Posted on Aug 19, 2022
Do you think we should get rid of the Bronze Star for Meritorious Service in theater?
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I'm sure many of us have heard stories of desk jockies and people who never left the wire getting a BSM without V Device over Troops that saw action and were lucky to get an ARCOM if that.
What if instead of allowing a BSM for meritorious acts inside the wire we limit it to Valor and Meritorious acts that are proven outside the wire. If the SM involved was in legitimate danger or on patrols in addition to their other responsibilities that might warrant such an award.
If they were not, then authorize an MSM with C Device to note that they got it while in theater.
I've even heard leaders describe a BSM without V as just an MSM awarded in theater.
So what do you think? Is it time to consider awarding MSM's with C Devices in the next conflict instead of handing out BSM to E7's and up?
The MSM already warrants the R Device and the ARCOM warrants the C Device as well, is it such a stretch?
What if instead of allowing a BSM for meritorious acts inside the wire we limit it to Valor and Meritorious acts that are proven outside the wire. If the SM involved was in legitimate danger or on patrols in addition to their other responsibilities that might warrant such an award.
If they were not, then authorize an MSM with C Device to note that they got it while in theater.
I've even heard leaders describe a BSM without V as just an MSM awarded in theater.
So what do you think? Is it time to consider awarding MSM's with C Devices in the next conflict instead of handing out BSM to E7's and up?
The MSM already warrants the R Device and the ARCOM warrants the C Device as well, is it such a stretch?
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Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 16
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I have never felt that this is a zero sum world. When someone else gets an award, I say good for them and congratulate them. My contributions and accomplishment are not diminished by the recognition of others. What I have or have not done will not appear on my tombstone, nor will theirs.
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SPC (Join to see)
That's a fair way of looking at it, and definitely good to congratulate someone for being recognized.
I think awards don't really belong to us, or to the officer awarding them, or to the Army for that matter. I think they belong to our families, our grandchildren, and so on. It's not so much for us that it has value it's more so that the next generation has something to view and say, "That was my granddad".
Sure, we might be proud of an award that we earned but they will look at it differently than we do. That's how I view them anyway.
I think awards don't really belong to us, or to the officer awarding them, or to the Army for that matter. I think they belong to our families, our grandchildren, and so on. It's not so much for us that it has value it's more so that the next generation has something to view and say, "That was my granddad".
Sure, we might be proud of an award that we earned but they will look at it differently than we do. That's how I view them anyway.
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There's two ways to get a BSM - one for meritorious service. One for valorous service. E7 and up on staff weren't getting V's. If they did, someone lied if someone got a V but "rode a desk."
"(a) Criteria. The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order 9419, February 4, 1944 (superseded by E.O. 11046, August 24, 1962 and amended by 10 U.S.C. 1133). It is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after December 7, 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. Per 10 U.S.C. 1133, award of the Bronze Star Medal is limited to members of the Armed Forces of the United States who receive imminent danger pay."
It says "heroic OR meritorious achievement or service..." The V is for "heroic." If someone has a BSM with no "V" it was for meritorious achievement.
"(a) Criteria. The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order 9419, February 4, 1944 (superseded by E.O. 11046, August 24, 1962 and amended by 10 U.S.C. 1133). It is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after December 7, 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. Per 10 U.S.C. 1133, award of the Bronze Star Medal is limited to members of the Armed Forces of the United States who receive imminent danger pay."
It says "heroic OR meritorious achievement or service..." The V is for "heroic." If someone has a BSM with no "V" it was for meritorious achievement.
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
SPC (Join to see) - Why? No "desk jockey" is getting a BSM with a "V". Why does it matter there's a BSM for meritorious service?
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SPC (Join to see)
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - It's more an argument of recognizing those who risked life and limb not being recognized over those who were of a certain rank in a FOB. I'm a desk Soldier, if I make E7 or E8 down the line and do my job in the next war I'm not of the opinion I should receive a BSM just because I'm technically in theater when there's line troops getting blown up that have had their ARCOM's downgraded. Or when people in S1 say things like, "E5's and E6's don't get MSM's and E3's and E4's don't get ARCOM's that's just the way it is". In violation of the actual verbiage in the reg.
However I do contend that CPT (Join to see) has a point about artificial limits, and rather than redefining the criteria for awards, we should work on awarding awards appropriately for merit regardless of rank which we have to admit is a cultural issue in the Army. Is it every unit? No. Are there good officers and NCO's out there pushing to give appropriate awards to those who have earned them? Absolutely. Are there ones out there doing it wrong? Yes. Is there much we can do about it? That's tough to say, it's hard for any one of us to impact the force as a whole beyond doing what we believe is right and having open discussions about it. Ultimately it's up to the approval authority and not every approval authority thinks the same way or operates on the same guidance or lessons learned.
However I do contend that CPT (Join to see) has a point about artificial limits, and rather than redefining the criteria for awards, we should work on awarding awards appropriately for merit regardless of rank which we have to admit is a cultural issue in the Army. Is it every unit? No. Are there good officers and NCO's out there pushing to give appropriate awards to those who have earned them? Absolutely. Are there ones out there doing it wrong? Yes. Is there much we can do about it? That's tough to say, it's hard for any one of us to impact the force as a whole beyond doing what we believe is right and having open discussions about it. Ultimately it's up to the approval authority and not every approval authority thinks the same way or operates on the same guidance or lessons learned.
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
SPC (Join to see) - A BSM with a "V" means someone risked their life. A BSM without any device is just for meritorious service. There's a big difference between the two.
During my first two deployments, did a lot of SFC and above get a BSM for service for the EOT award? Sure. But there were a few below those ranks that did get a BSM for service- and there were BSMs with V's and ONLY the guys in the line companies got those. NO ONE on staff in either of my deployments got a BSM or anything with a V because they didn't do anything valorous.
If you have people in S1 saying the things you said - like "E5s and E6s don't get MSMs" just ignore them. THEY don't approve or deny awards. They process them. That's it. If they are kicking back awards based on rank, take that shit up to IG. Because they aren't allowed to do that.
I don't think there needs to be a change in the awards. There needs to be a change in culture of units that are doing the wrong thing in how they submit and approve awards.
During my first two deployments, did a lot of SFC and above get a BSM for service for the EOT award? Sure. But there were a few below those ranks that did get a BSM for service- and there were BSMs with V's and ONLY the guys in the line companies got those. NO ONE on staff in either of my deployments got a BSM or anything with a V because they didn't do anything valorous.
If you have people in S1 saying the things you said - like "E5s and E6s don't get MSMs" just ignore them. THEY don't approve or deny awards. They process them. That's it. If they are kicking back awards based on rank, take that shit up to IG. Because they aren't allowed to do that.
I don't think there needs to be a change in the awards. There needs to be a change in culture of units that are doing the wrong thing in how they submit and approve awards.
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CSM William Everroad
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - Please don't take that to IG, give your CSM a chance to do their job.
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What About A Cook Who Stop’s A Suicide Bomber In The Chow Hall ?
Or A Truck Driver Who Saves The Life Of A Mechanic Who Gets Trapped Under A Hummer That Feel Off A Jack stand During An RPG Attack ?
Both Of Those And Many Other Act’s Of Valor Have Happened Inside The Wire.
All Act’s Of Valor In Combat Zones Should Get Equal Award’s Outside The Wire Or Inside They Are All In Danger.
Yes There Are Many Award’s Given For The Wrong Reasons.
I Know Of A Captain Who Got A Purple Heart For Cutting His Arm On A Nail In The TOC During A Mortar Attack
Or A Truck Driver Who Saves The Life Of A Mechanic Who Gets Trapped Under A Hummer That Feel Off A Jack stand During An RPG Attack ?
Both Of Those And Many Other Act’s Of Valor Have Happened Inside The Wire.
All Act’s Of Valor In Combat Zones Should Get Equal Award’s Outside The Wire Or Inside They Are All In Danger.
Yes There Are Many Award’s Given For The Wrong Reasons.
I Know Of A Captain Who Got A Purple Heart For Cutting His Arm On A Nail In The TOC During A Mortar Attack
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CPT (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - Wel............ I missed getting the "C" device. A committee simply made up the device and the conditions and it's basically anyone that gets a combat patch probably would get a C device attached to any award they got.
I guess it basically means one can show they got their ARCOM down range verses a PCS award.
I guess it basically means one can show they got their ARCOM down range verses a PCS award.
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SPC (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) - Pretty much, that was my understanding. For example my brother was in Afghanistan for most of his tour. Got a C on his ARCOM. Where as my tour because I wasn't needed forward, I stayed in Kuwait. Thus not C for me. Makes sense, one is exposed to danger and the other is not.
I find the R device interesting in that it is pretty much for drone users and other remote operations.
I find the R device interesting in that it is pretty much for drone users and other remote operations.
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SPC James Neidig
SPC (Join to see)
Well Said ! I Met A Few Marines And Soldiers Who Were Badge And Medal Chaser’s, But The Vast Majority Were Happy To Get Whatever They Were Awarded , Especially If It Gave Them Promotion Points,
Award’s Not Only Belong To Future Generation’s But Also To Our Past Generation’s By Carrying On A Legacy Of Honor And Bravery !
Well Said ! I Met A Few Marines And Soldiers Who Were Badge And Medal Chaser’s, But The Vast Majority Were Happy To Get Whatever They Were Awarded , Especially If It Gave Them Promotion Points,
Award’s Not Only Belong To Future Generation’s But Also To Our Past Generation’s By Carrying On A Legacy Of Honor And Bravery !
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SSG Bill McCoy
SPC (Join to see) - I'd forgotten all about the Soldier's Medal and Navy/Marine equivelent; great point. Also, very good point of history and successive generations!
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