left. The database is divided into 9 major sections
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Personally, I don't believe that we lose because we are too big. I believe that we lose because our politicians and the general public aren't as invested in our winning. So WW1 and WW2, the country was focused on the war effort. Those that were not fighting the war were supporting the war effort in some form or fashion. That is just not the case anymore. If someone isn't personally involved, they really don't care.
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SPC Angel Guma
Sure they show patriotism. That's why they thank you for your service, and then kick you in the face when you least expect it. Or don't give a damn about how dysfunctional the VA is.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Scary when you think that something akin to WWI and WWII is probably quite unlikely, unless the international world order we constructed post-WWII absolutely fails. Think about what this means for future US involvement in conflict---are the chances of a US "victory" zero?
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PO3 David Fries
MAJ (Join to see) The short, and very scary, answer is yes. Unless we have a major shift in our politicians and general public, then any conflict we find ourselves involved in is going to have the same result.
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SA (Join to see)
I agree, it's complete lack of involvement, and really even knowledge of current affaira. I have numerous aquiantances who don't know that we are currently in war. They don't think of the War on Terror as an actual conflict.
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A few thoughts / reasons why the US is 0-5 (not 1-4) since the end of WWII:
- Deviation from Constitutional standards. The US has not declared war since 8 DEC 1941 for a variety of reasons. The second order impact if this deviation is that our political leaders have failed to convince and muster the full support of the American people since that time.
- Tacticians vs Strategists. The US military produces tacticians who win battles but very few strategists who win wars.
- War on the Cheap. See first bullet. Another 2nd order effect of deviate from the Constitutional standard is that American politicians try to conduct war on the cheap. As any car or home buyer knows, you get what you pay for.
- Short term vs long term. Different ways to state this but our political system emphasizes the short term over the long term. Generational and multi year wars are difficult for democracies to sustain.
- Definition of "win". What is the definition of "win". I define it as achieving the political goals of the war and setting conditions for an enduring peace. That is why I do not define DS/DS as a win. The US achieved the political goal of getting Saddam out of Kuwait but after that we contained him for 12 years (at great expense) and then invaded again in 2003.
- I disagree that the US loses wares because it is so powerful. The US has lost wars since 1945 for the reasons noted above which have nothing to do with power.
- Deviation from Constitutional standards. The US has not declared war since 8 DEC 1941 for a variety of reasons. The second order impact if this deviation is that our political leaders have failed to convince and muster the full support of the American people since that time.
- Tacticians vs Strategists. The US military produces tacticians who win battles but very few strategists who win wars.
- War on the Cheap. See first bullet. Another 2nd order effect of deviate from the Constitutional standard is that American politicians try to conduct war on the cheap. As any car or home buyer knows, you get what you pay for.
- Short term vs long term. Different ways to state this but our political system emphasizes the short term over the long term. Generational and multi year wars are difficult for democracies to sustain.
- Definition of "win". What is the definition of "win". I define it as achieving the political goals of the war and setting conditions for an enduring peace. That is why I do not define DS/DS as a win. The US achieved the political goal of getting Saddam out of Kuwait but after that we contained him for 12 years (at great expense) and then invaded again in 2003.
- I disagree that the US loses wares because it is so powerful. The US has lost wars since 1945 for the reasons noted above which have nothing to do with power.
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COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM
SGT DeFilippis, if by WW3 in the 1980s you are referring to the Cold War then a few comments:
- The US won the Cold War (1947-1991) essentially economically rather than militarily.
- The US won the Cold War because, Democrat or Republican, we agreed on two basic issues. 1. Communism was bad and 2. At the end of the day, it will be us or them who are victorious.
- The US won the Cold War because we were willing to dedicate the time, money, and resources across the four elements of national power (diplomacy, military, economy, information) to win.
- Each of the above is not true when applied to the kinetic wars since the end of WWII (Korea, Vietnam, DS/DS, Iraq, Afghanistan).
- The above is also not true (especially the two key issues) when applied to GWOT/OCO/Radical Islam.
- The US won the Cold War (1947-1991) essentially economically rather than militarily.
- The US won the Cold War because, Democrat or Republican, we agreed on two basic issues. 1. Communism was bad and 2. At the end of the day, it will be us or them who are victorious.
- The US won the Cold War because we were willing to dedicate the time, money, and resources across the four elements of national power (diplomacy, military, economy, information) to win.
- Each of the above is not true when applied to the kinetic wars since the end of WWII (Korea, Vietnam, DS/DS, Iraq, Afghanistan).
- The above is also not true (especially the two key issues) when applied to GWOT/OCO/Radical Islam.
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MAJ Keira Brennan
Sir - DITTO with one exception. I call DShielf/Storm a win. Northern Watch contained the Hussein regime for all practical purposes up until 2003. There was an excellent essay in Foreign Affairs back in the early 2000's discussing the National/Geo-Political rational for the Coalition not toppling Baghdad which predicted the Iraqi Civil War, Sunni-Shia strife and Iranian encroachment. But I am giving you a 99% on your response. Ill try to find that article.
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CH (LTC) Jim Howard
Desert Shield/Storm was not a loss because the objective was never to overthrow Saddam. That being said, it became increasingly clear that limited objectives yield limited results. In Europe and Japan we occupied and enforced our will upon a defeated enemy. This requires a great deal more forces than were ever dedicated to Iraq or Afghanistan. Kuwait was an easy victory because we were liberating an occupied nation. Winning against any enemy requires that you both destroy their material capacity to wage war and their will to fight. Unless you do that, you have never really won.
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PO2 Alden Dean
Only one thing keeps the USA from winning anything now. Collateral damage. Politicians hate collateral damage. If you are going to win, throw everything everywhere. Let God sort it out
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SPC Daniel Cahill
Ditto .. ditto .. Ditto
Police Actions that are negotiated completely to "win" the war .... do not replace a "defeated" enemy with no capacity to wage further war on us...
Like WW2, our enemies had no capacity to wage further war and we did not give them freedom until they were "re-educated" and earned their freedom to run their own countries again. ...
I.e. (one small exampe) - It would have been cheaper to put Saddam's remaining troops in barracks and "re-educated" them for years if necessary than to fight them in an insurgency for years . ... and this is one small example......
I could discuss this for years...
Vietnam had similar problems and and don't get me started on Korea. ...
Spineless politicians ad nauseam! !!!
Police Actions that are negotiated completely to "win" the war .... do not replace a "defeated" enemy with no capacity to wage further war on us...
Like WW2, our enemies had no capacity to wage further war and we did not give them freedom until they were "re-educated" and earned their freedom to run their own countries again. ...
I.e. (one small exampe) - It would have been cheaper to put Saddam's remaining troops in barracks and "re-educated" them for years if necessary than to fight them in an insurgency for years . ... and this is one small example......
I could discuss this for years...
Vietnam had similar problems and and don't get me started on Korea. ...
Spineless politicians ad nauseam! !!!
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CPO Joseph Grant
LTC (Join to see) the American public has a short memory. Even after 9/11 people quickly forgot or lost interest in the wars. The media salivated at every opportunity to point out atrocities that happen in war and to compare our actions to the savages we fought. No, this generation probably wouldn't support total war because they've been taught BS moral relativism. Is total war necessary? Only if you want to not only win, but also ensure your children don't have to finish what you should have.
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SSG Kevin McCulley
I know.. in the modern age where up is down, speaking out against seditious elements in my society is out of line.. Calling something what it is... totally unacceptable. It is so funny to me that no one says anything to them when they hurl insults.. must exemplify who you voted for twice.. Forgive me if I have no patience for those who would see the destruction of the American Way of Life.
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SSG Kevin McCulley
Capt Matt A. Time has shown them to be murderous traitors.. not a stereotype but actual reality.
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MAJ (Join to see) I would phrase it we haven't won any "wars" since WWII but that does not mean we lost either. Political ends where no one truly "wins" has been the order of the day since Korea.
We, as a country, have not had the same "all in" mentality of WWI and WWII. Could we have "won" every war? Yes. But did we, as a nation, have the will to do so? I would argue not.
Awesome topic!
We, as a country, have not had the same "all in" mentality of WWI and WWII. Could we have "won" every war? Yes. But did we, as a nation, have the will to do so? I would argue not.
Awesome topic!
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SGT Rick Ash
Awesome topic indeed! I followed the link to "The Atlantic" and then much deeper into related topics. This one scares the hell out of me and taught me many things about ISIS that I did NOT know. Do yourself a favor and read the whole story but be ready!
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
God save us....
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
God save us....
The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.
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I think the article is aptly titled "Why has America Stopped winning wars?" but I have to agree with most everyone else, we haven't lost either. There are myriad reasons why we aren't winning and I won't take the cop out and blame it on the politicians, I'll look introspectively.
First, the nature of the wars we fight has changed but we haven't truly adapted to that. The shadow of WWII still looms large in the minds of military strategists and those within the military-industrial complex. We want to mobilize the nation to win the big war, but it hasn't been that way, and likely won't be again anytime soon. Russia may be invading Ukraine but unless they go after Germany (doubtful) then we aren't, and can't really, do anything militarily to stop them. China may be a big threat in a land war but unless they go through North Korea they don't have the lift capabilities to project power yet. So instead of focusing on stability operations, peace-keeping operations, and general global security from threats (i.e. terrorism) we have been yearning to fight some non-existent superpower.
Which brings me to my second point. Because we haven't adapted to the nature of warfare our units and training reflect a very confused outlook and foreign policy. The Army has "Modular" Brigade Combat Teams but they are way off the mark. Modular means to be able to assemble different components or rapidly change components for a missions set, the Army has taken it as a one-size fits all. Hence the reason why every single BCT has the same structure and same mission instead of using each type of force as it should. Airborne units are meant to be shock troops, and even in prolonged conflicts can be used as such. Armored units are meant to punch holes in enemy defenses and exploit breakouts, not patrol downtown areas. The Strykers have proved very versatile but I still think we could do more. So, as far as units are concerned they should be structured and oriented to what they are suited for and have the ability to be modular, that is, change their MTOE as needed to complete the mission.
That brings up training. Because each unit is supposedly the same, and because we aren't sure which war we want to fight, we fail to properly train for the missions at hand. The more I have read and studied our fights I often wonder if anyone has picked up an infantry field manual in the past 15 years. We can't even do the basics of take and hold territory anymore. I know the USMC does a good job of getting Marines to training, for the most part, but in the Army at least "schools" are filled with people trying to get promoted, not mission essential personnel. Also, this lack of training, all the way up, causes us to become overly reliant on overwhelming force as a means for victory. It is mentioned countless times throughout this post that the reason we lose, or don't win, is because we don't conduct total war. With the exception of Vietnam, and possibly Korea, most of our conflicts haven't been of that nature. But because that is all we can think of we send way more troops than are needed and keep them around for too long to be targets. Anyway, that portion of the conversation could be a book in it's own right.
Finally, we didn't heed Eisenhower's warning about the military-industrial complex as you said. We are overly focused on the number of tanks, ships, weapons, etc. instead of their capabilities. So what if we have fewer ships than before WWII, one modern DESRON could probably annihilate an entire fleet of WWII ships. In the same vein, we are worried about troop strength dropping below pre-WWII numbers, but each soldier today is better armed, trained, and protected than his predecessors. One soldier with a javelin and a well-supplied fighting position could hold off an armored thrust single-handedly, not likely in WWII. The reason they speak of these things is because the MIC wants to keep it's share of the pie as large as possible. If troop numbers drop we need less weapons and vehicles to remain effective. The military is hardly allowing itself a necessary evil, creative destruction, to take place. Creative destruction is the advances in technology and thinking that create positive change and the military is very adverse to change.
I think that about sums it up, this is a topic I often think about. Hope at least one person takes the time to read this whole thing.
First, the nature of the wars we fight has changed but we haven't truly adapted to that. The shadow of WWII still looms large in the minds of military strategists and those within the military-industrial complex. We want to mobilize the nation to win the big war, but it hasn't been that way, and likely won't be again anytime soon. Russia may be invading Ukraine but unless they go after Germany (doubtful) then we aren't, and can't really, do anything militarily to stop them. China may be a big threat in a land war but unless they go through North Korea they don't have the lift capabilities to project power yet. So instead of focusing on stability operations, peace-keeping operations, and general global security from threats (i.e. terrorism) we have been yearning to fight some non-existent superpower.
Which brings me to my second point. Because we haven't adapted to the nature of warfare our units and training reflect a very confused outlook and foreign policy. The Army has "Modular" Brigade Combat Teams but they are way off the mark. Modular means to be able to assemble different components or rapidly change components for a missions set, the Army has taken it as a one-size fits all. Hence the reason why every single BCT has the same structure and same mission instead of using each type of force as it should. Airborne units are meant to be shock troops, and even in prolonged conflicts can be used as such. Armored units are meant to punch holes in enemy defenses and exploit breakouts, not patrol downtown areas. The Strykers have proved very versatile but I still think we could do more. So, as far as units are concerned they should be structured and oriented to what they are suited for and have the ability to be modular, that is, change their MTOE as needed to complete the mission.
That brings up training. Because each unit is supposedly the same, and because we aren't sure which war we want to fight, we fail to properly train for the missions at hand. The more I have read and studied our fights I often wonder if anyone has picked up an infantry field manual in the past 15 years. We can't even do the basics of take and hold territory anymore. I know the USMC does a good job of getting Marines to training, for the most part, but in the Army at least "schools" are filled with people trying to get promoted, not mission essential personnel. Also, this lack of training, all the way up, causes us to become overly reliant on overwhelming force as a means for victory. It is mentioned countless times throughout this post that the reason we lose, or don't win, is because we don't conduct total war. With the exception of Vietnam, and possibly Korea, most of our conflicts haven't been of that nature. But because that is all we can think of we send way more troops than are needed and keep them around for too long to be targets. Anyway, that portion of the conversation could be a book in it's own right.
Finally, we didn't heed Eisenhower's warning about the military-industrial complex as you said. We are overly focused on the number of tanks, ships, weapons, etc. instead of their capabilities. So what if we have fewer ships than before WWII, one modern DESRON could probably annihilate an entire fleet of WWII ships. In the same vein, we are worried about troop strength dropping below pre-WWII numbers, but each soldier today is better armed, trained, and protected than his predecessors. One soldier with a javelin and a well-supplied fighting position could hold off an armored thrust single-handedly, not likely in WWII. The reason they speak of these things is because the MIC wants to keep it's share of the pie as large as possible. If troop numbers drop we need less weapons and vehicles to remain effective. The military is hardly allowing itself a necessary evil, creative destruction, to take place. Creative destruction is the advances in technology and thinking that create positive change and the military is very adverse to change.
I think that about sums it up, this is a topic I often think about. Hope at least one person takes the time to read this whole thing.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Great post. A couple points:
1) Spot on--we prepare to fight the big war, and thus aren't prepared to fight the "little" wars we've been in since Vietnam.
2) Even though we've essentially been fighting "little" wars for decades, as you say, Army units are still designed to fight the big war, and aren't adaptable.
3) I used the infantry field manuals a great deal in my time in the Infantry.
4) Your perspective of total war seems off-base. We haven't waged total war since the Civil War (Sherman was pretty good at it) or for a brief period in WWII (atomic bombs, firebombing).
1) Spot on--we prepare to fight the big war, and thus aren't prepared to fight the "little" wars we've been in since Vietnam.
2) Even though we've essentially been fighting "little" wars for decades, as you say, Army units are still designed to fight the big war, and aren't adaptable.
3) I used the infantry field manuals a great deal in my time in the Infantry.
4) Your perspective of total war seems off-base. We haven't waged total war since the Civil War (Sherman was pretty good at it) or for a brief period in WWII (atomic bombs, firebombing).
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SGT James Elphick
MAJ (Join to see) Thank you for the comments. I think you are correct about my usage of total war. What I was implying was a war fought to the unconditional surrender of our enemy vs. the ambiguous endings to most small wars. Not sure what to call that, all-out war? Also glad to hear you used the infantry field manuals, why aren't those issued to everyone in the infantry?
CPT Jared Speaks Thank you for the anecdotal evidence to my assertions.
CPT Jared Speaks Thank you for the anecdotal evidence to my assertions.
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We didn't go to conquer these countries. We went to capture or kill Osama bin Laden.(mission complete)!! Note sure what the mission was in Iraqi. That's something we'd have to ask former president bush. Maybe we wasn't suppose to be over there. But we did take Saddam Hussein out of power. He was the only weapon weapon of mass destruction that we found in the country.(LOL) mission complete. Now it comes a time when the people have to stand up for theirselves. Like battered spouse you can't help them until they want your help. When we was there they couldn't wait for us to leave. We can't bailout everyone. We been to take care of home now
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MAJ (Join to see)
You raise a good point: one should look at what the strategic endstates were for each war we've engaged in. For Iraq and Afghanistan, because the strategic endstate has shifted dozens and dozens of times, its hard to quantify winning or losing.
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SSG Lloyd Becker BSBA-HCM, MBA
When Bush 41 was the POTUS, we actually deposed Saddam Hussein, but they let him back in power. Stupid way of doing business. When you capture the "Flag", you are supposed to keep it. We did not. All they did was slap his hand and give him back the cookie jar.
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I don't see Iraq or Afghanistan as lost. We left because there was government that we installed, with an army that we trained on the ground. Iraq lost some ground but the war isn't over yet (it would be over if we had left troops there and we wouldn't have this problem). Afghanistan is still in control with sporadic fighting but their government is still in place and functioning as well as can be expected. We need a military leader in the White House.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SPC Nathan Freeman I appreciate your optimism about Iraq and Afghanistan. I think the facts on the ground preclude much optimism, though. We'll never have a "military" leader in the White House, maybe a veteran or former Servicemember. Probably not for at least another four to eight years, as none of the major candidates with a legitimate chance at winning are veterans. What would another veteran or former Servicemember do differently than, say, President GW Bush (who had military service)? Start more wars?
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SPC Robert Coventry
MAJ (Join to see) - What is a former servicemember? are you implying that people that served in the military during peacetime are not veterans? I beg to differ I served during peacetime and I signed on the dotted line not to go get some, to serve my country, I would have gladly defended our constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic
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