Posted on Dec 20, 2022
Why the Marine Corps may nix gender identifiers for drill instructors
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This is a duplicate discussion and the contents have been merged with the original discussion. Click below to see more on this topic...
What are your thoughts on a study's recommendation to the USMC to drop gender identifiers (Ma'am/Sir) for recruits during basic training?
A recent article* in the Marine Corps Times highlighted some of the suggestions that the University of Pittsburg given by a a study the Corps commissioned back in 2020. The study was in response to a Congressional directive to make boot camp training fully coed.*
The study was to “analyze combinations of gender-integrated training and make recommendations for models that integrate genders to the greatest extent possible while continuing to train Marines to established standards”.
First, to be clear, this is apparently only directed at recruits during basic training. This is not a, "the entire Corps needs to drop gender identifiers" thing.
Second, the study is not some "woke-fest" report and covered a wide variety of topics from recruit injury rates and training deficits to boot camp staffing challenges and male-female interaction*.
Third, according to the study (have to go by that ... it's been a LONG time since I or most of you were at basic...), “The Army, Navy, and Coast Guard effectively de-emphasize gender in an integrated environment,” the report says. “Instead of saying ‘ma’am’ or ‘sir,’ recruits in these Services refer to their drill instructors using their ranks or roles followed by their last names."
So, to the pertinent question - what's your view?
There is some basis to the rational in the report that, "Gendered identifiers prime recruits to think about or visually search for a drill instructor’s gender first, before their rank or role.” In other words, gender before authority.
The Army, Navy and Coast Guard already do this with things such as, "Yes Drill Sergeant!", "No Drill Sergeant!" and "I'm a worm not worthy of sharing the same ground as you Drill Sergeant!" instead of "Yes Ma'am!", "No Sir!", and "I'm a worm not worthy of sharing the same ground as you Ma'am!". Again, this recommendation is only for basic training and wouldn't go Corps-wide.
On the other hand, as Col. Howard Hall, the chief of staff for Marine Corps Training and Education Command, related - it’s not as simple as tweaking training-level policies.
“It’s not something we would change overnight,” Hall said. “We’ve got a history of ‘sir, ma’am, sir, ma’am.’ If we change something at the root level, how do we make the corresponding change at the Fleet Marine Force?"
His point is cultural change is very tough - while it is imperative that cultural change regarding a grave injustice happen regardless of how tough or the costs, does it merit a change in something like this?
Thoughts?
Keep it clean and try to comment on the merit and facts. I know there will be knee-jerk reactions on both sides of the topic which is why I tried to lay out all the facts I was able to dig up on the matter.
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* Recent article - https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2022/12/20/why-the-marine-corps-may-nix-gender-identifiers-for-drill-instructors/
* Direction to Corps for boot camp to be fully coed - https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2020/09/01/marines-lay-out-plans-for-gender-integrating-boot-camp-at-the-platoon-level/
* Side note regarding the male-female interaction - I didn't realize the Corps was the service with the youngest average age and the lowest percentage of female members (I knew the fewest, but didn't realize the youngest).
Lt Col Charlie Brown PO1 William "Chip" Nagel Maj Robert Thornton SGT Gerald “Jerry” Harrell Sgt (Join to see) SPC Gary C. SGT Charlie Lee SFC Bernard Walko SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM Cpl Vic Burk MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. MSgt James Parker SGT Ed Matyjasik LTC (Join to see) CPT Aaron Kletzing SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSgt (Join to see) SFC Ralph E Kelley SSG Carlos Madden
A recent article* in the Marine Corps Times highlighted some of the suggestions that the University of Pittsburg given by a a study the Corps commissioned back in 2020. The study was in response to a Congressional directive to make boot camp training fully coed.*
The study was to “analyze combinations of gender-integrated training and make recommendations for models that integrate genders to the greatest extent possible while continuing to train Marines to established standards”.
First, to be clear, this is apparently only directed at recruits during basic training. This is not a, "the entire Corps needs to drop gender identifiers" thing.
Second, the study is not some "woke-fest" report and covered a wide variety of topics from recruit injury rates and training deficits to boot camp staffing challenges and male-female interaction*.
Third, according to the study (have to go by that ... it's been a LONG time since I or most of you were at basic...), “The Army, Navy, and Coast Guard effectively de-emphasize gender in an integrated environment,” the report says. “Instead of saying ‘ma’am’ or ‘sir,’ recruits in these Services refer to their drill instructors using their ranks or roles followed by their last names."
So, to the pertinent question - what's your view?
There is some basis to the rational in the report that, "Gendered identifiers prime recruits to think about or visually search for a drill instructor’s gender first, before their rank or role.” In other words, gender before authority.
The Army, Navy and Coast Guard already do this with things such as, "Yes Drill Sergeant!", "No Drill Sergeant!" and "I'm a worm not worthy of sharing the same ground as you Drill Sergeant!" instead of "Yes Ma'am!", "No Sir!", and "I'm a worm not worthy of sharing the same ground as you Ma'am!". Again, this recommendation is only for basic training and wouldn't go Corps-wide.
On the other hand, as Col. Howard Hall, the chief of staff for Marine Corps Training and Education Command, related - it’s not as simple as tweaking training-level policies.
“It’s not something we would change overnight,” Hall said. “We’ve got a history of ‘sir, ma’am, sir, ma’am.’ If we change something at the root level, how do we make the corresponding change at the Fleet Marine Force?"
His point is cultural change is very tough - while it is imperative that cultural change regarding a grave injustice happen regardless of how tough or the costs, does it merit a change in something like this?
Thoughts?
Keep it clean and try to comment on the merit and facts. I know there will be knee-jerk reactions on both sides of the topic which is why I tried to lay out all the facts I was able to dig up on the matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Recent article - https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2022/12/20/why-the-marine-corps-may-nix-gender-identifiers-for-drill-instructors/
* Direction to Corps for boot camp to be fully coed - https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2020/09/01/marines-lay-out-plans-for-gender-integrating-boot-camp-at-the-platoon-level/
* Side note regarding the male-female interaction - I didn't realize the Corps was the service with the youngest average age and the lowest percentage of female members (I knew the fewest, but didn't realize the youngest).
Lt Col Charlie Brown PO1 William "Chip" Nagel Maj Robert Thornton SGT Gerald “Jerry” Harrell Sgt (Join to see) SPC Gary C. SGT Charlie Lee SFC Bernard Walko SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM Cpl Vic Burk MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. MSgt James Parker SGT Ed Matyjasik LTC (Join to see) CPT Aaron Kletzing SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSgt (Join to see) SFC Ralph E Kelley SSG Carlos Madden
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