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Hopefully Not Looting, That is a Bozo No No! COL Randall C. LTC Kevin B. LTC Eugene Chu Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen MAJ Ken Landgren Maj Kim Patterson Maj (Join to see) CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana MSgt Steve Sweeney MSG Stan Hutchison MSgt Michael Bischoff SSgt Richard Kensinger 1SG (Join to see) SFC Jo Ann Klawitter PO1 Tony Holland PO1 Brian Austin SP5 Dennis Loberger SGT Charlie Lee CPL LaForest Gray SrA John Monette
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Posted from youtube.com
Russia
Ukraine
War Crimes
Retail
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 4
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I posted this on the YouTube link too and it may be of interest to ponder:
To be clear pillage is stealing/destruction of property from the local populace that is not justified by military necessity. That indeed is prohibited by the UN. What is interesting here is we are looking at food and as such that may fall under a slightly different term with a different standard, foraging. That deals with what happens when what is taken is for military necessity instead of personal gain. The legal standard for foraging in the Geneva convention is much less clear and things done for military necessity are generally permissible.
This is a good article explaining the grey area:
https://international-review.icrc.org/sites/default/files/reviews-pdf/2022-01/for-private-or-personal-use-special-intent-requirement-pillage-rome-statute-icc-915.pdf
To be clear pillage is stealing/destruction of property from the local populace that is not justified by military necessity. That indeed is prohibited by the UN. What is interesting here is we are looking at food and as such that may fall under a slightly different term with a different standard, foraging. That deals with what happens when what is taken is for military necessity instead of personal gain. The legal standard for foraging in the Geneva convention is much less clear and things done for military necessity are generally permissible.
This is a good article explaining the grey area:
https://international-review.icrc.org/sites/default/files/reviews-pdf/2022-01/for-private-or-personal-use-special-intent-requirement-pillage-rome-statute-icc-915.pdf
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SPC Kevin Ford
SPC John Tacetta - No, they don't use that term, nor does the Geneva Convention. What you will find is a discussion on "military necessity" and the meaning of "for private or personal use" as a factor in the crime of looting. It appears that the Geneva Convention talks about what is prohibited and does not spend a lot of time talking about what is allowed so it shouldn't be a surprise that term isn't in the Geneva Convention.
I can However, find several articles discussing concepts around it that use that term and it's relationship to the Geneva Convention.
"The ICC also explicitly outlaws pillaging, which they define as an appropriation of private property that occurs during an IAC or a NIAC, without the owner’s consent, for private or personal use. Thus, commanders and judge advocates must understand the distinction between where legal foraging ends and pillaging begins, particularly as international law assigns criminal liability to superiors who fail to curb subordinates’ unlawful activity. "
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/military-foraging-historical-practice-and-contemporary-advice
Of course I'm not a lawyer, certainly not an expert on international law.
I can However, find several articles discussing concepts around it that use that term and it's relationship to the Geneva Convention.
"The ICC also explicitly outlaws pillaging, which they define as an appropriation of private property that occurs during an IAC or a NIAC, without the owner’s consent, for private or personal use. Thus, commanders and judge advocates must understand the distinction between where legal foraging ends and pillaging begins, particularly as international law assigns criminal liability to superiors who fail to curb subordinates’ unlawful activity. "
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/military-foraging-historical-practice-and-contemporary-advice
Of course I'm not a lawyer, certainly not an expert on international law.
Military Foraging: Historical Practice and Contemporary Advice
Gen. Ulysses S. Grant’s prudent navigation of nascent legal concepts to diminish his force’s reliance on supply lines and forage for provisions enabled battlefield
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SPC Kevin Ford
SPC John Tacetta - Perhaps, we don't know enough from the video. That's why I have been careful not to say it as a certainty, only a could be. Ukraine does have troops in Russia in extended supply lines. Is it possible that the local commander sent down some troops to requisition some food? Sure, certainly possible. Is it possible the younger enlisted took the opportunity to do something stupid and make a silly video? Well I don't know about your time as a lower enlisted guy but based on the
high jinks we got up to...
high jinks we got up to...
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SPC John Tacetta
SPC Kevin Ford - As the Lord knows and you point out, the young 'uns do carry on sometime. Myself, I never professed to be an angel. But, like I said elsewhere, it's just speeding on the Autobahn: it's just what happens in that environment. If anything, this is a violation, not a felony. Extra duty, and carry on.
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Even if this is truly Ukrainians, the general tenor of the war has the Ukrainian side taking the high road in most actions. I'd suspect foul play knowing how Russians are eager to deceive. If it is Ukrainians, punish the offenders and move on.
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Thanks, Chip that was interesting to listen to
What do you think? Is it real?
What do you think? Is it real?
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