Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
I joined the All Volunteer Force of my own free will but would have opposed the Draft, had I been old enough to be be drafted. When Carter (in my opinion the worst President ever unfit to shine Obumer's shoes) granted amnesty to the people who fled to Canada and elsewhere to escape, I was pissed! They should never have been allowed back in this country, Scott free. As for the ones who Dodged the Draft 'fair-n-square' so to speak, I don't know. I think not. Some people are just not cut out to be in the military and to make them, is as wrong as it is stupid.
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Muhammad Ali stuck around and faced the music. Him I respected. All the others who fled the US I do not.
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First and foremost thank you for your service. Now for the meat, who would want to be on the front lines with someone who would rather not be there? You have to depend on the person beside you to protect and save you if necessary and someone who doesn't want to be there may run from the fight when needed.
I say if someone has the means to avoid the draft and doesn't want to be there God bless them I don't want them there either.
I say if someone has the means to avoid the draft and doesn't want to be there God bless them I don't want them there either.
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SPC Michael Tierney
I don't think anyone I was in VN with "wanted" to be there. Constantly on patrol, sleeping in the rain, eating C-rations (for the first six months then LRP rations (freeze dried food) for the last months), shooting at people and being shot at, flying around in helicopters, going on ambush patrols....Who seeks that kind of experience? Maybe a few whacked out people but not your ordinary civilian. Whether US or RA, no one wants to be there. You just do the job and hope to go home.
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SSG Edward Tilton
Very few went on patrols, most were in support units. Some never left the base. If you were COMBAT ARMS it could be a pain. I volunteered, twice and did a couple years in Korea in between. Cs could be OK. I was an E-6 and had a job that was great
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I grew up during a time that we still had a draft, not just registering like what is required today. The Vietnam war was still in full swing and I knew there was a chance that I could be drafted right after high school. Well the year I had to register was also the year the draft ended, 1975.
Would I have gone if called up, chances are. As I was raised in a family with a long military history, going back to this countries Revolutionary War for Independence. But I digress. I enlisted a few months after graduation from high school and have no regrets, would I do it over again knowing what I know now, HELL YES in a heartbeat..
Only thing I might possibly change is I would have stayed in and did my 20, or possibly even longer.
The military is not for everyone, I personally have no problem with those that avoided the draft by going to college or got a medical deferment. As for those that went running yo Canada to avoid the draft, that is between them and their maker. It is not my place or anyone else's place to judge them, everyone and I do mean everyone is going to have to answer for the decisions and actions they made in the end.
Would I have gone if called up, chances are. As I was raised in a family with a long military history, going back to this countries Revolutionary War for Independence. But I digress. I enlisted a few months after graduation from high school and have no regrets, would I do it over again knowing what I know now, HELL YES in a heartbeat..
Only thing I might possibly change is I would have stayed in and did my 20, or possibly even longer.
The military is not for everyone, I personally have no problem with those that avoided the draft by going to college or got a medical deferment. As for those that went running yo Canada to avoid the draft, that is between them and their maker. It is not my place or anyone else's place to judge them, everyone and I do mean everyone is going to have to answer for the decisions and actions they made in the end.
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Personally speaking, I spent 18 months in RVN as a volunteer, I hold no grudge with those who were able to legally avoid it. I do object to those who haven't served anytime or anywhere, faulting another over having not served.
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Didnt the draft end about 45 years ago or more? It seems like you're really kind of grasping for things to be pissed off about if that's what you're pissed off about. (I have been guilty) We have such a wide variety of offensive acts in the present to be mad about without dwelling on something from a generation ago. Like people who cant figure out basic biology. Boys have penises, girls have vaginas. People driving up your ass with their high beams on. People condoning drug abuse, shoplifting and prostitution are a few of many more relevant things to be mad about...and guys going into women's (multiple occupancy) restrooms. Boys participating in girls' sports is a worthy current thing to be upset about. If you just want to be mad about something and looking for a good thing to be mad about these are just a few of many...or putting green oe white goop on my food when I didnt ask for green or white goop.
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Draft if necessary. I chose to volunteer because, well that’s what my family has done for generations. Also, as my dad put it: volunteers can pick their job. Draftees wind up grunts. I have no respect for those that shun military service. If no one joined, then all would be draftees, no? I am a firm believer that a volunteer is better trained, and makes a better soldier than one forced to serve against their will. Someone has gotta do it.
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SPC John Tacetta
SPC Ted Heath - My implication was not clearly presented, apparently. My point is that when I joined the all volunteer Army there were plenty of volunteers that were essentially worthless: empty uniforms or worse. Plenty of guys got chaptered out or failed to ever make E-4, all volunteers.
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SPC Ted Heath
SPC John Tacetta you are right, some who volunteered and got a signing bonus we’re worthless. Not everyone can be exceptional soldiers, it’s true. I still stand behind how exceptional can one be when forced against their will? I’m sure there are exceptions to even that. After all, how do you know you like something (or dislike) unless you try it? It’s funny, though, I’ve never personally met anyone who was drafted, that I know of.
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SPC John Tacetta
SPC Ted Heath - Well, I must admit that willing is better, but sometimes you just have a shitty job that needs to be done. Lord knows, I "volunteered" for many a detail. When I got out with that 2 yr IRR commitment hanging over my head I told my mother to forget where I lived if anyone came knocking. But no one ever came knocking. Those were peaceful times.
I knew quite a few draftees back in the day and a fair amount of my NCOs fit in that category: drank the Kool-aid and became lifers. A good friend of mine even made it to LTC and I attended his retirement ceremony in the Pentagon a few years back. They're all retired now and the youngest are at least 65 years old now as the draft was stopped in '73.
I knew quite a few draftees back in the day and a fair amount of my NCOs fit in that category: drank the Kool-aid and became lifers. A good friend of mine even made it to LTC and I attended his retirement ceremony in the Pentagon a few years back. They're all retired now and the youngest are at least 65 years old now as the draft was stopped in '73.
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No reason to harbor ill will. Not everyone is made to serve. Shake his hand, wish him well and never depend on him in a fight. And then wink at his girlfriend because she knows she is dating a pussy.
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1LT (Join to see)
SPC Michael Tierney - 95+% of elected politicians and 99% of pro athletes haven’t served in the past 50 years. The unbridled hatred of Trump is a mania. He’s done more for the military than his predecessors. Find a new target.
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I agree to disagree with what you have stated my problem is this, if a person used education not to serve is one thing, but if a person went to another country to dodge the daft, is to (ME IS A DISGRACE TO OUR COUNTRY) Also like you I have served a long time and I love this country,
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