Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
A great, thought provoking post. Nice to see a respectable, well thought out post, with a bare minimum of name-calling or vehement commenting in response.
That being said, and as I have said before, I would like to point out a few of the things I saw after I enlisted in the USCG in July 79. I made 3rd Class PO in Sep 81. Imagine my surprise when I found out I had 35-40yr old E-2's and 3's working for me (I was barely 20 at that point). Most of these guys had enlisted in the USCG to escape being drafted into the Army or Marines. Some of them (not all) couldn't give 2 craps about uniforms, military bearing, saluting, standing watch, etc. Drug use was rampant off duty, on duty, standing watch, even when underway. All some of them cared about was they didn't go to Vietnam and that was it. It took Pres. Reagan's RIF Program in the early 80's to sort them out and get them out of the military. Once the deadwood were gone, Military Bearing and Professionalism went through the roof, at least in the USCG.
As someone who has seen the end results of a draft coupled with an unpopular war, I cannot whole heartedly support a "required National Service" to include a Military commitment from today's youth. I do realize that in times of "war", it maybe necessary (a draft) but it tends to create more of a problem than it tries to solve. JMHO.
That being said, and as I have said before, I would like to point out a few of the things I saw after I enlisted in the USCG in July 79. I made 3rd Class PO in Sep 81. Imagine my surprise when I found out I had 35-40yr old E-2's and 3's working for me (I was barely 20 at that point). Most of these guys had enlisted in the USCG to escape being drafted into the Army or Marines. Some of them (not all) couldn't give 2 craps about uniforms, military bearing, saluting, standing watch, etc. Drug use was rampant off duty, on duty, standing watch, even when underway. All some of them cared about was they didn't go to Vietnam and that was it. It took Pres. Reagan's RIF Program in the early 80's to sort them out and get them out of the military. Once the deadwood were gone, Military Bearing and Professionalism went through the roof, at least in the USCG.
As someone who has seen the end results of a draft coupled with an unpopular war, I cannot whole heartedly support a "required National Service" to include a Military commitment from today's youth. I do realize that in times of "war", it maybe necessary (a draft) but it tends to create more of a problem than it tries to solve. JMHO.
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SSG Gerhard S.
I served with a guy in my Long Range Surveillance unit who joined the CG during Vietnam... He told us the joke was on him when he found himself on a river patrol boat in Vietnam.... He went on to become A Ranger, and SF
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After a few decades, I believe it is a mute argument. To quote Hillary (ugh), "At this point, what difference does it make?"
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GySgt William Hardy
It does make a difference if these same people are running for public office. It speaks to their character.
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SPC John Tacetta
Or as George Bush said: "I think we can all agree that the past is over." God, I love that one!
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SPC John Tacetta - Or as he once said "Ummm, you know how I am not good with...Uhhhhh, Words"
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I have enough problems worrying about my own conscience. It’s not my job to dictate another man’s morality.
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LCDR (Join to see)
No one is "dictating" the morality of others in this discussion. However, we are showing approval or disapproval.
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SCPO (Join to see)
And that's your interpretation of the sergeant's editorial. Entering the military in 1969, at the apex of the anti-war movement in the United States and in other places around the globe, I witnessed a highly active and vitriolic physical and verbal display of condemnation for those who burned their draft cards or who fled to some British Commonwealth country. I also saw the very visceral support of those same persons by the shaggy-dressed, long-haired protesters of the day. In every case, people on both sides of the main argument sure sounded a Hell of a lot like they were "dictating" their political, moral, or ethical positions onto those boys and young men who, because of the Draft, were faced with one mighty big decision as to which 'fork in the road' their lives would take.
Call it what you will, but the federal government, the Media, social networks on the Internet, religious sorts from every faith, and the public, in general, are still "dictating" their take on every issue facing the world today.
For example, take public education and Critical Race Theory; LGBTQ+; Trans persons, sports, and bathrooms; Immigration and the Southern Border Wall; Congressional GOP v. Dems; et al.
Again, call it what you will. I call it dictating and I'm done 'splaining.
Call it what you will, but the federal government, the Media, social networks on the Internet, religious sorts from every faith, and the public, in general, are still "dictating" their take on every issue facing the world today.
For example, take public education and Critical Race Theory; LGBTQ+; Trans persons, sports, and bathrooms; Immigration and the Southern Border Wall; Congressional GOP v. Dems; et al.
Again, call it what you will. I call it dictating and I'm done 'splaining.
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I disagree with the author's arguments. I was drafted and served after my educational deferments ended upon graduation in 1968.
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - Hmm. OED online says the following.
"Compulsory:
1Required by law or a rule; obligatory.
‘compulsory military service’
example sentences
‘it was compulsory to attend mass’
‘Military service is still compulsory in Russia and men aged 18 serve two years.’
‘All he had to look forward to in this country was death, a prison camp or compulsory military service.’
‘The completion of a training programme is now one of the compulsory requirements of the scheme.’"
I'd say that Compulsory Conscription describes a system in which all eligible candidates must complete a term of service (e.g,, Israel), but seeing as you appear to be one prone to infinitely split hairs kindly permit me to remove the hair and rephrase my statement. The US has never had universal, compulsory conscription. That is, unlike some other countries, the US has never required that ALL members of the Militia (remember 10 USC Section 246) complete a term of service.
"Compulsory:
1Required by law or a rule; obligatory.
‘compulsory military service’
example sentences
‘it was compulsory to attend mass’
‘Military service is still compulsory in Russia and men aged 18 serve two years.’
‘All he had to look forward to in this country was death, a prison camp or compulsory military service.’
‘The completion of a training programme is now one of the compulsory requirements of the scheme.’"
I'd say that Compulsory Conscription describes a system in which all eligible candidates must complete a term of service (e.g,, Israel), but seeing as you appear to be one prone to infinitely split hairs kindly permit me to remove the hair and rephrase my statement. The US has never had universal, compulsory conscription. That is, unlike some other countries, the US has never required that ALL members of the Militia (remember 10 USC Section 246) complete a term of service.
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SMSgt Bob W.
PO2 Mike Keyes - Did I miss something? What does WWII have to do with Viet Nam Draft Dodgers?
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PO2 Mike Keyes
SMSgt Bob W. - It was in response to Major Horning's comment " If you're worried about getting hurt, maimed or killed, join a branch such as the USAF, USN, USCG where you most likely be in harm's way." I'm pretty sure, given the context, that he meant to say 'likely won't be...'.
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It's interesting how political viewpoints about deferments change with presidential elections. Deferments were/are okay when your political candidate used them, but it's 'draft dodging' when the other guy used them.
Quite a lot of men used deferments during Vietnam. Most of them didn't go into politics and no one chides them publicly.
Quite a lot of men used deferments during Vietnam. Most of them didn't go into politics and no one chides them publicly.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for reading, and taking the time to comment. You've made an excellent point. It seems, for the politically-minded, the outrage is often selective.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
~ Here's A Little Something For Our Civilian Counter-Parts ~
They Have NO IDEA How Great It Feels To Have Served.
And Be A VET
They Have NO IDEA How Great It Feels To Have Served.
And Be A VET
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SP5 Larry Boggs
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney I agree although it took me awhile to get to that understanding I am very proud to have served my country and gone to Vietnam I wasn’t a hero but I also did run and hide from my obligation as a citizen I took my chance and I survived
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This is why this country has people like the ones that did go to support this country, as for the people that ran away they will have to live with them self and should be more than grateful that someone gave their life for them so they could run and hide.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your service, and for weighing in on this issue. Sadly, regarding Vietnam, far too many gave their lives, futures, and health for a war that was abandoned by weak-kneed politicians. Even more tragically, S Vietnam, despite all our lives, and treasure lost, ended up in the brutal hands of the Communist North.
Perhaps things would be more palatable, if we set out to accomplish something, and then actually follow through, and DO IT! At least, then one might have a sense that all those lost lives, futures, and health were risked, and lost for a purpose.
Respectful regards.
Perhaps things would be more palatable, if we set out to accomplish something, and then actually follow through, and DO IT! At least, then one might have a sense that all those lost lives, futures, and health were risked, and lost for a purpose.
Respectful regards.
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I believe the last person drafted was 1972, so that would make the last draft dodger, a young man in 1972. Here’s some news, that was over 50 years ago. I was not happy with draft dodgers at the time. I think draft dodgers need to carry that stain on the record all their lives just like other criminals. But 50 years is 50 years and it’s long past the time to forget about it. Not forgive, but to forget about it. There must be some sort of statue limitations on how long you hold a grudge.
There have been politicians that I have supported who did not serve, and they’re also been some politicians who serve that I did not support. I patronize businesses without knowing if their CEO served or not.
This question is 50 years old. In my humble opinion, get over.
There have been politicians that I have supported who did not serve, and they’re also been some politicians who serve that I did not support. I patronize businesses without knowing if their CEO served or not.
This question is 50 years old. In my humble opinion, get over.
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My brother was sent to Nam right out of boot camp even when everyone was pulling out. For me , I was just to young and miss Nam. As for the yellow-belly draft dodgers and pot smoking hippies, hope you vomit ever time you brush ur teeth or comb ur hair while looking into a mirror. And no I don't hold any grudges.
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GySgt Jack Wallace
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - You know A1C Rick , most of your postings are funny and I just laugh. But, this time I think you and I are on the same page brother.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
GySgt Jack Wallace -
I love Laughter, But When Some SOB Pizzes Me OFF,
I Go After Their Jugular. ~ I'm Not A Dove Or Much Of A Peaceful Man
When Certain Things Are Said Or Done ~ "Give Your SOUL To GOD, Because
URANUS Is MINE".
I love Laughter, But When Some SOB Pizzes Me OFF,
I Go After Their Jugular. ~ I'm Not A Dove Or Much Of A Peaceful Man
When Certain Things Are Said Or Done ~ "Give Your SOUL To GOD, Because
URANUS Is MINE".
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