Posted on Mar 17, 2021
How will the military handle the conundrum with the Catholic Church and same sex marriages?
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Have to toss this out there - being Roman Catholic. Had to dig deep, please feel free to pass around to the masses!
The Department of Defense (DoD) now has a conundrum with same sex marriage on its hands, due to the newer policies of the Biden Administration, as the Pope recently stated that same sex marriages are barred. With the new administration in office, same sex marriages are now permitted and acceptable. This raises several difficult question(s) for the militaries Religious Services as a whole, and I will explain.
1) Are Chaplains/Deacons now not permitted to marry same sex due to their own religion, or religious faith, morals and values as dictated by the church?
2) Are Chaplains/Deacons now eligible to be prosecuted for not following lawful orders from higher under UCMJ or observed to be immune?
3) Due to Catholicism now undergoing a major change, if barred, and if DoD accepts and modifies its mandates, should other religions be permitted to marry, or are all religions now to barred?
I have come to remain neutral on the matter as every era has its changes. When I was younger in my 20s, honestly, I was against - out of the woodwork with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", folks just started popping up, left and right. No choice in the matter serving, I slowly started accepting change and now am neutral with the matter - as can't change it, roll with it!
I bring to light these questions, and I'll pose another with Muslims and being able to marry up to 4-wives. Why not permit? Obviously, the DoD wants to include what society has seemingly come to accept with some activity, but Catholicism has yet to take on. However, Muslim activities are held back by the DoD, e.g., 4-wives... Why?
I myself find it rather funny with what is acceptable, and what not, when it comes to religious activity and what is considered immoral.
And SO, my ask a question -
One must ask, where does/should the DoD draw the line with crossing Religion and religious matters of morality and/or now having to deal with actions against those whom may/might not want to, rather cannot, due to their religion, permit? And, why is it now okay for some matters of moral/immoral activity, for some, but not all?
Am interested to read folks opinions on the matter - HOWEVER, BE KIND AND RESPECTFUL OF ONE ANOTHER, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY HEATED TOPIC FOR SOME!!!
https://apnews.com/article/vatican-decree-same-sex-unions-cannot-bless-sin-077944750c975313ad253328e4cf7443
The Department of Defense (DoD) now has a conundrum with same sex marriage on its hands, due to the newer policies of the Biden Administration, as the Pope recently stated that same sex marriages are barred. With the new administration in office, same sex marriages are now permitted and acceptable. This raises several difficult question(s) for the militaries Religious Services as a whole, and I will explain.
1) Are Chaplains/Deacons now not permitted to marry same sex due to their own religion, or religious faith, morals and values as dictated by the church?
2) Are Chaplains/Deacons now eligible to be prosecuted for not following lawful orders from higher under UCMJ or observed to be immune?
3) Due to Catholicism now undergoing a major change, if barred, and if DoD accepts and modifies its mandates, should other religions be permitted to marry, or are all religions now to barred?
I have come to remain neutral on the matter as every era has its changes. When I was younger in my 20s, honestly, I was against - out of the woodwork with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", folks just started popping up, left and right. No choice in the matter serving, I slowly started accepting change and now am neutral with the matter - as can't change it, roll with it!
I bring to light these questions, and I'll pose another with Muslims and being able to marry up to 4-wives. Why not permit? Obviously, the DoD wants to include what society has seemingly come to accept with some activity, but Catholicism has yet to take on. However, Muslim activities are held back by the DoD, e.g., 4-wives... Why?
I myself find it rather funny with what is acceptable, and what not, when it comes to religious activity and what is considered immoral.
And SO, my ask a question -
One must ask, where does/should the DoD draw the line with crossing Religion and religious matters of morality and/or now having to deal with actions against those whom may/might not want to, rather cannot, due to their religion, permit? And, why is it now okay for some matters of moral/immoral activity, for some, but not all?
Am interested to read folks opinions on the matter - HOWEVER, BE KIND AND RESPECTFUL OF ONE ANOTHER, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY HEATED TOPIC FOR SOME!!!
https://apnews.com/article/vatican-decree-same-sex-unions-cannot-bless-sin-077944750c975313ad253328e4cf7443
Posted in these groups: 
DoDCatholic CharitiesCatholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston
DoDCatholic CharitiesCatholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 8
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Thank you my friend SGT Jim Ramge, MBA for posting a thoughtful question.
1. As those of us very familiar with history understand, the laws of the land don't always seem reasonable and often don't line up with the tenets of faith in Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam [where Muslims are a minority as in this nation].
2. Objections due to conscience have been upheld at the supreme court for limited issues such as being forced to perform induced abortions, forced to counsel for or against induced abortion.
3. Doing what is right, noble and true to your faith often comes at a cost - from freedom to jail.
4. Individual chaplains and the faith they represent will need to come t terms for what they will do. Hopefully as in induced abortion, as long as there are chaplains who can perform a ceremony in good conscience then I hope those whose faith prohibits them form performing said ceremony will be permitted to do so.
FYI Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. PO1 H Gene Lawrence SMSgt David A Asbury TSgt David L. CH (MAJ) William Beaver SMSgt Lawrence McCarter SGT Steve McFarland PO2 (Join to see) PO2 Frederick Dunn SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D SSG Franklin Briant SFC Chuck Martinez LTC (Join to see) LTC Wayne Brandon SGT James Murphy
1. As those of us very familiar with history understand, the laws of the land don't always seem reasonable and often don't line up with the tenets of faith in Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam [where Muslims are a minority as in this nation].
2. Objections due to conscience have been upheld at the supreme court for limited issues such as being forced to perform induced abortions, forced to counsel for or against induced abortion.
3. Doing what is right, noble and true to your faith often comes at a cost - from freedom to jail.
4. Individual chaplains and the faith they represent will need to come t terms for what they will do. Hopefully as in induced abortion, as long as there are chaplains who can perform a ceremony in good conscience then I hope those whose faith prohibits them form performing said ceremony will be permitted to do so.
FYI Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. PO1 H Gene Lawrence SMSgt David A Asbury TSgt David L. CH (MAJ) William Beaver SMSgt Lawrence McCarter SGT Steve McFarland PO2 (Join to see) PO2 Frederick Dunn SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D SSG Franklin Briant SFC Chuck Martinez LTC (Join to see) LTC Wayne Brandon SGT James Murphy
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
PO2 Frederick Dunn - Fred, my first thought is this, our Constitution was written under those men whom had Christian beliefs. But as we drift further and further into a nation of age, we move away from what, I believe, personally that is, for those whom signed the Declaration had intended - however, stated, that is why we have SCOTUS, to ensure that we stay true to the signatory wishes of the original penned Declaration - LOL!
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
LTC Stephen F. - My Friend & Brother Stephen, knew I could count on you to keep me straight! I just thought I’d ask as question as it arose in the news... Did know it seems the the DoD had already hashed this one out years ago, or so it seems.
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There is no conundrum here. The Pope said the Catholic church will not bless same sex marriages. Chaplains are not required to perform marriages by the military that is a personal decision for them. Performing marriage is not one of their official duties, ministering and spiritual health are. The Catholic church has said they will accept same sex couples, just not perform the marriages.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Thank you for the information Jason! I've been away from the Church for a bit, but years ago, when the Pope spoke, it was kind of like Gospel - pun intended!
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Well first off, in regards to marriage. The clergy simply perform a ceremony to make the marriage fit within the religion, but nothing legally happens. It is the town/county that legally marries people and that is what is used by DEERS to handle who is married to whom in the DoD - regardless of which or if any religion was involved. So it really doesn't matter to the DoD what a religion says.
You can't legally be married to more than one person at a time in the US, despite what a religion might say, the government only allows 1 and recognizes 1.
You can't legally be married to more than one person at a time in the US, despite what a religion might say, the government only allows 1 and recognizes 1.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Jeff, have to agree to disagree with your statement on the clergy, DEERS and DoD, for my time and prior, we were permitted to get married in the church on base. My parents are still in DEERS as proof. That said, rules change, and I can agree if they have, and will! Where my contention is with as some have stated within the last 24-hrs, is that those serving have orders, and would basically face UCMJ for not performing their duty.
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CW2 (Join to see)
SGT Jim Ramge, MBA - I'm not 100% on the time period but even when having clergy officiate a wedding, it's the marriage license applied for through the governing body that is the actual marriage.
When it comes down to it, the persons getting married are making a CHOICE to use clergy in their wedding, it is not required. Religion is, and always will be, a private matter and only is an issue to people (clergy or general population) because they choose to let it be an issue.
When it comes down to it, the persons getting married are making a CHOICE to use clergy in their wedding, it is not required. Religion is, and always will be, a private matter and only is an issue to people (clergy or general population) because they choose to let it be an issue.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Thank you for the clarification - done it twice and never paid attention I guess as the women had to do all the planning for some reason, LOL!
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It's not a conundrum for us peons. Higher policy and directives will be pushed down. We will execute said guidance.
We are all either trying to get to the next promotion, retirement, or ETS.
We are all either trying to get to the next promotion, retirement, or ETS.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
It is if you are an O3 ranked Army Chaplain of which since the mid-late 70's have been the typical for most on-base churches...
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There's no conundrum. Marraige is a legal contract administered by the state. The churches views are irrelevant.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Michael, I was simply bringing up a point that I thought was relevant, at least in my eyes of years past. With the morals and values placed upon a Chaplain, it just seemed odd to read and contradictory!
As far as the Church's views, and being relevant, one that always got me was during confession and the confessionary clause a Chaplain is to maintain. I cannot state it happens that often, and if it did, how not only the Church would handle, the Clergy, and the DoD - if a crime was committed and mentioned during confession.
Thank you for your opinion!
As far as the Church's views, and being relevant, one that always got me was during confession and the confessionary clause a Chaplain is to maintain. I cannot state it happens that often, and if it did, how not only the Church would handle, the Clergy, and the DoD - if a crime was committed and mentioned during confession.
Thank you for your opinion!
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Generally speaking, Chaplains are required to serve all personnel. However they are only required to perform religious sacraments within the scope of their faith. Marriage is a sacrament within the Catholic faith.
In practice, a Catholic Chaplain would not be required to OFFICIATE a same sex marriage, but he WOULD be required to minister to same sex couples by providing counsel, comfort, and aid.
In practice, a Catholic Chaplain would not be required to OFFICIATE a same sex marriage, but he WOULD be required to minister to same sex couples by providing counsel, comfort, and aid.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Excellent points Casey! I wonder with the new DoD policy as stated, if said Chaplain would be required to "provide counsel, comfort and aid"?
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SFC Casey O'Mally
What new DoD policy?
Do you mean the new Vatican policy? Cause that ain't new. The Catholic church has traditionally condemned homosexual unions, regardless of what they are called. But that still doesn't prevent a military Chaplain from taking care of Soldiers.
Do you mean the new Vatican policy? Cause that ain't new. The Catholic church has traditionally condemned homosexual unions, regardless of what they are called. But that still doesn't prevent a military Chaplain from taking care of Soldiers.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
SFC Casey O'Mally - Biden Administrations policy which the DoD now has to implement. Having been retired 20 years ago, I’m really more curious than anything how this era has taken the back and forth of the forced Legislation and furthered apprehension by one of the largest Christian faiths in the world - Other than the typical three bags full, salute, shut-up, move-out, how has the military, or what has the military truly had to do to incorporate, or what almost seems like, re-invent the wheelbwith African-American (black service members), really during the periods of WWII forward, thru Vietnam. Having read GEN Powell’s, “My American Journey”, and reading some of the things he went thru, and watching many parts of our history on TV over the years, I’m simply intrigued I guess you could say...
I can say in good conscience, as a military brat, I got to see a lot during the 70s in the NCO Corp, the Officer Corp during the 80s, and serving during the 90s. Then watching my younger brother enlist after 9/11 within the Infantry, then go to OCS during the mid 00s. During that same time period, my father was re-called to active duty as a WO, and worked into the early 10’s as one of the most Sr. Active Vets on duty. So I’ve witnessed 5 decades of the good, the bad, and the ugly, of what our military has to offer. From the sidelines as a dependent, serving and then a Veteran, like many, got the t-shirt, sent the postcard, got the box of goodies and received air-mail, while singing Yellow-Bird. Just really wondering what is happening to my/our beloved Army/DoD traditions, values, honors, so as to pay my respects and how I must do so upon seeing fellow Veterans in the VA, VA Hospital in passing. No ill harm!
I can say in good conscience, as a military brat, I got to see a lot during the 70s in the NCO Corp, the Officer Corp during the 80s, and serving during the 90s. Then watching my younger brother enlist after 9/11 within the Infantry, then go to OCS during the mid 00s. During that same time period, my father was re-called to active duty as a WO, and worked into the early 10’s as one of the most Sr. Active Vets on duty. So I’ve witnessed 5 decades of the good, the bad, and the ugly, of what our military has to offer. From the sidelines as a dependent, serving and then a Veteran, like many, got the t-shirt, sent the postcard, got the box of goodies and received air-mail, while singing Yellow-Bird. Just really wondering what is happening to my/our beloved Army/DoD traditions, values, honors, so as to pay my respects and how I must do so upon seeing fellow Veterans in the VA, VA Hospital in passing. No ill harm!
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The military must follow federal law. period. No politics, no religion, just the law.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
This is what I always thought... That is, until I saw a fellow co-worker unroll a rug and face east at prayer time in the motor pool almost 30 years ago. So where does religion now fit in, he's on government time, right?
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SGT Jim Ramge, MBA - And how does that interfere with his duties?
I mean, we allow Soldiers to take breaks to smoke, eat, grab a drink, use the restroom, even just to chat with a fellow Soldier, as long as mission allows. If mission does NOT allow, the Soldier can't do it. Do you really think we are stopping a combat patrol outside the wire to allow a Soldier to roll out the prayer rug? Not just no, but HELL NO. But in the motor pool? Where the WORST that will happen is the HMMWV is repaired 5 minutes later than it would have been? Why not?
I mean, we allow Soldiers to take breaks to smoke, eat, grab a drink, use the restroom, even just to chat with a fellow Soldier, as long as mission allows. If mission does NOT allow, the Soldier can't do it. Do you really think we are stopping a combat patrol outside the wire to allow a Soldier to roll out the prayer rug? Not just no, but HELL NO. But in the motor pool? Where the WORST that will happen is the HMMWV is repaired 5 minutes later than it would have been? Why not?
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Casey, wasn't disagreeing with your statement. I actually agreed with! I was stating what I had observed. Hell, could have been during his re-aligned lunch time, I never paid that much attention, as he wasn't mine, nor my business. And, you are absolutely correct with your furthered comments - point taken, appreciate the feedback, honestly!
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Can we change the WEATHER? These tremendous cultural changes are REAL! What about transgender accomodations and new fitness standards? How will these changes impact Combat Readiness?
We can't change the weather but we can use an umbrella meaning members of the Armed Forces need much Diversity EO training to accomodate the vast cultural profound changes affecting our surrounding the world.
We can't change the weather but we can use an umbrella meaning members of the Armed Forces need much Diversity EO training to accomodate the vast cultural profound changes affecting our surrounding the world.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
James - These are good points, but at what length do we go? At what point do we start giving up, pride, tradition, ceremony and hierarchy? Some of which began for some - if you recall years ago, those "Time Out Cards" for those kids in the early '90s going thru TRADOC, Don't Ask, Don't Tell under the Clinton Administration, and then furthered with a black beret under GEN Shinseki... Look at just how many times unnecessary uniform changes have been made and for what reason - were they truly impeding Combat Readiness?
Cultural, age, gender bias training, weight, body type, yes, those all fall under the EO side of things, and yes, should constantly be reviewed. Why, because eras change, and so do certain things within... That said, the military should not have to change its standards to meet the people, the people should have to meet the standards of the military!
Just my humble opinion.
Cultural, age, gender bias training, weight, body type, yes, those all fall under the EO side of things, and yes, should constantly be reviewed. Why, because eras change, and so do certain things within... That said, the military should not have to change its standards to meet the people, the people should have to meet the standards of the military!
Just my humble opinion.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
CPT Lawrence Cable - Lawrence, I saw and dealt with this too! I almost see our Constitution being re-written again soon, well, another addendum, or rather Article being written over some of the things that have come up of late! Great comments - thank you!
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SFC James Corona
Sir, I hear you loud and clear; however, servicemembers obey orders and policy placed by the political and service branch Leadership. I believe in the traditional one Christian one male female spouse marriage institution but Leadership and people have changed
(if for the worse for combat readiness}. Someone in this forum said "wait to retire or ETS" if we disagree with these profound policy changes happening in the U.S. Armed Forces today because they absolutely will affect combat readiness.
(if for the worse for combat readiness}. Someone in this forum said "wait to retire or ETS" if we disagree with these profound policy changes happening in the U.S. Armed Forces today because they absolutely will affect combat readiness.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
SFC James Corona - James, things used to be a little more simpler in the CMD with the occasional pregnancy - No Harm, No intended Fowl Ladies! Just saying, was the truth back then...
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