Posted on Oct 23, 2014
Do you believe that your PTS (PTSD) symptoms can be found in your family members? It is called secondary PTS.
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Not contagious in the literal sense, but rather secondary PTS. They have been doing a much better job teaching us to identify the signs and symptoms of PTS in the military, but in my opinion they do not explain the effect that PTS has on our loved ones.
Symptom example: Startle response.
You are doing everything in your power to keep noise to a minimum so you don't find yourself clinging to the ceiling. Suddenly, the kids accidentally drop something and BOOM! That demon rises up and takes control. Even though you calm down and apologize, you plant that seed in those around you. Before long, even if you manage not to react, the kids may. They flinch and panic because they expect your reaction. We have now conditioned others to feel what we feel.
So many arguments happen in the family because of the lack of understanding that our symptoms can effect our loved ones. Don't waste your time pointing fingers. YOU might be Rambo and think you can deal with it on your own. Your family may not have that same iron constitution. If you don't want to get help for yourself, get help for their sake. One Team One Fight applies to family even more than the branch you faithfully serve.
This is an example from my life before I got help from the VA. Please share your opinions for the benefit of the community. God bless. Uncle Mark
Symptom example: Startle response.
You are doing everything in your power to keep noise to a minimum so you don't find yourself clinging to the ceiling. Suddenly, the kids accidentally drop something and BOOM! That demon rises up and takes control. Even though you calm down and apologize, you plant that seed in those around you. Before long, even if you manage not to react, the kids may. They flinch and panic because they expect your reaction. We have now conditioned others to feel what we feel.
So many arguments happen in the family because of the lack of understanding that our symptoms can effect our loved ones. Don't waste your time pointing fingers. YOU might be Rambo and think you can deal with it on your own. Your family may not have that same iron constitution. If you don't want to get help for yourself, get help for their sake. One Team One Fight applies to family even more than the branch you faithfully serve.
This is an example from my life before I got help from the VA. Please share your opinions for the benefit of the community. God bless. Uncle Mark
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It is not contagious, however I believe it is transferable.
CH (CPT) Heather Davis and I have discussed this a few few times and I believe its often referred to as trans or inter-generational PTSD. The second hand exposure to the original survivor creates a PTSD of its own. Childhood trauma, sexual violence, domestic abuse, etc.
There have also been studies that PTSD affects people on an epigenetic level (yeah $5 word, look it up) that can cause some residual behavior patterns to be passed on to your children.
If you think you have it, if you find your family walking on eggshells around you, talk to someone, get help.
CH (CPT) Heather Davis and I have discussed this a few few times and I believe its often referred to as trans or inter-generational PTSD. The second hand exposure to the original survivor creates a PTSD of its own. Childhood trauma, sexual violence, domestic abuse, etc.
There have also been studies that PTSD affects people on an epigenetic level (yeah $5 word, look it up) that can cause some residual behavior patterns to be passed on to your children.
If you think you have it, if you find your family walking on eggshells around you, talk to someone, get help.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
SFC Mark Merino https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/childhood-trauma-and-dysfuctional-family-patterns-are-a-vital-factor-in-ptsd
This is a conversation on how early childhood can make someone susceptible.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/i-just-recently-saw-sma-chandler-s-ptsd-commercial-where-he-admitted-to-having-ptsd-and-needing-to-seek-help
And this is one where CPT Davis goes into some detail a little later in the response section.
I don't think you are going to get a clean thread to join because the "transference" isn't the basis of this thread or any of the others and many of the answers have nothing to do with it.
This is a conversation on how early childhood can make someone susceptible.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/i-just-recently-saw-sma-chandler-s-ptsd-commercial-where-he-admitted-to-having-ptsd-and-needing-to-seek-help
And this is one where CPT Davis goes into some detail a little later in the response section.
I don't think you are going to get a clean thread to join because the "transference" isn't the basis of this thread or any of the others and many of the answers have nothing to do with it.
Childhood trauma and dysfuctional family patterns are a vital factor in PTSD. | RallyPoint
When I was deployed, I was impacted by the stress and childhood trauma caused repressed memories to surface. If you are having vivid old memories surfacing, go get counseling.
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SFC Mark Merino
Another great example of why some may be affected by PTS and some may not, even though they were present during the exact same traumatic event. There is a flip side to this as well. Some people who had miserable childhood experiences have been able to handle events better than some who may have led sheltered lives. We are all unique creatures and have different strengths and "weaknesses."
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CW2 Joseph Evans
Careful waxing poetic there SFC Mark Merino. There are some of us that are less inclined to believe in the direct hand of God in the events that shape our lives and more in our personal spiritual needs that guides to find those events that make us who we are. Regardless of our faith in God, our belief in ourselves, or in the science that believes we are the living embodiment of the stardust from which we are made, we represent diversity designed to promote our survival as a race.
Whether it is the will of God or epigenitic information passed from father to son that promotes survival traits and reactions, we are communal and dependent on each other for survival. Acceptance, not tolerance mind you (I really hate that word), but acceptance of our brothers and sisters who stand to our left and right ready to defend the virtues of humanity. And that includes accepting their journey.
Whether it is the will of God or epigenitic information passed from father to son that promotes survival traits and reactions, we are communal and dependent on each other for survival. Acceptance, not tolerance mind you (I really hate that word), but acceptance of our brothers and sisters who stand to our left and right ready to defend the virtues of humanity. And that includes accepting their journey.
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Been down this road & yes I agree. Our problem becomes our family & loved ones problem because of the triggers we have.
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I don't think that the disorder itself is necessarily contagious. For one thing PTSD is far more than just a simple Pavlovian response. It happens to be a full on hormonal reaction to a trigger. Even a song or smell can cause one to go into the response reaction. When this occurs then one's brain and body begin to pump the hormones that were being used when the event that caused the disorder occurred. For example a person smells cinnamon and for some reason his or her subconscious correlates that with their traumatic event then they start having a large amount of adrenaline pumping through their body. Needless to say this makes it very difficult to control due to it being a physiological response and not just a psychological one.
As for one's family, I don't believe that it is likely to cause trauma (though it is definitely possible) that will cause a loved one to get PTSD.
Let me add though, I am not a doctor or psychologist. I am posting this information from my own recollection of idle reading.
As for one's family, I don't believe that it is likely to cause trauma (though it is definitely possible) that will cause a loved one to get PTSD.
Let me add though, I am not a doctor or psychologist. I am posting this information from my own recollection of idle reading.
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SSG David Shifflett
Interesting, I know the time day, a word and a smell will trigger bad feeling for me at times. Hearing tornado siren will send me into another world. Cold War thing.
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without sounding too critical or expressing my disdain for this topic, I will give a short synopsis of my story; and you can be the judge and jury. When I came back from Afghanistan I openly admitted that I suffered so badly and that I was shrouded in what was then PTSD, and now its just PTS.
My ex wife didn't know how to handle any of my symptoms, compiled on top of all of the surgeries that I was going through. I did the opposite when it came to being on top of my game, I chose to dive into alcohol head first... One thing that sticks out, which bothered her the most is that I literally banned all barbecuing, indoor meats being cooked, just anything that smelled like searing flesh. Long story short, whatever demons I faced on a daily basis... my ex added fuel to the
My ex wife didn't know how to handle any of my symptoms, compiled on top of all of the surgeries that I was going through. I did the opposite when it came to being on top of my game, I chose to dive into alcohol head first... One thing that sticks out, which bothered her the most is that I literally banned all barbecuing, indoor meats being cooked, just anything that smelled like searing flesh. Long story short, whatever demons I faced on a daily basis... my ex added fuel to the
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SFC Mark Merino
Your message got cut off just after it pulled me right in. I am anxious to read the rest of it, brother.
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SSG Buddy Kemper
Hey SFC Frain. Thanks for sharing your story. And I hope you are doing good now. If ya want could you talk about things that help you cope and get through? I've been struggling off and off for a while...and battled drinking for years. We've lost two battle buddies in as many years, one to suicide. I'm in a good place now and taking it a day at a time, but want to also hear what works for you. If you don't mind. I Connect requested you and you can message me if you prefer. God bless and hooah. -Kemp
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PV2 Violet Case
I have PTSD also, I can not keep in a relationship because of it. I dont go to drinking because my x was an alcoholic and I never thought the answers would be found in the bottom of a bottle or glass. But they do have me pretty medicated which is not good either. It is hard to go to the VA and say I need help when soldiers are proud and dont like to be seen crying. But Brother it is ok to seek help. You can refuse meds as I am getting whinned from some of mine. But don't give up momma always said where there is a will there is a way. So maybe your wife can buy precooked meats at a deli would that help?
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SFC Keith Frain
Good evening gentleman...Did either of you guys see my post about the Purple Heart and PTSD? You might want to read it.
As far as getting deeper in my life...as frightful as it is to have my life out there, if it can help even one of our Saints. Sure thing.
Leaving off from Afghanistan, and a marked game changer in my psychi, (the actual breaking point of what I felt was my very soul leaving me) I started to go crazy with volunteering for everything outside of the wire, although it was my job to be out there anyway...I wanted to go deeper, and see more. One of my Officer buddies asked me one day if I had a death wish? I thought I did, but I also thought that I was invincible, hell, I spoke the language, eat, slept and met with the Afghans every day. (Believe it or not...this was SPECIFICALLY my job, to bridge the gap of mistrust between the coalition and the Afghans (on our side).
To spend as much time gathering information about the ANCOP, ANA, etc. If we had to travel through the outskirts, meet the people, talk to them too...So you see, part of my feeling bullet proof was because I HAD to be stellar and believable, don't show any fear or they won't trust me.
More people died, nothing I could do about it, both on our side, and the Afghans...marching orders never stopped, but I did the cardinal sin (supposedly) I decided to speak to the Chaplain about the nightmares, not sleeping, seeing my dead friends...etc. He turned my ass into Division HQ, and they sent a Psychiatrist to our FOB...this F'n guy actually said to me, "This better be real SFC Frain, you made me leave BAF for this place....al the while he was shaking me hand." I knew that I didn't want any part of this, so I lied, lied, and lied some more. I wasn't leaving my Soldiers, friends, and especially flying back with his ass. So they gave me a cocktail of pills.
To add fuel to the fire, 1 week before I am to go home, my wife tells me that she is scared, and that she too has noticed a big change in my persona. She asked if I was going to get help, of course I said yes...then she said one more thing. She said that she understood now that her and I are not the Soul-Mates that she thought we were; that she wasn't sure where this would leave us when I came home. To be continued. So you see, again, I am leaving out the things that happened in Iraq, and Afghanistan that caused my downfall (PTSD)...those are our stories, it is what happened once I came back where the real battle started. I will write some more later...it takes a lot out of me emotionally...thanks guys.
As far as getting deeper in my life...as frightful as it is to have my life out there, if it can help even one of our Saints. Sure thing.
Leaving off from Afghanistan, and a marked game changer in my psychi, (the actual breaking point of what I felt was my very soul leaving me) I started to go crazy with volunteering for everything outside of the wire, although it was my job to be out there anyway...I wanted to go deeper, and see more. One of my Officer buddies asked me one day if I had a death wish? I thought I did, but I also thought that I was invincible, hell, I spoke the language, eat, slept and met with the Afghans every day. (Believe it or not...this was SPECIFICALLY my job, to bridge the gap of mistrust between the coalition and the Afghans (on our side).
To spend as much time gathering information about the ANCOP, ANA, etc. If we had to travel through the outskirts, meet the people, talk to them too...So you see, part of my feeling bullet proof was because I HAD to be stellar and believable, don't show any fear or they won't trust me.
More people died, nothing I could do about it, both on our side, and the Afghans...marching orders never stopped, but I did the cardinal sin (supposedly) I decided to speak to the Chaplain about the nightmares, not sleeping, seeing my dead friends...etc. He turned my ass into Division HQ, and they sent a Psychiatrist to our FOB...this F'n guy actually said to me, "This better be real SFC Frain, you made me leave BAF for this place....al the while he was shaking me hand." I knew that I didn't want any part of this, so I lied, lied, and lied some more. I wasn't leaving my Soldiers, friends, and especially flying back with his ass. So they gave me a cocktail of pills.
To add fuel to the fire, 1 week before I am to go home, my wife tells me that she is scared, and that she too has noticed a big change in my persona. She asked if I was going to get help, of course I said yes...then she said one more thing. She said that she understood now that her and I are not the Soul-Mates that she thought we were; that she wasn't sure where this would leave us when I came home. To be continued. So you see, again, I am leaving out the things that happened in Iraq, and Afghanistan that caused my downfall (PTSD)...those are our stories, it is what happened once I came back where the real battle started. I will write some more later...it takes a lot out of me emotionally...thanks guys.
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I'm not sure how this fits with the subject, perhaps a wiser mind than my own can make something of it. The other day I went to a facility to have an MRI done. Being a relatively beautiful day, I decided to ride my dresser to the clinic, complete with my Patriot Guard Riders flag and windshield banner. Entering the lobby, my attention immediately centered at the back of the room. A young man with a service dog and sand pattern camo pants sitting with his back to the wall and a thousand yard stare. I nodded hello and went to the window to sign in. While I was finishing up, the service dog began to get a bit restless. He was fidgeting and nudging his masters hand but not getting much response. As a PGR rider, I carry a pocket full of cards thanking Vets for their service from East Texas PGR. They're enclosed in a small glassine envelope with an embroidered star which is salvaged from American flags set to be retired. As I walked up to the man, I held one out to him. I told him quietly, "I don't want to intrude, I'll sit a few chairs over. I just want you to know you aren't alone." He nodded as he took the packet and I moved over and sat down. After a few moments he looked down and read the card, then seemed to notice the dog's unease and began petting him. The dog calmed down and settled at his feet. We sat in silence for about ten minutes when I was called in. As I got up to leave he spoke to me; "Thanks, brother. That's just what I needed, to know that someone cared without demanding stories and explanations." I told him "It was my privilege. There's lots of us who care, but sometimes you have to let us know what you need." We shook hands and parted. He was gone when I came back out, but the nurse told me he went in to his physical therapy with a smile on his face. I'm not claiming any credit for anything. I do hope I helped even if it's just a little. I would like to tell those who are dealing with this problem one thing; There's a lot of us who care. We want to help any way we can. How much we can help is determined by you. Just remember, you are not alone......"
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I do not have PTSD, but I care about those who do and wish to educate myself so that I can help them. Like most responders to this topic, I have never heard of it being contagious and, at first blush, wonder if secondary PTS is merely another way of describing the deleterious effects that others suffer living with someone suffering from PTSD. Then again...
Panic is contagious. The instinct of the herd or flock to follow the lead of a member that begins to flee is well known and unquestioned. Such instincts exist in humans as well. Thus, wouldn't it be possible for a child to learn a PTSD-like response to sudden noises through conditioning by seeing a parent's reaction? Even adults might be susceptible if repeatedly exposed to the reactions of someone suffering from PTSD? Interesting.
Thank you for raising this issue. It bears more discussion and investigation.
Panic is contagious. The instinct of the herd or flock to follow the lead of a member that begins to flee is well known and unquestioned. Such instincts exist in humans as well. Thus, wouldn't it be possible for a child to learn a PTSD-like response to sudden noises through conditioning by seeing a parent's reaction? Even adults might be susceptible if repeatedly exposed to the reactions of someone suffering from PTSD? Interesting.
Thank you for raising this issue. It bears more discussion and investigation.
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I don't think it is contagious like a cold or chicken pox....or ebola. BUT, PTSD is not a condition that has a single victim. There is a primary victim, the individual that has to live with the nightmares, the startle reflexes, the paranoia....all the symptoms that go along with it. Then there is a HOST of secondary victims: family, friends, co-workers.... They may or may not know or understand why you act/react the way you do, the terrible nightmares that end in screems, sobs, or sweats... not knowingly create a situation that will "set you off".... I would suspect that in some cases, a spouse could develope their own case of PTSD that is a pure reaction to YOUR PTSD. They wake up to your scream in much the same way you do, they react to your sobs, they live with your paranoia and develope some themselves.... PTSD is a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. Daily life living with someone that has PTSD could meet this criteria.
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I am not a therapist but no it is not contagious here is the definition Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that's triggered by a terrifying event — either experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety, as well as uncontrollable thoughts about the event.
This definition alone makes it non contagious
This definition alone makes it non contagious
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SFC Mark Merino
I concur, a literal definition might have been a better way to go. I wanted to share my experiences of PTS on family members to show that we are all living with that demon together. If we can show that our little ones are having to face it, it may be easier to convince the servicemember to get help for their sake.
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SSG William Patton
SFC Merino and MSG, I agree with both of you. PTSD can and does affect the family dynamic if untreated. For the well being of the family, especially children, it is imperative that those who suffer get help.
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I luckily have a wife that is pretty understanding when it comes to my mood swings, even though sometimes I will say I do not know how she does it.
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Let me try to share something here that may or may not apply.
Back in the early 70s I knew something was wrong, just didn't know quite what. The VA considered it a Nervous disorder (my claim which was denied) at the time and their help was worse than no help at all, almost leading to my death. I spent some time as an out patient and also went to the out reach vet centers that were brand new. I fled the VA for a number of scary reasons and eventually had to get away from the Vet Center also.
The early Vet Centers were run by poorly trained civilian case workers that were usually pissing themselves from the stories they heard and the daily activities going on (suicide by Cop, drug and alcohol use, armed vets, domestic problems)
At the time I went because I thought that I could help others , because the "helpers" were so inept. I myself was probably full tilt crazy at the time but didn't recognize it. I went to many group meetings and despite the fact that almost all of my time in RVN was in the field in combat, met a lot of guys with absolutely horrifying experiences (regaining consciousness stacked in the middle of a boat load of the dead)
I did my best to help the staff and the Vets see some of the problems that the vets were hiding from themselves, but it all became too much and my problems, due to being able to empathize with theirs became worse. I lived near by and when the Center closed for the night they would dump all of these still cranked up vets out on the street. I took them all home to have a beer and decompress a bit.
I had to get away from all of that for the sake of my own sanity and eventually found a good psychologist, and on my own Nickel, worked it out on my own. It was decades before the VA offered me any real help and that came about by my old Tank crewmen badgering me to get back to the VA. The difference then and now is like night and day. If you even think you need help, go get it. They have learned a lot from us RVN vets. If you need to talk, message me, or another old vet, we really have been there and know what it's like.
Back in the early 70s I knew something was wrong, just didn't know quite what. The VA considered it a Nervous disorder (my claim which was denied) at the time and their help was worse than no help at all, almost leading to my death. I spent some time as an out patient and also went to the out reach vet centers that were brand new. I fled the VA for a number of scary reasons and eventually had to get away from the Vet Center also.
The early Vet Centers were run by poorly trained civilian case workers that were usually pissing themselves from the stories they heard and the daily activities going on (suicide by Cop, drug and alcohol use, armed vets, domestic problems)
At the time I went because I thought that I could help others , because the "helpers" were so inept. I myself was probably full tilt crazy at the time but didn't recognize it. I went to many group meetings and despite the fact that almost all of my time in RVN was in the field in combat, met a lot of guys with absolutely horrifying experiences (regaining consciousness stacked in the middle of a boat load of the dead)
I did my best to help the staff and the Vets see some of the problems that the vets were hiding from themselves, but it all became too much and my problems, due to being able to empathize with theirs became worse. I lived near by and when the Center closed for the night they would dump all of these still cranked up vets out on the street. I took them all home to have a beer and decompress a bit.
I had to get away from all of that for the sake of my own sanity and eventually found a good psychologist, and on my own Nickel, worked it out on my own. It was decades before the VA offered me any real help and that came about by my old Tank crewmen badgering me to get back to the VA. The difference then and now is like night and day. If you even think you need help, go get it. They have learned a lot from us RVN vets. If you need to talk, message me, or another old vet, we really have been there and know what it's like.
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SFC Mark Merino
Cpl Dennis F. thank you for your service and Welcome Home! I cant say it enough that so many of us joined the military out of respect for the Vietnam veterans. So many of us owe our lives from what groundwork has been laid by all of you, like you stated. There wasn't even a DSM (psychology bible) diagnosis of PTSD until 1980. My first platoon sergeant was a Vietnam vet who taught me things that have yet to get into any field manual! We are drawn to each other like moths to a flame. Just being in the same room as veterans can ease our anxiety. The vet centers have come a long way since their inception. The one I went to in Phoenix had nothing but combat veterans ranging from Korea to Afghanistan. The residential PTSD program the VA has in Menlo Park has patients split down the middle: Vietnam 50% and Gulf War to present 50% (at least when I went).
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PV2 Abbott Shaull
I feel you Cpl Dennis Fresch in 1989, I got told I had Depression and Anxiety. Ever time I go so see Mental Health it always led back to this Depression, even though I keep telling them tell tale signs of PTSD which from my family Doctor, VA Provider, and to my Mental Health Coach keep ignoring, wife and family don't want to understand. Even since in August that we found out that I also have Aperger's, and ADHD to go with the 'Depression' and Anxiety both of them explain lot of things. Yet, they don't explain lot of the things that PTSD explains more than Depression, but then again I am not the Doctor, just person going through the fucking shit, trying to look for answer, and to get people to understand.
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