Posted on Apr 6, 2015
Does this survey matter? "AP Exclusive: Special ops troops doubt women can do the job."
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This is interesting, but does it matter?
I suspect every change our Army has ever undertaken was not met with open arms? There have been many. Change is not easy, but should doubt within the special operations ranks, change the decisions within DOD?
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ff32e0a3426a4f379a4f4d503cfe881d/ap-exclusive-special-ops-troops-doubt-women-can-do-job
I suspect every change our Army has ever undertaken was not met with open arms? There have been many. Change is not easy, but should doubt within the special operations ranks, change the decisions within DOD?
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ff32e0a3426a4f379a4f4d503cfe881d/ap-exclusive-special-ops-troops-doubt-women-can-do-job
Posted in these groups: 
Women in the Military
Special Operations
Women in the Military Special Operations
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 10
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The beards will be EPIC!!!
If the standards remain the same and they meet those standards, it doesn't really matter what the surveys say. The real issue will be the acceptance by their team members, if the team doesn't accept the female operator they will just get rid of/move her, they do the same thing for males that don't fit.
If the standards remain the same and they meet those standards, it doesn't really matter what the surveys say. The real issue will be the acceptance by their team members, if the team doesn't accept the female operator they will just get rid of/move her, they do the same thing for males that don't fit.
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Lets put or math hats on for a minute.
About 68,800 people serve in the command, including 3,000 civilians. The main survey went to about 18,000 people who are in positions closed to women, and the response was about 50 percent. The high response rate, officials said, reflects the wide interest in the subject.
50% of 18,000 is 9,000. So that 9K respondents equals roughly 13% of the whole.
It doesn't state what of that 13% believes that woman cannot do the job, but lets assume that it is ALL of them (not likely) that is still only 13%.
COL Charles Williams, and this is why I hate statistics, you can make it say whatever you want, just have to know how to work the data.
About 68,800 people serve in the command, including 3,000 civilians. The main survey went to about 18,000 people who are in positions closed to women, and the response was about 50 percent. The high response rate, officials said, reflects the wide interest in the subject.
50% of 18,000 is 9,000. So that 9K respondents equals roughly 13% of the whole.
It doesn't state what of that 13% believes that woman cannot do the job, but lets assume that it is ALL of them (not likely) that is still only 13%.
COL Charles Williams, and this is why I hate statistics, you can make it say whatever you want, just have to know how to work the data.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
Lt Col (Join to see), of course (I have done college statistics classes). Unlike peer reviewed statistics, they haven't shown how the sample was selected, if the responses to the sample actually make it a true sample of the larger group (ex. it was mostly all xyz group that responded and it is disproportional to the whole), the bias of the sample on topics of strong personal beliefs (like this) where folks holding a strong belief are more likely to respond then those that don't. etc, etc.
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I had to get my pen and paper out for this one! :-)
First off! This article and results are not surprising at all.
2. I have agreed, as many other females have, that the pentagon should NOT lower the standards for a female. If females want to be treated fairly and equally, then they should meet the same standards as the males. PERIOD.
3. Seriously??? There are concerns about sexual assault rising??? Since I highly doubt that it would be the woman who can not maintain herself and the men would be complaining, I wonder, Can the men NOT hold themselves together?? Do they not have the will power to say NO!?? Can they not be professional?? Look, I didn't say it, the article and MEN did.
4. You see that the women are concerned about the standards being lowered. They don't WANT them lowered and if they can not meet the same standards, then they should NOT be able to fill the positions that are open.
5. It states that MOST women don't want a combat job anyways. That is probably true. I have stated that myself. That's why I think that the number of women that DO WANT the job are going to kick ass! They are going to perform to the same standard that the man would. They will try harder. They will push harder. Those women in the military don't WANT to be seen as "Women" but as SOLDIERS, MARINES, ETC.
First off! This article and results are not surprising at all.
2. I have agreed, as many other females have, that the pentagon should NOT lower the standards for a female. If females want to be treated fairly and equally, then they should meet the same standards as the males. PERIOD.
3. Seriously??? There are concerns about sexual assault rising??? Since I highly doubt that it would be the woman who can not maintain herself and the men would be complaining, I wonder, Can the men NOT hold themselves together?? Do they not have the will power to say NO!?? Can they not be professional?? Look, I didn't say it, the article and MEN did.
4. You see that the women are concerned about the standards being lowered. They don't WANT them lowered and if they can not meet the same standards, then they should NOT be able to fill the positions that are open.
5. It states that MOST women don't want a combat job anyways. That is probably true. I have stated that myself. That's why I think that the number of women that DO WANT the job are going to kick ass! They are going to perform to the same standard that the man would. They will try harder. They will push harder. Those women in the military don't WANT to be seen as "Women" but as SOLDIERS, MARINES, ETC.
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PV2 Violet Case
you said it sister SGT Veronica Fulgham - Blais. I was to disappointed when I trained like I did and then did not get to go out an act just drove truck. Believe it or not they told me tho if I would had to my job would have been the men in front line but I as a driver would have to come with a co-driver with a weapon to bring in ammo and bring back body bags. And they told me the purpose of the metal dog tag was so we could slam the dog teeth in the cracks of the teeth to identify the bodies before bagging because toe tags are lost to often. Now how true they were telling us or not I don't no did not get the chance to find out. Lower standards no way. the sporting store is at the bottom of hill from me and memberships for rifle and bow are there. I love the competition when and if people can go with, I love hearing well anything she'd shot at would be gone. lol
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If anyone should be allowed to have say on this supremely controversial matter I believe it would and should be the special operations service members themselves for they alone know, understand, and live the trials and tribulations of such undertakings. Why do we as a nation make decisions out of an emotional/political desire to see each other in an unrealistic sense of fairness? Women are better than men at some things and men are better than women at others. If we were physiologically equals women and men would have to meet the same BMI standards would they not?
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We are dealing with more than one ideology!
The idea that part of being a man is to protect women. My father and aunt taught me how I should treat a lady. This idea stems from our elders, and I’m sure with good intent. Yet, today it can be seen as sexism. When I was a much younger man opening a door for an approaching lady was considered to be an act of kindness and was the character trait of a gentleman. Today it would seem otherwise depending on viewpoint. When I was a much younger Marine the idea that my Mother, Sister or Wife should be in harms way simply did not compute. Today we see women in uniform that can out run, and out shoot an alarming number of men. Perhaps those two facts do not make for a grand operator, but it’s a fair start. If women can get though all the required training on the exact same standard, as the men are they not qualified?
The idea that women cannot physically, or mentally sustain the riggers of war. It’s not easy to pick up a fallen man in the heat of battle and carry them to safety. Marines (and most likely other branch’s of service) practice the fireman’s carry. Often the area is simply to hot, and rescue has to wait on opportunity. It also can get just a bit nasty to see what used to be your fellow service member in three different parts. But, none of us can know how we will react until that actually occurs. We sign up for it, and then do the best we can. Regardless of gender, if you don’t do well with a paper cut you might want to pick a different line of work.
The idea that we need to say YES to every demand for equality. This has become a more pressing issue with each passing decade. The pressure applied to such issues from our media seems to really get our elected officials spun up. Sometimes I wonder if our elected officials really support what they are saying, or are they just trying to secure the VOTE of a particular demographic for the next election. Regardless, if women want to fight for their country, and they can cut the mustard….I say welcome aboard. There are plenty of men that ring out, and I’m sure some of the women will as well.
The idea that part of being a man is to protect women. My father and aunt taught me how I should treat a lady. This idea stems from our elders, and I’m sure with good intent. Yet, today it can be seen as sexism. When I was a much younger man opening a door for an approaching lady was considered to be an act of kindness and was the character trait of a gentleman. Today it would seem otherwise depending on viewpoint. When I was a much younger Marine the idea that my Mother, Sister or Wife should be in harms way simply did not compute. Today we see women in uniform that can out run, and out shoot an alarming number of men. Perhaps those two facts do not make for a grand operator, but it’s a fair start. If women can get though all the required training on the exact same standard, as the men are they not qualified?
The idea that women cannot physically, or mentally sustain the riggers of war. It’s not easy to pick up a fallen man in the heat of battle and carry them to safety. Marines (and most likely other branch’s of service) practice the fireman’s carry. Often the area is simply to hot, and rescue has to wait on opportunity. It also can get just a bit nasty to see what used to be your fellow service member in three different parts. But, none of us can know how we will react until that actually occurs. We sign up for it, and then do the best we can. Regardless of gender, if you don’t do well with a paper cut you might want to pick a different line of work.
The idea that we need to say YES to every demand for equality. This has become a more pressing issue with each passing decade. The pressure applied to such issues from our media seems to really get our elected officials spun up. Sometimes I wonder if our elected officials really support what they are saying, or are they just trying to secure the VOTE of a particular demographic for the next election. Regardless, if women want to fight for their country, and they can cut the mustard….I say welcome aboard. There are plenty of men that ring out, and I’m sure some of the women will as well.
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PV2 Violet Case
Thank you MSGT Steve Miller, for keeping chivalry alive. No matter if I am in my work grubs or holding a weapon or hammer, men treat me with respect for doors, walk me to house door or if night I say I'm ok will sit in driveway until I enter the house and turn on inside light. But before my health got really bad and ankle during paint gun or lazer tag in those games time to forget the sexes and go for the win. No mercy sorry. lol But later we would go out I would return in my glitter and ryhinestones and fancy nails.
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I'm going to try and be tactful about how I phrase this, but please excuse me if I become overly blunt. The Military is not a Democracy, it's a Dictatorship at all levels.
"Operator Opinion" is irrelevant to the decision itself. Leaders have the option to solicit opinion, but are in no way required to do so. Even if they do gather opinions from lower, they have no obligation to follow it.
To draw a parallel, the Pentagon fought "Gays in the military" for decades. Then DADT came out. Then DADT was revoked. And when it was, the response was "complete non-issue." President Truman integrated Blacks & Whites within the military. "Complete non-issue."
How is women in the military any different? This is a direction from above. Comply with the order, or live with the consequences. Sure, a person can voice concerns, but that doesn't change the obligation to follow the order.
At this point, the decision is made, and until someone can show definitive proof that this is a failed experiment, we need to treat it just like any other order from above.
"Operator Opinion" is irrelevant to the decision itself. Leaders have the option to solicit opinion, but are in no way required to do so. Even if they do gather opinions from lower, they have no obligation to follow it.
To draw a parallel, the Pentagon fought "Gays in the military" for decades. Then DADT came out. Then DADT was revoked. And when it was, the response was "complete non-issue." President Truman integrated Blacks & Whites within the military. "Complete non-issue."
How is women in the military any different? This is a direction from above. Comply with the order, or live with the consequences. Sure, a person can voice concerns, but that doesn't change the obligation to follow the order.
At this point, the decision is made, and until someone can show definitive proof that this is a failed experiment, we need to treat it just like any other order from above.
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Cpl Jeff N.
The military is not a dictatorship it is a hierarchy structure. It is also a voluntary service so no one has to serve under it (another difference from a dictatorship). Since the military is all volunteer they are interested in what the people that volunteer think.
If they were not interested in what they thought they would not send out surveys to see what they think as they did in this case. They do this at different points in time. Sometimes formally, others informally. Operator opinion is not irrelevant or they would not be asking for it. Since the operators are volunteers and could leave at the end of their service period leadership is aware enough to ask. Degredation of force is a concern, clearly. If enough people hung up the spurs it could impact readiness.
If they were not interested in what they thought they would not send out surveys to see what they think as they did in this case. They do this at different points in time. Sometimes formally, others informally. Operator opinion is not irrelevant or they would not be asking for it. Since the operators are volunteers and could leave at the end of their service period leadership is aware enough to ask. Degredation of force is a concern, clearly. If enough people hung up the spurs it could impact readiness.
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I to found this thread on the subject.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/04/05/surveys-special-operations-troops-doubt-women-can-do-the-job.html?ESRC=army.nl
In my case right now if I were in good health physically and had this knowledge I could probably go in with a group of angry women and wipe out a lot of enemy. Women have a tendency if strong once they are focused on a mission they push till it is done. Haven't you ever heard of being aware of a woman scorned. Just send a group out on a trial mission that is small ones who want to be strong and have a mindset of proving they are strong and you just might be amazed at the results. And women can tolerate a lot of pain if ever captured. I am one who would rather die myself then to ever rat out where my group of brothers and sisters are. Let them beat me torture me I have gone this many yrs with the sickness of toxins so am sure if I can do that and refuse to let the devil win other women can too. Yes some are weaker I will not lie about that one. But you put a pizzed off woman out there with a gun and I guarantee there would be some bodies laying around. Look at the Amazon women. I was talking to a history teacher last night said back in the 1800's there was a group of women who went out and killed many towns to reach their goal. So give them a small test and see. They sure worked us over in 1978 training us. I already plan on helping along this border where I live even as a disabled veteran if I have to crawl out in the areas I have secured with my weapon if anything hits across this border. And many no me here and no I would too. Many have even said they would come to my house if SHTF. Knowing I have bad disabilities, not to protect me but get to me so I can help protect them lol....So you decide.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/04/05/surveys-special-operations-troops-doubt-women-can-do-the-job.html?ESRC=army.nl
In my case right now if I were in good health physically and had this knowledge I could probably go in with a group of angry women and wipe out a lot of enemy. Women have a tendency if strong once they are focused on a mission they push till it is done. Haven't you ever heard of being aware of a woman scorned. Just send a group out on a trial mission that is small ones who want to be strong and have a mindset of proving they are strong and you just might be amazed at the results. And women can tolerate a lot of pain if ever captured. I am one who would rather die myself then to ever rat out where my group of brothers and sisters are. Let them beat me torture me I have gone this many yrs with the sickness of toxins so am sure if I can do that and refuse to let the devil win other women can too. Yes some are weaker I will not lie about that one. But you put a pizzed off woman out there with a gun and I guarantee there would be some bodies laying around. Look at the Amazon women. I was talking to a history teacher last night said back in the 1800's there was a group of women who went out and killed many towns to reach their goal. So give them a small test and see. They sure worked us over in 1978 training us. I already plan on helping along this border where I live even as a disabled veteran if I have to crawl out in the areas I have secured with my weapon if anything hits across this border. And many no me here and no I would too. Many have even said they would come to my house if SHTF. Knowing I have bad disabilities, not to protect me but get to me so I can help protect them lol....So you decide.
Surveys: Special Operations Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
Surveys find that men in special operations forces do not believe women can meet the physical and mental demands of their jobs.
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If a person is qualified for a job, let them do the job. It does not matter if it is a man, woman, or hermaphrodite. Pure and simple set the standards, turn the service members loose on the standards, take the most qualified person for the billet. That means one set of standards that all candidates need to achieve in order to be considered. On the other hand, the truth is there is a lot more to combat and Special Operations roles than just how high can you climb, and how many push ups can you do.
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All the stats and studies will not solve this argument. Train them and put them in the damn field and see if they can hack it or not. If f they cannot pass training to the current standard, then send them back to the finance office, supply rooms and hospitals from which they came.
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