Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
1.85M
16.7K
5.38K
1.5K
1.5K
0
Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
It must be nipped in the bud quickly and without hesitation. Having had a few minutes to think about it, here goes....
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.
Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."
To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.
Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."
To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
(3.1K)
(0)
SGT Jim Giffin
Sgt Neil Foster - You saved a lot of lives by keeping this guy from graduating and being a hazard in the civilian world of avionics.
(1)
(0)
PO3 David Keck
After hearing of some of the recent cases in the US military, I have to admit I am more concerned with senior enlisted and some officers that feel like OPSEC and unit discipline are someone else's problem. The new administration has a big problem and replacement at the top is the only solution.
(2)
(0)
PO3 John Priest
Sgt Michael Betts - One thing I learned real fast in the Navy is "Don't F* with the E-7 and above unless you are E-7 and above. They are subtle, quick to anger and will F* your day up if they choose to." I still won't mess with anyone who held that rank, it's just too dangerous.
(0)
(0)
SrA Travis Sanchez
Unless the E2 has a legitimate reason he cannot do the work (medical profile or something), then he should ask to speak to privately to resolve that issue with what ever legitimate reason he may have. But privately. You don’t challenge leadership in front of everyone else unless it is a legitimate unlawful order. And always with respect. But god no. He needs to be reminded of the military ways. Doesn’t matter if we’re Air Force, Marine, Army, Navy, Coast Guard, leadership should always be respected. Chain of command cannot be usurped. We have ways of doing things for a reason. It saves lives when things go south.
(0)
(0)
Praise in public, punish in private. "You stand fast after formation." Give him a chance to explain insubordination. Mandatory counseling. If he is defiant in private after getting the chance then burn him. ART15. Sometimes people are defiant because something happened and they feel out of control so they try to take it wherever they can no matter how inappropriate. Sometimes a wife cheated or a parent died. Sometimes the hospital calls and congratulates you on having cancer. To outright burn a Joe without gathering the facts is irresponsible and we would want someone breathing down our neck to take that extra moment to consider what might be going on too. If it's nothing more than attitude and a shitty personality then by all means light that dead Christmas tree and know you probably saved lives downrange.
(1.8K)
(6)
MAJ Tom Harper
I agree. Have the private, squad leader and platoon sergeant stand fast after formation. Find out what is going on before making a harsh decision. The private may need an article 15 or he/she may need emergency leave. As a former unit commander I made some decisions about personnel that I later regretted before having all the facts
(10)
(0)
LTC Stuart Knade
MAJ Tom Harper - Good wisdom Tom. There is almost aways some information you will later wish you had known before reacting. There is always another side to the story, 99% of which may be BS, but 1% you might have wanted to take into account before deciding how to deal with the situation.
(6)
(0)
1LT Peter Suedfeld
Sergeant Foster said that "Dipshit" was always in trouble. So this incident of insubordination was not a one-off because the guy's girl friend dumped him or he had indigestion. Getting him out of the service was the right move.
(6)
(0)
I can speak from experience on this one. On my first boat( yes I'm a submariner) as an E3 I was made Deck Div LPO, AKA Leading Seaman. While passing out the day's job assignments, I was told "f@#k no" by one of the new seaman. I was shocked to say the least. I went to the 1st LT, a TMCS, and informed him of my situation. He told me in no uncertain terms to take said individual to the back of the work barge and show him the error of his ways. I did so, physically. The young man never questioned me again.
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
(1.6K)
(0)
LTC Stuart Knade
As a new 2LT infantry rifle platoon leader (Army) 43 years ago I had tons to learn from my plt sgt, a 2-tour Vietnam vet as a Marine. When this kind of thing happened he would tell me that he had it under control and not to ask questions. "Don't ask me sir". I never saw repeats of that kind of behavior.
(7)
(0)
LTC Stuart Knade
I should add that the biggest lesson was that officers should let the NCOs take care of "Sergeant's business".
(12)
(0)
PO2 Stephen Brownell
When and E2 stated that he wouldn't do it we would have a little talk in the boatswin locker or in the boiler room then he would not talk or open his mouth when he was not asked
(4)
(0)
PO3 Gregory Hott
I was a PO3 on a carrier early 1970's. At sea (PACIFIC) and I was last man on ship to be accounted for in a man overboard drill! Honest mistake but still very serious, had to see the ships XO! Boy was I scared! Almost at the end of a four year tour. I was always professional, did my job, but my uniform and military appearance was always marginal, it was my way of rebelling! That XO overlooked my appearance and treated me with complete respect (almost like a son)! I realize that I was not a model sailor but I did my job and I could always be counted on to do my best no matter what the job was. And in return I was always treated with respect in return!
(2)
(0)
I would definitely find out where the hell that came from, do my counseling, and give him some extra details as corrective action. But then I would step back and look in the mirror. I have noticed being in the mess hall last year that E-1's and E-2's eating with E-5's. During my young Soldier days that we were never allowed to eat with our NCO's and when we did it was a privilege. I am not saying that all NCOs are the same, but we have NCOs trying to be friends. You can't be a friend and lead. They need to know that you care for them but they neef leadership, not friendship. Just the thoughts of an old SGM.
(374)
(0)
SSG Richard (Rick) Dana
Back in my day (50 years ago) Vietnam days, you got the most respect from all ranks. Our officers called us by rank as even an E-1. We have many years experience under our belts as a NCO. We went through what they didn’t cry about it.
(3)
(0)
TSgt (Join to see)
You sound like a rarity these days. Seems most CSM, CMS.....are just E9s.
And lets not forget our officers these days: Admiral Rachel (Richard) L. Levine, West Point teaching CRT instead of tactics........................
And lets not forget our officers these days: Admiral Rachel (Richard) L. Levine, West Point teaching CRT instead of tactics........................
(1)
(0)
In any command of mine. At that response, he becomes a meritorious Private and gets to know the brig staff.
I don't care if his dog just died and his wife left him. Immediate, intelligent obedience is the only acceptable response to a legal order. Any NCO that accepts less warrants a meritorious demotion. To accept less is an open invitation to misconduct before the enemy.
I had a case where this happened and it turned out the Sgt was sleeping with the Pvts wife. Immediately upon completing the court-martial for the Pvt. We initiated the court martial for the Sgt. They got to be brig mates.
It is far kinder to beat a dog one time hard then a thousand times lightly.
EDIT: I believe someone edited the original question posted by LTJG (Join to see) I'm not sure why. The original question was better and makes the responses not quite as nuanced.
I don't care if his dog just died and his wife left him. Immediate, intelligent obedience is the only acceptable response to a legal order. Any NCO that accepts less warrants a meritorious demotion. To accept less is an open invitation to misconduct before the enemy.
I had a case where this happened and it turned out the Sgt was sleeping with the Pvts wife. Immediately upon completing the court-martial for the Pvt. We initiated the court martial for the Sgt. They got to be brig mates.
It is far kinder to beat a dog one time hard then a thousand times lightly.
EDIT: I believe someone edited the original question posted by LTJG (Join to see) I'm not sure why. The original question was better and makes the responses not quite as nuanced.
(320)
(0)
Maj John Bell
SPC Benjamin Patterson - Did you read my initial comment. I'll copy the pertinent part for you with added emphasis.
"Immediate, intelligent obedience is the only acceptable response to a LEGAL order."
"Immediate, intelligent obedience is the only acceptable response to a LEGAL order."
(2)
(0)
SSG Michael McCalla
So. Let me get this straight. The NCO is sleeping with the private wife and you expect the private to respect the NCO??? In what universe does that happen? No in my world and you Court Martial the private? You Sir are an example of piss poor leadership. That SOB NCO would have gotten his azz whupped.
(1)
(1)
Maj John Bell
SSG Michael McCalla - The Marine should have brought the problem to the chain of command through any number of legal channels, Not by a showdown. I don't expect the private to respect the NCO. I expect the private to comply with a legal order.
Did you read the entire post. That "SOB NCO" was subjected to a summary court-martial and maxed out a a special court-martial. Forfeiture, Confinement for Six Months and a BCD. Had you been there, and chosen "barracks justice," I'd have been more than willing to make you familiar with the full force of the UCMJ and the fate of the undisciplined.
While you indulge your emotions, the adults are trying you make sure you and your fellow Soldiers and Marines have the discipline to get home alive and spend your golden years bitching about piss poor leadership; instead of your spouses, children and grandchildren gathering about a grave on Memorial Day and bitching about officers, SNCO's and NCO's that put together ill-disciplined units that came apart when things turned to crap.
Did you read the entire post. That "SOB NCO" was subjected to a summary court-martial and maxed out a a special court-martial. Forfeiture, Confinement for Six Months and a BCD. Had you been there, and chosen "barracks justice," I'd have been more than willing to make you familiar with the full force of the UCMJ and the fate of the undisciplined.
While you indulge your emotions, the adults are trying you make sure you and your fellow Soldiers and Marines have the discipline to get home alive and spend your golden years bitching about piss poor leadership; instead of your spouses, children and grandchildren gathering about a grave on Memorial Day and bitching about officers, SNCO's and NCO's that put together ill-disciplined units that came apart when things turned to crap.
(3)
(0)
TSgt (Join to see)
SSG Michael McCalla - Wrong, the Pvt should have taken it straight up the chin of command. But then again there are emotion and the time frame. Such as did the PVT just find out same same morning.............
(0)
(0)
SGT Daniel Durkovich
MSG Scotty Flood. Unfortunately this is a touchy feely military. I was an preceptor at the Naval hospital and a prior Army Sergeant. As a civilian I had no disciplinary powers but would demand military bering. Too many sailors whining about how mean I was because I demanded that things were done to standards and no pencil whipping on sign offs. Fired for being an asshole and not signing off on incompetence.
(3)
(0)
(2)
(0)
SSG Bill McCoy
You SF and Infantry types - right to the point! LOL My son was Infantry, and he amazes me with his comments about reprobate snuffies! "Throat punch!" Funny stuff, but I do get it.
(2)
(0)
As a drill sergeant I would have handled this way different. Haha. But now I remain calm and tell them in formation that is fine, no problem, come see me after formation with your squad leader. The magic of the pen is so much stronger than me yelling anymore. This PVT learns really quickly he has made a bad choice. Their time is important to them and when they don't have as much of their time as they used to it usually changes their attitude. And when it doesn't they soon will have all the time they want as a civilian.
(174)
(0)
SSG Jerry Chlarson
SFC Tracy Scott - Agreed, but nowadays that would be considered hazing, unless you put it in writing on the 4586 that you are in-fact helping them get ready for some high speed low drag school (which we both know they will most likely never attend). And hazing will have you standing tall. These little shits aren't stupid. There is a reason they have been so successful and doing the minimum and getting the maximum.
(3)
(0)
1SG (Join to see)
Well, as most of us know now the Military has gotten so far away from quick and decisive action you have to think outside the box. I have always been a fan of peer pressure leadership. I would have grabbed his NCO and the Soldier right beside him and told them they had to complete the task and had the other Troop watch them work. Even then someone would say this is HAZING because that term is thrown around just like everything else. At the end of the day tasking have to get completed and some unfortunate troop will have to get it done. You would be surprised what troops will do when they have do complete all the work while their lazy peers sits and watches.
(7)
(0)
SGT Peter Hayes
old days you smack the taste out of his smart ass mouth. and ask the rest of the squad if anyone else would like a new assignment. No just kidding now you let them that you love them and respect him and let him know how this assignment will benefit him.
and if this fails to work, go to the 1st statment
and if this fails to work, go to the 1st statment
(5)
(0)
CSM Charles Hayden
SSG Stan Morrison Jr The book, ‘From Here to Eternity’ has a great example of a rucked up troop at Schofield going on a road march while supervised by an NCO wearing a Pistol belt and canteen.
I have used that technique. “They” were offered a ‘ride’ to main post; SSG Taylor declined by saying, no thanks we are walking back!!
I have used that technique. “They” were offered a ‘ride’ to main post; SSG Taylor declined by saying, no thanks we are walking back!!
(5)
(0)
CPL Kirk Bevier
I had this happen to me. I asked what would remedy the situation. He said to fight him which I abliged. after he decided he had enough, the rest of the group did what I told them. No more resistance after that.
(12)
(0)
I have been in this position only with a specialist (e4) not a pvt. I gave and order for said specialist to perform a work detail. He refused. I pulled him to the side gave the order again. 2nd refusal. By that point I was livid. I asked why. He stated that by right of duty position we were equal and he shouldn't have to do a detail like that when there were other soldiers who could do it. Now I was seeing red. I reminded him that I was a sergeant (e5) and by that fact alone I out ranked him he said he didn't care what my rank was. I then "forcibly" informed him to report to the platoon office and stand by. I calmly reassigned the detail and went to the plt office. No specialist. He had talked with the platoon sergeant; who happened to be his tank commander and said I was singling him out because I knew he was a better soldier than me and he deserved the stripes not me. The platoon Sergeant said that he would handle it. I informed to PSG that I wanted to handle it since it was me that specialist disrespected. He asked what I planned to do. I informed him that I have already counseled that soldier on his attitude towards me before. This time I wanted to push for a summarized Art 15. The PSG said that I had some balls and he didn't think the 1SG or CO would do that to this particular specialist but if I wanted it then go. 1SG agreed commander didn't scared the hell out of the specialist and prevented him before appearing in front of next promotion board because of it. Earned my rep as a no bullsh17 NCO.
(133)
(0)
SSG Paul Headlee
Good for you Sergeant William Amundsen. We all know and are familiar with the framework we are supposed to operate within. There are always those who want to ruin it for their own personal gain. Thank you for helping him figure it out! Once he pulls his head out then maybe he can make the transition to NCO a bit more gracefully and quickly. You did the right thing!
(2)
(0)
1SG John Highfill
s1SG John Highfill after further reflection that Soldier would be out in the front leaning test while I went and got a cup of coffee then he snd his platoon SGT would have an invitation to visit my office
(3)
(0)
CPT William Jones
Again NCO’s the only people that can “give” an Art 15 are commanders in SM chain of command. That is by the UCMJ
(0)
(0)
If you are a senior E5 and you don't know what to do, maybe you shouldn't be a E5.
(109)
(0)
Lt Col Paul Maxwell
Of course, if he is E5 without that tool in his kit, where have the other SNCOs been who should be mentoring, teaching, and backing up said E5, when he confronts the not so very rare E2 with an attitude alignment dysfunction?
(9)
(0)
SGT Randall Smith
PO2 Steven Hardy - I agree with you Hardy. I was a Buck Sgt E5 in 68-69 in Viet Nam. We took no crap and kept our weapon close to hand.
(3)
(0)
PO1 James White
Changing culture in the military nowadays, when I was a young sailor, I witnessed three 2nd Classes (E-5s) conduct bulkhead training on a mouthy SA (E-2), and I learned by his failure, towards the end of my career, I would have been in big trouble for handling a situation that way.
(4)
(0)
SPC (Join to see)
PO2 Steven Hardy if he was that type of E-5 I’m sure he wouldn’t be having this problem
(0)
(0)
Read This Next