Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Judah Freed
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)

For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?

Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....


e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
Edited >1 y ago
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CDR Bob Fuller
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First, every service member has taken an oath to follow LAWFUL orders. We also have an obligation not to follow unlawful orders. Examples: Lawful-“Report aboard ship prior to the expiration of liberty. Liberty expires at 0100 local time”; Unlawful- “March those POWs ahead of the platoon to clear the minefield”. A service members reply should be “Sir, I believe you’ve issued an unlawful order (to march POWs thru a minefield) and I am obligated to not follow/obey this unlawful order”.
Second, in the question asked (deploy forces to quell civil disturbances/violent protests), this can be a lawful order as long as the Posse Comitatus Act (which limits the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States) is complied with. This act dates to 1878, updated in 1958 & 1981. Nation Guard units under state control can be used within their respective state to perform as above (quell civil disturbances/violent protests).
Third, IMHO, protecting federal property from riot/arson, where the local law enforcement has been withdrawn or ordered to not protect is probably a reasonable/lawful use of federal forces (lawful order as long as Posse Comitatus Act is complied with); stopping a ballot count because the results are disagreeable (IMHO) is probably an unlawful order.
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
3 y
Thanks for remembering the UCMJ, Law of War and Posse Comitatus. The Courts have ruled on the Election. Examples of our our Constitution at work.
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Lt Col Charlie Brown
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NO!
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PFC Joshua Halter
PFC Joshua Halter
>1 y
No!
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SFC Gary Galbraith
SFC Gary Galbraith
>1 y
Not no, but absolutely not
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LCDR Robert Russnogle
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Fortunately for me this only occurred twice in my career. No I did not obey, to my officer in charge it was illegal, immoral, and probably fattening and would carry out the order. One occasion we pounded fists on his desk at each other but I finally convinced the Admiral that what he wanted to do was illegal. He relented and allowed me to show him the law and Navy Regs. Eventually he shook my hand and we went on from there. An old axiom though is "Let your conscience be your guide but disobey at your peril" You had better be right
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
MSgt Gilbert Jones
3 y
Great statement!
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Capt Bill Straw
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This question looks like a set up to bash Trump, but I am genuinely concerned about whether or not the US military of today has enough knowledge of the constitution and the doctrine of separation of powers to make a sensible and legal decision in such an instance. I know I am in “old guy“, but for me the answer is “No, I would not follow an illegal or unconstitutional order!” I would hope that at least some of our senior leader ship (and I don’t have much confidence, based on what I’ve seen of late, that very many are of like mind) would feel the same way.
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1px xxx
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3 y
Sadly there was a winnowing of senior ranks over the past 12-16 years and I also have very little confidence that they would honor the Constitution over their "orders"... illegal or not.
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LTJG Sandra Smith
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1st, we HAD an illegitimate sitting"POTUS", a man not o ly not natural born, as per the Constitution, but not even an US citizen, & all efforts to oppose him & his unlawful orders & acts were treated as CRIMES, indtead of being properly investigated, & evidence heard, which tells me those asking this question, now, do not WANT the truth here; the way it's worded says they want the narrative. Well, I can't & won't give it to them. We now have a 2nd illegitimate régime in place: a senile old man incapable of rationally dicarging the duties, & a NON- citizen (per the correct reading of the 14th A on citizenship) masquerading as VPOTUS. Obeying them is to betray the very Constitution to which we now sed to take our oaths, not to mention disobeying the higher laws of Yhwh God! These are people following & pushing the anti-Constitutional, anti- God, Satanic agenda, whom I cannot, in good conscience, obey under any circumstances. As an officer, the UCMJ required me to not follow such orders, had I been given such. As a citizen & Christian I must obey God's law when there is a conflict, & where the Bible isn't entirely clear on a specific issue, for example the jabs called "vaccines" erroneously, I revert to my professional training & experience & the Holy Spirit's guidance. The bottom line is no, Icould & would not obey unlawful orders, however, I would discern which "side" was telling the truth!
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SPC Daniel Kennedy
SPC Daniel Kennedy
>1 y
Sandra we follow a higher leader correct?
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LTJG Sandra Smith
LTJG Sandra Smith
>1 y
SPC Daniel Kennedy Absolutely correct.
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
MSgt Gilbert Jones
>1 y
PO1 Timothy Strunk - Sorry, you must be getting all your information from trump, Fox News, or other right wing groups. Obama was never charged with doing anything wrong and it was proven that he was born in HI.
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
MSgt Gilbert Jones
>1 y
LTJG Sandra Smith - How did you get into the service LTJG, and become an officer at that. I feel sorry for anyone who may have served under you. You don't know your head from your ass.
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1SG Charles Hunter
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I thought this issue was fully answered at Nuernberg in 1945-46.
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CPO Kurt Baschab
CPO Kurt Baschab
>1 y
Sadly many Young Men and women do not even know about Nuernberg,
I was Shocked by how many had never even read the United States Constitution, or the Bill Of Rights.
when I asked them what they knew about these documents, they were told by there teachers it was not important, to know, or understand .

that the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights were outdated Racist documents that were written by rich old White men.
that the United States Constitution should be replaced and gotten rid of , Luckily that not what they Believed.
what I started doing was purchasing pocket Constitution, and giving them out to anyone who wanted them to read, I use to challenge my young sailors, by telling them you took a Otha to protect and defend the united states Constitution, don't you think you should at least read it.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
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Sit back and watch.
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SSgt Max Gonzales
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In the present case,we know this person has flawed view of what has happened. I would not follow him at any cost. Those that choose to do so are entitled to their opinions. Being a sore loser, just shows how much he wanted to follow in Hitlers steps. We have never had a dictator and most agree, never will. Our constitution guarantees that freedom is for all not just the rich.
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1px xxx
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3 y
Take a good hard look today.... POTUS has promised to go door2door to harangue people to accept an UNapproved vaccine, has threatened to go door2door to CONFISCATE privately owned arms, violating at a minimum the 2nd and 4th Articles of the Bill Of Rights. I would call THAT Dictatorship...
MSgt Gilbert Jones
MSgt Gilbert Jones
3 y
SPC Svanoe, before coming on here and spouting your lies, get your facts straight. People will be going door to door to give shots to those who are unable to go to places where shots are available or unable because of health reasons. People are dying, all over this country because of stupid people spraying lies like you.
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CPO Kurt Baschab
CPO Kurt Baschab
>1 y
God Help US
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Capt Edward Egan
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"... I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same ..." 1965, no expiration date.
For those currently serving it applies most specifically.
To obey an unconstitutional order would violate my oath; to obey an illegal order would violate my moral code.
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SFC Charles Williamson
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The only reason I can see someone asking this question in the current times is to stir the pot and cause a mess. As a “civilian supporter” it really isn’t your position to ask any military personnel Retired or Active duty whether or not they would obey a “legal or unconstitutional order” unless you are trying to do so. In my honest opinion. Who are you really working for and what’s your motivation behind this question?
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
MSgt Gilbert Jones
3 y
Very good SFC Williamson!
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