Posted on Nov 7, 2014
Disrespected while correcting a Soldier, how would you handle this situation?
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Ok so there I was at a court-martial asking a Soldier why he was wearing ACUs and not ASUs. He started to catch an attitude, so I told him to go to parade rest. He turned away from me looking at my paralegal, putting his hands in his pockets.
My paralegal tells him that he does not need to be looking at him, but at me, because I was the one addressing him, and that he needs to show respect. As the Soldier continues to stare out at my paralegal with his hands in his pockets, I continue to correct him when a civilian comes out to where I was correcting the Soldier stating that she had work to do and I could "yell" at him some other time.
I was so mind boggled and dumbfounded because said civilian used to be in the military. I'm sorry, but the last time I checked the Soldier was given a direct order by a CPT and myself that the duty uniform for the court-martial was ASUs and an alternate uniform had to be approved by the judge, so I was doing my job by asking him why he was in the wrong uniform and then correcting him when he began to disrespect me.
I felt so disrespected I just walked away and sat in a room to cool off.
How would you have handled the situation?
My paralegal tells him that he does not need to be looking at him, but at me, because I was the one addressing him, and that he needs to show respect. As the Soldier continues to stare out at my paralegal with his hands in his pockets, I continue to correct him when a civilian comes out to where I was correcting the Soldier stating that she had work to do and I could "yell" at him some other time.
I was so mind boggled and dumbfounded because said civilian used to be in the military. I'm sorry, but the last time I checked the Soldier was given a direct order by a CPT and myself that the duty uniform for the court-martial was ASUs and an alternate uniform had to be approved by the judge, so I was doing my job by asking him why he was in the wrong uniform and then correcting him when he began to disrespect me.
I felt so disrespected I just walked away and sat in a room to cool off.
How would you have handled the situation?
Disrespect
Civilians
Counseling
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 380
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Captain, do you think the Soldier was at the court-martial because he was good a following orders?
I suggest you leave that situation to the Sr Non-com and get back to being an officer.
I suggest you leave that situation to the Sr Non-com and get back to being an officer.
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Done! Charge sheet thrown at the Sgt and a free car ride to the BN CO's office. Goodbye E-5, hello E-4!
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I'd start out with a counseling statement and I would figure out some really shitty extra duty, every time the soldier has a problem with my authority I'd right another counseling statement. All it takes is 3 counseling statements to put a soldier up for a article 15. I had a problem with one soldier during OIF, I was a white Sgt. and he was black and told me because I was a white Sgt he wouldn't do anything. He continued to be a problem, but I was persistent and he lost his rank. Am glad I am out of the Army because it used to be being an NCO was easy but now the bears aren't afraid of the park rangers anymore, the Army has gotten to racial.
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Where was his chain of command. Doesn't he suppose to have a NCO escort if he is confined?
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Tell the civilian, if she interrupt me again, it will be the last thing she does here.
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Where in the hell was a court martial proceedings taking place with civilians trying to work? Venue should have been appropriate first of all and then the proper reaction could've taken place! Hooaaah!
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Classic example of why I retired 31 years ago. The NCO authority was being slowly but surely stripped away. This authority was being destroyed by senior NCO's fraternizing with junior and mid grade officers and lower grade enlisted. It seemed to be reaching the point where many were on first name basis publicly and while in uniform. I had many officers and CMSGT's that I was also friends with but I always kept that arm's length separation of knowing when and where. Inthis case I would have put the person in a brace and explained the facts of military life to him. I would have taken the civilian's information and up channeled the incident of interfering in my military duties and had the CO or civilian personnel handle it. Remember sometimes the most powerful weapon you have is the pen. Just make sure you have the facts right.
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Thank the Lord that I have retired. I was in Alaska 3 years ago eating breakfast inside the dining facility in civilian clothes and a PFC politely asked me to remove my ball cap indoors
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1SG Jeffrey Mullett
Was that a good or a bad thing...as a Veteran, you should know the regulations regarding use of government facilities. You are required to remove your hat indoors, whether you are in uniform or not. It will include you, if you use a facility as a retiree, some DEFACs allow that, some don't.
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1SG Jeffrey Mullett
Although, it wasn't specifically stated, the Soldier was already under Court Martial. I doubt adding to it will make a bit of difference to him. Judging by his attitude, I doubt he is innocent.
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WOW! Just wow! I may or may not witness soldiers being corrected and their feelings hurt on a daily basis. If it was me I would have had a difficult time telling the civilian to shut her pie hole. Evidently she has forgotten our job is to support the mission not interfere. I look forward to retiring in 10 years, if I don't lose my mind first. I can understand the exodus of seasoned personnel that's for sure. We have somebody headed for the school house to be a DI. We are buying him a bag of lolly pops for his new recruits because after all they need a lolly and a pat on the head before they get tucked into bed. I went through basic and AIT 30 plus years ago the way it is now, I am fairly certain I could make it again no problem.
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Nothing says you can't tell the civilian (retired or vet) to mind his dang business! When you're within the scope of your duties to discipline a Soldier don't let anyone take that away from you.
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1SG Jeffrey Mullett
In the interest of not disrupting a working environment, the correction can be moved to a less populated area...however, I would have told the civilian that we are employed by the US military, and are subject to UCMJ regardless of Civilian or Military status. If she came up to me in a public venue and said that, I would have informed her that we would be continuing the discussion with her supervisor. If she was polite about it, I would have attempted to move our exchange to a more private area.
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I find it interesting most of these comments center on the low hanging fruit - disrespect from a SM awaiting court martial.....but I think the real question is how do you deal with an idiot civilian, former military? (I can see why). who seems to lack the understanding of why they have a job (support the war fighter perhaps?). 8 years as enlisted, 22 as an officer and now 8 years as a DoD civilian employee, I would say this....you handled the SM situation correctly...walk away and cool away. The civilian? That depends on what their job is. I would determine who the supervisor was and, with a little tact, "state my case" for the justifiable disruption in the aggreaved civilians work place, apologize then reminder her why she has a job. V/r and still serving ...MAJ (R) Joe Sitler
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I'd probably excuse myself to first speak in private with the civilian and let the person know that they chose to work on a military institution and being prior service, should know how a military base is run. Than say if you want to continue the conversation, we can with superiors later but for now I'm going back to handle this soldier the way that it is done in the military.
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Just a lowly E5 here but in my opinion an E6 shouldn't feel the need to uniform check anybody, unless it happens to be a member of his squad or someone else under his direct chain of command (detail, escort, or something like that.)
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Written him up and given a statement to his CO. Article 15 sounds appropriate!
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and THIS is why I am not in favor of requiring military service of all young people. If we have these discipline problems with an all-volunteer force, imagine how broken it would be with a force ten times as big who did not elect to be there....
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Taken the individual to the stockade, trial in absentia, additional charges for insubordination.
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This is why we should be allowed to just open handed smack someone. Once a day or something. But I bet if you smacked this kid upside the head you would have his attention lol
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Your comment doesn't say whether the Soldier was the one BEING Court-martialed, however, I think it is safe to assume he was. To that end, I wouldn't think it too much of a stretch to understand why the Soldier was being court martialed. It didn't do you any good to get upset with him, since I suspect he didn't give a damn what you thought. He was probably enjoying the fact that he got you riled up.
I may have looked him in the eye, and laughed, telling him, he wasn't worth it. Or, ask him if he felt like he needed psychological assistance.
In regard to the civilian, I would have politely addressed her and told her it was none of her business, and if we were being too loud we would move to a more private location. If she had a problem with how I was handling the Soldier, I would return later and discuss it with her in private, or with her supervisor.
I would document the entire episode and add additional counseling to the Soldier's record.
I may have looked him in the eye, and laughed, telling him, he wasn't worth it. Or, ask him if he felt like he needed psychological assistance.
In regard to the civilian, I would have politely addressed her and told her it was none of her business, and if we were being too loud we would move to a more private location. If she had a problem with how I was handling the Soldier, I would return later and discuss it with her in private, or with her supervisor.
I would document the entire episode and add additional counseling to the Soldier's record.
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Back in my day, I would have start reading hi his rights, and pressed more charges. I would have told the civilian to get bent, this was a military matter. However times have changed
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In the most professional way possible I would have told the civilian to please mind their own business and allow you to do your military duty. I cannot speak for today's military but in my days in the military that individual would have been escorted to a private area for some "counseling"
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You can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken Shit. Corrective action and counseling only works when someone is receptive. Being that the soldier was there for a CM, don't worry about winning that small battle of authority. He is going to lose the war in a very big way.
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Depends on if this SM is "salvageable" or not. If so, then it's time to stop worrying about him failing to properly cow tow and start providing some of that "Direction, Motivation, and Purpose" we've heard so much about. If not, then it's time to start the separation process for a General Discharge.
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