Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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Society was different then. Military Service was a passage to manhood. You had a military obligation that you had to deal with. I was a 17 year old High Schooldrop out. Many jobs would not hit me because I was a non grad but mostly it was that,obligation floating about. Many men contacted the Draft Board and “pushed up” their draft so they would be at the head of the list. They could serve their two years at the mercy of the Army and then get gainful employment. I was 17 and needed to move i needed to be 18 to “push up my draft”. Very few people in my sociology economic class went to colllege it was rare that anyone got out of serving that way. You had to know someone to get into a reserve or National Guard Unit. There were waiting lists to get in. The Air Force, Navy and Marines were a four year active duty obligation. I needed my parents permission to get into the Army at 17.
And so it was my mother told me to “ get a job or go in the Army”, not realizing tha the Army was where I wanted to be. I turned 17 in October and shipped in November.
And so it was my mother told me to “ get a job or go in the Army”, not realizing tha the Army was where I wanted to be. I turned 17 in October and shipped in November.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your experience, and some historical perspective to this issue.
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All I can say is if your not willing to defend your country against all enemies foreign and domestic then why are you living in the United States. Their might come another time when we need the draft to survive as a country. The the question will be should we draft females? If we had a high casualty rate like we did in Vietnam and still had the draft The war we have been in for over 16 yrs would have been over a long time ago. Semper Fi.
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I think they are CORWARDS...I did two tours in Nam...and damn proud of it.
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I don’t know what a draft card looks like I was enlisted in the Army before I had time to sign up for the draft.
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SPC Michael Oles SR
My Brother it was my honor in April 1968 I lost a loved on there I had to do something SSG Gerhard S.
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Don't forget to add Biden to the list not just Trump. Biden had one asthma attack when he was 10 years old. That was used as a means to keep him out of the service. He received 5 draft deferments. Now I ask you, how can someone who supposedly had asthma be a lifeguard and a football player? NOT.....
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SSgt Robert Van Buhler III
I prefer to judge politicians on their results rather than their military service. We thank Abraham Lincoln for the draft, I suppose. We have enough scruffy politicians on both sides, and the "asthmatic" touchy feely current White House occupant who likes to swim nude in front of female Secret Service agents may not be measuring up in the results department compared to his predecessor. I may only be viewing his failures, lack of character, but folks of the other political persuasion did the same thing from 2017-2021, and did it to the point of lunacy.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
SSgt Robert Van Buhler III - Bob, very good point!
I wonder if there is some way to differentiate between Biden and Trump. Both did not serve. But would there be something in the background of either that might help to say that one was okay and the other was not? I am curious.
I wonder if there is some way to differentiate between Biden and Trump. Both did not serve. But would there be something in the background of either that might help to say that one was okay and the other was not? I am curious.
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SP5 Wick Humble
Maybe, Huey, but 1.) Joe speaks respectfully of those who did serve always, and 2.) he doesn't drop the names of Patton and MacArthur (as Dodging D. did) when he has no bona fides. Who went to a military academy?
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My only response is to the premise that people who were deferred were only getting what the law said they could be deferred for. Those people who used trickery to get a deferment weren't using the standards the law set for that deferment.
The deferments were unfair because those men whose parents could afford the tuition for them to go to college with C- grades in fields that were automatic deferments like the ministry or teaching. I've known a few guys selling life insurance over the years who used those excuses. Meanwhile the poor or educationally challenged took their place at the front. Remember McNamara's Morons?
Maybe if we'd allowed men to pay substitutes like they did for the Civil War those parents could have helped a poor guy lift himself up with a trade school or the education capable could have gone to college.
The deferments were unfair because those men whose parents could afford the tuition for them to go to college with C- grades in fields that were automatic deferments like the ministry or teaching. I've known a few guys selling life insurance over the years who used those excuses. Meanwhile the poor or educationally challenged took their place at the front. Remember McNamara's Morons?
Maybe if we'd allowed men to pay substitutes like they did for the Civil War those parents could have helped a poor guy lift himself up with a trade school or the education capable could have gone to college.
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Cpl Bernard Bates
The poor guy could have been killed on the battlefield. Back during the civil war thousands of soldiers on both sides would have been killed in one battle. Just because you are wealthy doesn't mean you let the poor masses save your way of life. Thar's cowardly. Semper Fi.
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
Cowardly but expedient if your rich. The person you paid just made a gamble. If he lost his life in the gamble so what? The wealthy person was just improving on HIS chance of dying. But then isn't that what the wealthy parents did by keeping their son in school in a deferred position? The difference is that his replacement didn't get paid. He just got drafted and didn't know who he'd replaced.
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Don't that can of worms using that definition or the Democrats will be demanding reparations for them too
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I agree with your premise.
The Draft is indeed 'forced conscription', but I argue that so is the requirement placed on children that they must become educated enough to pass a series of testings, in order to become classed as 'productive and valued members of our society'.
Those children that fight this process are labelled as troublesome or worse by most of the adults in our world and, depending on their behaviour, tend to be forcibly placed in isolation from the general public, for the safety of the general public. Those children that are unable, mentally or physically, to successfully complete this forced education process are generally looked down upon and are, as opposed to the other category of children, more often or not, isolated or protected from the general public. Truth? Or just my opinion, based on my personal life's experiences?
I disagree with only one aspect of the current standards for what we call being drafted: it is not equal or equitable, it is discriminating in that females are exempt. I believe that, at the end of a child's 12-year education (notice I didn't say graduation from), they be drafted for a minimal period of not less than two years of some sort of government service; with the choice of how they serve up to the individual. It is fair that way. After some physical evaluation and training, the INDIVIDUAL can elect to be in the military (that 3.5-4% that would have joined anyway) or accept some kind of 'Peace Corp'-type service in their own local community or areas within our own nation or in other countries where people need a hand in getting back on their feet after disasters.
Back in my teen years, community volunteerism was the rule rather than the exception; so this type of 'draft' was not as necessary as it might be today (50 years later). In my step-father's day, the military was frequently 'offered' to those who were facing a Judge due to continuous minor legal issues; he chose the Navy.
At 19, my Draft number was 346 (I wasn't going to be drafted that year), so three months later I graduated from college and went to all the recruiter's offices to enlist, as I checked out the various career options available to me. I was told by all that they had a backlog a year-long of applicants and I should check back in 6-9 months.
Yes, I know I rambled a bit, but I hope my thoughts were clear enough to be understandable. Sometimes that doesn't happen.
Have yourself a great day.
The Draft is indeed 'forced conscription', but I argue that so is the requirement placed on children that they must become educated enough to pass a series of testings, in order to become classed as 'productive and valued members of our society'.
Those children that fight this process are labelled as troublesome or worse by most of the adults in our world and, depending on their behaviour, tend to be forcibly placed in isolation from the general public, for the safety of the general public. Those children that are unable, mentally or physically, to successfully complete this forced education process are generally looked down upon and are, as opposed to the other category of children, more often or not, isolated or protected from the general public. Truth? Or just my opinion, based on my personal life's experiences?
I disagree with only one aspect of the current standards for what we call being drafted: it is not equal or equitable, it is discriminating in that females are exempt. I believe that, at the end of a child's 12-year education (notice I didn't say graduation from), they be drafted for a minimal period of not less than two years of some sort of government service; with the choice of how they serve up to the individual. It is fair that way. After some physical evaluation and training, the INDIVIDUAL can elect to be in the military (that 3.5-4% that would have joined anyway) or accept some kind of 'Peace Corp'-type service in their own local community or areas within our own nation or in other countries where people need a hand in getting back on their feet after disasters.
Back in my teen years, community volunteerism was the rule rather than the exception; so this type of 'draft' was not as necessary as it might be today (50 years later). In my step-father's day, the military was frequently 'offered' to those who were facing a Judge due to continuous minor legal issues; he chose the Navy.
At 19, my Draft number was 346 (I wasn't going to be drafted that year), so three months later I graduated from college and went to all the recruiter's offices to enlist, as I checked out the various career options available to me. I was told by all that they had a backlog a year-long of applicants and I should check back in 6-9 months.
Yes, I know I rambled a bit, but I hope my thoughts were clear enough to be understandable. Sometimes that doesn't happen.
Have yourself a great day.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
I like David's approach. If there is a Draft, then it should include everybody, equally. There should be a wide option of service, such as a "Peace Corp-like" service that does not see combat. Also, service in lieu of jail time could also continue to be an option.
I personally do NOT want the Draft to return. However World History can make liars of us all.
I personally do NOT want the Draft to return. However World History can make liars of us all.
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