Rp logo flat shadow
Command Post What is this?
Posted on Feb 16, 2016
SSG Lon Watson
152K
839
330
170
170
0
Avatar feed
Responses: 147
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
SSG Lon Watson
0
0
0
You folks that keep hating on my article, thanks it’s almost to 100k views!
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Mike Adams
0
0
0
I guess this guy joined after the middle 70’s. Basic training was rough. I seen a dozen guys not make it through. However on 1980 I was yelling at one of the guys in my squad. He started crying, he said the drill sergeants didn’t even yell at them. He also mentions several hard core units. I thought my Calvary Regiment, the 11th ACR was a pretty hardcore outfit.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Col James Cooke
0
0
0
Well thought out critique, SSG Watson! Any one who gets upset over a critique needs to think real hard WHY he/she is getting upset or even angry. Then they are in a far better position to respond logically.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Wally Lawver
0
0
0
Correct. I am retired Army, but will always be a Marine.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Steve Daugherty
0
0
0
Good points and when I entered basic training in the Army in 1971 the DI’s were on our ass from the gitgo, but they were all combat veterans and they sincerely were trying to train us to survive the war in SE asia. They had all internalized that mission because of comrades they had already lost. And if you couldn’t adjust they had special training platoons that were almost Draculan in their training and they came out good soldiers or were deemed pretty worthless, back then you weren’t allowed to just quit because it hurt your feelings , But irregardless, where the rubber meets the road is Combat performance, is there a profound difference when the shooting starts? Has anyone ever evaluated this, as it would be more telling if successful training strategies than anecdotal impressions, though not to negate the importance of trained observation
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MSG Frank Kapaun
0
0
0
Your point? If you want to be a Marine, join the USMC.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Bradley Fighting Vehicle System Maintainer
0
0
0
I will have to say that the army has changed a lot. I spent 23 years in the army. But, when I joined, it wasn't like it is now. We were petrified of our drill instructors, all the way through AIT. We learned to respect our leaders and NCO's. I just recently retired and I could tell the difference in the type of soldiers the army is recruiting now, compared to 20 years ago. Now it is quantity not quality.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Retired
0
0
0
I see that you've given this a great deal of thought. I believe that experience as an Army DS may have helped you reach different conclusions.
How many Army receptions did you observe, or participate in, to reach the conclusions about Army training?
I disagree with many of your assertions, and believe they lack an awareness of what actually happens during Army basic training.
I served as a DS, and am certain the experiences of my Soldiers wasn't what you described. I was the Detachment Sergeant for HHD, 82nd CM BN in 2001, when TRADOC implemented a standardized zero day. I personally observed and evaluated the initial implementation, and don't believe it was comforting, or otherwise as you described. Inprocessing and reception at the Reception Station, where the Soldiers get their initial issue and wait to ship to their unit may not match the reception at the Marine Corps, but that doesn't support the conclusions presented.
I don't disagree that the Marine Corps is more indoctrination, but disagree with the majority of your conclusions, based on my first hand experience.
I do agree that the Marine Corps has done a better job at teaching its history to recruits.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
I went to drill sergeant school, shadowed drill sergeants, and boom! Had an accident in training (not my fault), was nearly killed! Woke up in a hospital and didn’t get to graduate.
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG Retired
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Cpl Rc Layne
0
0
0
There is no such thing as rehabilitation. It is a myth in the field of Corrections. I believe what you are looking for is " behavior modification", which is real, and is the primary result of USMC Boot Camp. The recruits have gone from me to we in their thought processes.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Squad Leader
0
0
0
Well duh. Soldiers are a different group. Hell from guard to reserves to active are a different group. Not bad...just different.

I was active for 6 years as paratrooper in the 82ND for quite some time. Now I'm a guardsman, they are both soldiers but completely different.

It's more of a willing to fight spirit in the Army to a "we're the best at war" mentality. Honestly running a support element I love guardsmen, in a battle please give me marines, or better rangers
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
LCpl Tim Nance
0
0
0
Well said
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Erich Guenther
0
0
0
"one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984"............Anyone know if this is really true? I think I would have heard about it being in service at the time and for almost 3 years afterwards from the other Korea Vets.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
9 y
Are you really questioning me on this when you have google and other tools available. Mark DeVille got a silver star in 2014 retroactively for this combat engagement. Before you imply someone is a liar you should do your homework.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SPC Erich Guenther
SPC Erich Guenther
9 y
And so where in the article is his name given? I did Google BTW and it was an honest question. I merely asked if it was true. 2014 is only two years ago, BTW. You might want to put an Edit in the article on his name and the retroactive award. I tried.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Infantryman
0
0
0
I am a Marine forever. A soldier may say..I was in the Army
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Recruiter
0
0
0
My main problem with this question/statement is that you're talking about reception. A 3-5 day bit about as remembered as a visit to MEPS, and less influential. As an Army POG, I went to Ft. Knox before they cut the BCT from there, and my reception was miserable, sure, and there was yelling and shock, but nothing like getting to my BCT unit. Shit was hell, and I remember at graduation, there was nothing you could say to me that could convince me that I hadn't just gone through the gauntlet and earned the right to be called Soldier. It was AIT where my discipline faltered, and further still at my unit, due to some poor "ride it out, check the block, try to retire" leadership. But when I became a leader, I vowed not to let that happen to my Soldiers. Like one of the other Soldiers here mentioned, Soldiers, good or bad, are made at the unit. BCT is a template creation. But what I don't take kindly to is anyone claiming that anyone else outside of my Branch is better than us. You're out of your mind. Between our Airborne POGS, to our SOF POGS in CA, PSYOP, 160th, etc, not one organization on planet earth can claim to be better than my Army, POG or not. And you know where the difference lies? Leadership. Wanna talk about a "softer" Army? Watch me turn your worst Soldier around without so much as a curse word or a bead of sweat. I hate being compared to any Branch, but I damn well know we're not coming up short.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Richard Stengline
0
0
0
The school is no more but 82nd/18th Airborne Recondo was a kick in the pants that changed you.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SPC Richard Stengline
SPC Richard Stengline
9 y
I also encouraged my sons that if they wanted to join a service pick the Marines.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
0
0
0
From what I've read, it sounds like you may have simply picked the wrong branch. It's ok to admire from afar but here you come off as a wannabe. That's ok and all but you've never experienced life as a Marine, you've only researched it.

The grass is only greener when you water it.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Jeff Couch
0
0
0
Very well wrote did you hit on how some years back the army handed out stress card to use once a week what the f*** is that we would have had that shoved in places it shouldn't
(0)
Comment
(0)
1px xxx
Suspended Profile
>1 y
Never happened.
Avatar small
TSgt Robert Belcher
0
0
0
My older brother was a Marine, I remember attending his graduation from Boot Camp at Camp Pendleton, from that moment on he would have my everlasting respect and admiration because he had in fact earned the title MARINE, in my eyes they are the Ultimate Warriors, the only reason I didn't follow in his footsteps was because of my love of flying, I have often wondered if I could have measured up and become a Marine myself, the path not taken.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
PO2 Samuel Young
0
0
0
If the Army were as good as the Marines we wouldn't need the Marines.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC(P) Platoon Sergeant
0
0
0
Go back to the want ta be warriors marines.We do not want you in our uniform.Go back to your 6 to 7 month tours,while mine are 13 to 16 months long in the Sh-t!U.S.ARMY wins just about all of the rifle and pistol competitions.The U.S.ARMY is the first in last out.The U.S.ARMY has more amphibious landing than the marines,to include WW2.We win at boxing,unarmed self defense.Hell we even beat the marines at there own marathon.It piss-s me off when you puss--s come over to my ARMY and start running your worthless mouth.Hell I heard a marine scream like a Bit-h when he came under fire.We kick everyone's ass.Oh,and we win the most sniper competitions.I could go on and on.But enough said on this worthless subject.And I will not reply back to this thread.P.S. I am not some in the rear with the gear F--k either.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
I'm not going to stop this now. I'm not going to respond for two reasons: 1. I don't mouth off to a senior noncommissioned officer even if I am retired.
2. I have more honor than that.
Good day sergeant!
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Cpl D L Parker
0
0
0
thank you. Ive been searching for years the topic you just discussed. However doesn't the Army have something similar to the crucible?
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT William Parke
0
0
0
So in another avenue, do you believe the Boot Camp process for Corrections is truly effective in reducing recidivism even among minor offense inmates?
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
I absolutely do. We have a 69% rate which is better than any prison program. But there is an unmeasurable effect too. Sometimes you fix one guy and that guy goes out and does great things. I know that convicts are way tougher than recruits to train. They very from being illiterate guys with IQs of 85 to people with a master's degree.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
COL Ted Mc
0
0
0
Edited >1 y ago
SSG Lon Watson - Staff; One of the difficulties involved in transferring "Marine Training/Thinking" to the Army is that "the Army" is simply too diffuse to have an identity. On the other hand, "The Corps" is seen by Marines as a single entity.

If you ask any Marine, "the Army" will NEVER be an "elite concept" because it will always be populated by non-Marines (who, by [Marine] definition, 'simply wouldn't be able to hack it as Marines'). With a 241 year head start, "The Marines" are going to be almost impossible to catch up with. With the human material that the Army attracts, catching up is going to be even harder. (This, however, does not mean that SECTIONS of the Army can't be as good as - or [HERESY ALERT] even better than Marines [/HERESY ALERT] - but they have to be LED to believe that they can be.)

You might also note that it doesn't seem a bit unusual to capitalize the "T" of the "the" when you refer to "The Corps" or "The Marines", but it does if you try to refer to "The Army".

PS - I do agree that the Army could try a bit harder than it seems to be doing these days.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG William Rhodes
0
0
0
The only thing I can say since I went thru basic, the Army standards have gone to shit. Nowadays not only recruits but also basic training units standards and traditions are weak!
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
LCpl Cody Collins
0
0
0
You are spot on !
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Aaron Kletzing
0
0
0
This has to be an early candidate for Command Post entry of the year :)
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
PFC Ammunition Specialist
0
0
0
i went to my AIT where there were Marines for school too. whenever we saw them, they were not as highly trained as what you were comparing the Army to.

also when I arrived to basic training, it wasn't all love and hugs, it was shock and awe. so if you think it's getting soft then maybe you need to go back through training again.

Marines are not all that special, or elite.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Joshua Dawson
0
0
0
After what I experienced on a 15 month deployment, in which my unit was tasked out under the Marine Task Force, I do not have much of an opinion of Marines or even much respect for them either. They sent us out to all the areas they kept getting messed up in and they would hardly even bring us supplies, then they would only come out on 2 week rotations to stay where we were and in that time they would completely trash the place and try to steal whatever they could so not only were they trying to take what little we even had out there but they were trashing the whole place and just leaving it like that for my unit to take care of as well.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Joshua Dawson
0
0
0
Edited >1 y ago
I'm wondering where you had basic training if you have opinions like that. I've talked with several prior service Marines and most of them didn't even come close to the treatment we received at Benning from day one all the way until we left on the bus. They initially called it "red phase" and they constantly told us that it was only for the beginning of the training cycle but our entire training cycle was "red phase" hell they even added more onto it the closer it got to the end.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Scott Burk
0
0
0
I totally agree.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Unit Supply Specialist
0
0
0
He's saying stuff that was already known. Well written yes, but everyone knows that the Army is softer than ever. In my BCT in 2007, I felt it was way too soft. I then heard that three privates were chosen to go speak with the post CSM and tell him that they thought it was too hard. BCT and Boot are not meant to be gentlemen courses. They are to break you down and build you into a soldier or marine.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Former Rn
0
0
0
I am not nor was a marine, but kind of wish I went THERE instead of the army, this explains what I was wondering for the past 30 years. In minutiae. It all makes sense to me now, and now knowing that things have changed THAT much since I was in (Jan 92) to NOW? wow Army, you really DID go soft. I was yelled at, we had pugil stick training and kind of a karate ju jitsu type fighting...but it is good that I can understand it more now though...appreciate this post. It is a big eye opener, I hope that the higher ups, {Pentagon and above} take notice here...but I doubt it.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
GySgt Infantry Unit Leader
0
0
0
186k is a bit bigger than "a few Battalions". And it was not said that the Army does not hold their own just that maybe things can be tightened down a bit.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CSM Bn Ssa
0
0
0
The Army experiences a lot more scrutiny then other branches due to the Army being larger then almost all branches combined. So with issues like suicide, sexual harassment, and equal opportunity at an all time high the Army has had to conform to a more relaxed standards to get the perception that they are combating the problem. I totally agree BCT is a cake walk these days but when you are training thousands of Soldiers instead of hundreds of Marines there are more opportunities for scrutiny. I wish we could go back to the days of smoke sessions and intense remedial training but for now our hands are tied and we have to adapt to develop the best Soldiers we can with the resources we have.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Thomas Person
0
0
0
Nice read. If you want to get a better idea prior to "tapping out"; read T.R. Fehrenbach's "This Kind of War". One will readily see the issue with regards to a 'softer" Army. The Army's proclivity for allowing itself to be a test bed for social engineering is well documented. The military in general I suspect is being poisoned with a lack of killer instinct. I remember seeing 2 heavily armed boats being taken without a fight. Would a Ranger Regimental or 82nd Airborne PIR element or a Marine element allow itself to be rolled up without some sort resistance? Hummm?
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Thomas Howes
0
0
0
I agree with you when I came in the army back in the 70's it was like that had a drill in my face till I graduate and I feel the army needs to go back to that way again you need to brake them down and bring them back up make them a soldier
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
PFC Jim Linton
0
0
0
I took basic training in 1987 and I remember going through bayonet training. I know basic training wasn't as tuff from earlier years my dad was a drill instructor he is a veteran of the Korean conflict and Vietnam and he told me stories on how the basic training has eased up on breaking the recruits down and building them back up. I do remember the duffle bag drag after that cattle car came to a dead stop and all hell broke loose I'm sure it has eased up since the almost 30 years that I went through it and after AIT I was assigned to the 7th infantry division and their motto was voice of the bayonet
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.