Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
I don't believe we should. As a 30 yr veteran I feel like the Military is something that you have to feel! If you force the unwilling to enter service, their heart won't be in it, and it could get good soldiers killed. Let the little whining draft dodgers stay at home with their parents, while the real patriots protect them and their freedoms!!
MSG R Gates (Ret)
MSG R Gates (Ret)
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SFC Albert A. Green. I often see someone my age and he will not make eye contact or look the other way, I ware my V N. Hat most of the time. I wonder how he lives with what he did and what does he say to his grandkids when they ask why he wasn’t in the war.
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I don't agree with your basic premise. But I respect that it is a thought out one.
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I had the great fortune to run into Jane Fonda in a upscale club in Atlanta when she was married to Ted Turner. I had had one to many teqkillyou shots that a friend was buying copious amounts of. My father was Special Forces in Vietnam and I remember meeting my dad for the first time when he left Vietnam after second tour in Naples Italy. They kept him there for 3 years while he became civilized again. I remember listening to he and my mother “ who also was career Army” talk about Fonda and Kerry, so when I had her in my sights and very limited control of expressing my feelings I let her have it with both barrels and she had no doubt of my disgust and disdain for her. I felt my pop’s laughing from on high. I had a mixed audience in the club, I feel I got more claps then boo’s.
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SSG Edward Tilton
The only time I got worked up about Jane Fonda was BARBARELLA.
I wasn’t interested in her mind
I wasn’t interested in her mind
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I think you stated it very well.... Trump had a Doctor state a lie on his behalf, a statement that for all intents and purposes is "Under Penalty of Perjury"....
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SSG Michael Doolittle
Trump went on after this letter to play sports, what more proof do you need, as for Clinton / Cheney et al they all used Educational Deferments, G.W Bush used his father to get him an "Unavailable" slot in the Texas Air Guard.... I agree with you about the draft, and the only one I respect for their decision was Ali, who lost his title and Millions of $$$$$ and served time in prison, but kept his honor and integrity
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SSG Gerhard S.
SSG Michael Doolittle - For the record, I agree with you about Muhammad Ali, though I would point this out... "In 1967, Ali was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to five years in prison and fined $10,000. However, he remained free while he appealed his case. The Supreme Court in 1971 unanimously overturned Ali’s conviction."
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - Ali was sidelined that entire time which is a long period in the professional life of a boxer and he could not make money in the ring during that time. That probably would have been the end of a lesser man.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
It's been pointed out that, at the time of his deferments, Trump was a Democrat.
Interesting...
Interesting...
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The draft is something that the leaders of our country decided that was needed for the betterment of our country. Sort of like the orders for people to stay in their homes right now. If someone thought they were above those laws/policies (because they had money), then why should they be the ones to make the new laws or policies? It's an ethical issue at its core. Do you really want those who think they are too good to follow policies to make them?
Also, when one of the first elementary school shootings happened in 2017, POTUS said that if he were there he would "charge right in" to defend those children. (Paraphrasing, don't recall the actual quote) and then the first snippy answer given was, Well, if your legs are bad and you couldn't serve in the military, then how would your bad legs allow you to "charge right in"? The other snippy answer I had was, Sure he'd charge in, because he'd have a dozen or so Secret Service Agents armed to the teeth with him to protect him.....
I also find it sort of amusing that our current POTUS, who idolized Hitler, has his own SS.... (There was an article in Vanity Fair from the 90s about how he did, if you don't believe me, Google it. I was shocked when I first read it.)
Also, when one of the first elementary school shootings happened in 2017, POTUS said that if he were there he would "charge right in" to defend those children. (Paraphrasing, don't recall the actual quote) and then the first snippy answer given was, Well, if your legs are bad and you couldn't serve in the military, then how would your bad legs allow you to "charge right in"? The other snippy answer I had was, Sure he'd charge in, because he'd have a dozen or so Secret Service Agents armed to the teeth with him to protect him.....
I also find it sort of amusing that our current POTUS, who idolized Hitler, has his own SS.... (There was an article in Vanity Fair from the 90s about how he did, if you don't believe me, Google it. I was shocked when I first read it.)
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I believe a lot like the preceding person. If an individuals leaves before he is called I don’t like it but they have broken no law and it is their right to emmigrate. If they receive notice and leave that is criminal and they should have to spend jail time. What trump did was follow the law. Don’t like people like that but it is not illegal. FYI I did send over 6 years in service including 32 months in Vietnam as a combat engineer and advisor to ARVN.
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Just a thought: Slaves were neither paid nor given benefits; however, I do believe soldiers were both paid and provided benefits.
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SPC Michael Tierney
In 1967, I believe my pay was about $69/month. The benefits when I was discharged a couple years later were great. I never felt I was being subjected to anything close to slavery.
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I remember the case of Mohammad Ali, formerly known as Cassius Clay, who was an astonishing athlete and Olympic Gold Medal winner as a boxer. He refused to be drafted, and accepted his legal punishment and went to prison. I entirely disagreed with his position, but I entirely respected his courage to accept punishment and do his time in prison.
I do NOT agree that a draft is involuntary servitude. If you are a citizen of the United States, you must defend the republic that defends you. If your country tells you they require your services for the survival of the nation, then you must serve your nation or face the consequences. If you disagree with your nation's policies, then file a lawsuit after you report to duty. But don't ask others to defend your nation while you live in safety, based on the efforts of better men and women.
My father taught me not to depend on the efforts of others, but to make my own way n the world. We haven't taken welfare, and we haven't run away from danger. I'm the 7th generation of my family to serve in the Army, in the Revolutonary War, on both sides of the Civil War, in both World Wars, Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War. Garry Owen!
I do NOT agree that a draft is involuntary servitude. If you are a citizen of the United States, you must defend the republic that defends you. If your country tells you they require your services for the survival of the nation, then you must serve your nation or face the consequences. If you disagree with your nation's policies, then file a lawsuit after you report to duty. But don't ask others to defend your nation while you live in safety, based on the efforts of better men and women.
My father taught me not to depend on the efforts of others, but to make my own way n the world. We haven't taken welfare, and we haven't run away from danger. I'm the 7th generation of my family to serve in the Army, in the Revolutonary War, on both sides of the Civil War, in both World Wars, Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War. Garry Owen!
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - Gerhard, you seem unable or unwilling to appreciate that just as you are guaranteed to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Freedom" you are also obligated to to answer the call. That's the Constitution speaking, not me. If you want to call it servitude, who am I to argue, it is called the service after all.
I concede your point: being drafted is servitude and your freedoms are restricted during your service. You need to "man up" and accept that that's a condition of your citizenship. Too often we forget that freedom has a price. This is part of that price. One of the conditions of being a citizen of this country is that you may be impressed for a period of 6 to 8 years, like it or not. You can pay that price or another, you still retain that freedom.
Call it what you will, service is not slavery, at least not as it was practiced in this country. You are not chattel and neither you or your children may be sold to another. Your suggestion otherwise belittles the torment that the slaves that helped build this country endured.
I concede your point: being drafted is servitude and your freedoms are restricted during your service. You need to "man up" and accept that that's a condition of your citizenship. Too often we forget that freedom has a price. This is part of that price. One of the conditions of being a citizen of this country is that you may be impressed for a period of 6 to 8 years, like it or not. You can pay that price or another, you still retain that freedom.
Call it what you will, service is not slavery, at least not as it was practiced in this country. You are not chattel and neither you or your children may be sold to another. Your suggestion otherwise belittles the torment that the slaves that helped build this country endured.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SPC John Tacetta - Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter. I'm curious though, since you state "That's the Constitution speaking...", if you could quote the clause in the Constitution that indicates "One of the conditions of being a citizen of this country is that you may be impressed for a period of 6 to 8 years, like it or not. "
Secondly, though our politicians DID take us to war in Vietnam, and in other places, one could reasonably argue that doing so did nothing to guarantee our freedoms here in the US. The results speak for themselves. After our men and women sacrificed, or were sacrificed, after wasting our blood, and treasure in places like Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan for a generation (well after Al Qaeda was destroyed), what greater freedoms do we have to show for it? Vietnam was left to the Socialists, Afghanistan is returning to the Taliban, and Iraq is left weaker, more divided, and more violent than it was before we arrived.
As I suggested, if our freedoms are at risk, one suspects there will be no shortage of volunteers to defend our freedoms from interlopers, at least of the foreign variety. To suggest our involvement in many of our conflicts made the US any more free, fails to align with the reality or the results.
Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful reply.
Respectful Regards.
Secondly, though our politicians DID take us to war in Vietnam, and in other places, one could reasonably argue that doing so did nothing to guarantee our freedoms here in the US. The results speak for themselves. After our men and women sacrificed, or were sacrificed, after wasting our blood, and treasure in places like Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan for a generation (well after Al Qaeda was destroyed), what greater freedoms do we have to show for it? Vietnam was left to the Socialists, Afghanistan is returning to the Taliban, and Iraq is left weaker, more divided, and more violent than it was before we arrived.
As I suggested, if our freedoms are at risk, one suspects there will be no shortage of volunteers to defend our freedoms from interlopers, at least of the foreign variety. To suggest our involvement in many of our conflicts made the US any more free, fails to align with the reality or the results.
Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful reply.
Respectful Regards.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
There once was a fighter named Clay
He could rhyme anything he could say.
But is career, it is sad, went overlong by a tad.
In the end, he couldn't rhyme.
He could rhyme anything he could say.
But is career, it is sad, went overlong by a tad.
In the end, he couldn't rhyme.
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MAJ Hugh Blanchard
I still admire Cassius Clay, later known as Muhammed Ali. Thank you to SSG Seidel for enlightening me on the particulars of the case. I think that his willingness to go to jail rather than submit to something with which he disagreed is the primary reason for my regard towards Muhammed Ali. I don't hold the same regard for those who disagreed with the draft and then fled to another country or went 'underground' to avoid military service. I don't believe that the constitutionality of the Selective Service Act has been tested before the Supreme Court. I do believe that the maintenance of a free society requires that we citizens defend the country. Until the Supremes rule against Selective Service, I believe that a citizen must submit to the draft when the nation calls him or her to service.
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Thank you for raising an intelligent issue. I do not now and did not as a young man consider the Draft to be any kind of unjust form of servitude. I confess to be from another era, my active duty enlistment in the Marines ended in July 1958. Just 13 years after my father's WW2 enlistment ended and I have brother between us whose term in Korea was also Volunteer.
It is almost a rite of passage in my family. War after foolish war. Generation after generation. Why?
You answered that early. We live in a country until recently envied by people all over the planet, the land of the free and home of the brave. My father often stated that there were many heroes, the overwhelming majority were never noticed or ribboned. Only a few lived to be recognized.
I like that bumper sticker that says "Freedom Isn't Free". I like every other VET on this website swore an oath to defend the USA and it's CONSTITUTION against ALL ENEMIES foreign and domestic(other Americans). In the service that meant even with your life. To ensure all those great things we enjoy as Americans. Consider it paying dues to the most magnificent club on earth. By your service drafted or volunteer, the uniform is the same. The job to protect our families right to all those benefits into the future.
As for Trump he is in my mind a Traitor. The doctor who falcified his bone spur issued admitted it, his practices offices were in a Trump building, Sr. Trump indicated he might have to move out. Trumps Gfather fled Austria to avoid the draft. Austo-Hungarian War, was refused return when he tried to go home. Father never served. What this fellow has been doing his whole life has been criminal. Some envy him, others jealous none are Patriots in my mind. Patriots don't an indivual who makes sport of the Constitution, threatens people doing their sworn duty, makes fun of the parents of the fallen. The oath we took didn't have an expiration date, that will be noted on my headstone.
Thanks for the opportunity Tom ("Mike") O'Day
It is almost a rite of passage in my family. War after foolish war. Generation after generation. Why?
You answered that early. We live in a country until recently envied by people all over the planet, the land of the free and home of the brave. My father often stated that there were many heroes, the overwhelming majority were never noticed or ribboned. Only a few lived to be recognized.
I like that bumper sticker that says "Freedom Isn't Free". I like every other VET on this website swore an oath to defend the USA and it's CONSTITUTION against ALL ENEMIES foreign and domestic(other Americans). In the service that meant even with your life. To ensure all those great things we enjoy as Americans. Consider it paying dues to the most magnificent club on earth. By your service drafted or volunteer, the uniform is the same. The job to protect our families right to all those benefits into the future.
As for Trump he is in my mind a Traitor. The doctor who falcified his bone spur issued admitted it, his practices offices were in a Trump building, Sr. Trump indicated he might have to move out. Trumps Gfather fled Austria to avoid the draft. Austo-Hungarian War, was refused return when he tried to go home. Father never served. What this fellow has been doing his whole life has been criminal. Some envy him, others jealous none are Patriots in my mind. Patriots don't an indivual who makes sport of the Constitution, threatens people doing their sworn duty, makes fun of the parents of the fallen. The oath we took didn't have an expiration date, that will be noted on my headstone.
Thanks for the opportunity Tom ("Mike") O'Day
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SPC John Tacetta
SPC Michael Tierney - Not then. Now? Russia, China. I suppose not even now, but he is a loose cannon for sure.
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SSG Edward Tilton
On the one hand he should have served, on the other, not in my fox hole. He would be complaining and talking about himself until I left him for the enemy.
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