Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Ask him his height?
He will respond with why?
You reply: Because I want to know if we have the right size mattress for your cell in the brig shitbag. Now get your ass on the move and on task or you will wait out your enlistment in a cell, eventually. Show them to the nearest posted UCMJ, fold your arms and wait.
He will respond with why?
You reply: Because I want to know if we have the right size mattress for your cell in the brig shitbag. Now get your ass on the move and on task or you will wait out your enlistment in a cell, eventually. Show them to the nearest posted UCMJ, fold your arms and wait.
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In NCO school, had a guy refuse to march in step & kept saying sh*t while we were going somewhere. Wasn't sure if it was a disrespect or race thing. Stopped the platoon once & asked him to march properly & stop w/the comments. He complied for a minute or two then at it again. Stopped the platoon again, left faced everyone. This time I told him if he doesn't knock off the chatter & stay in step, I won't do a thing until we get back. I will then write him up requesting a bust in rank & fine. I think fines averaged around $135ish then. This will hit you in the wallet. He was already at the rear of the platoon so his being out of step wasn't that big of a deal to the other guys/Marines, just looked like sh*t. He stayed in step & no chatter the rest of the day. Much later I wondered if he was a plant by the instructors to test me.
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I hate the "back in my day" crap but here it goes. I don't recall NCO's directly confronting a disobedient soldier. What they did was make everyone else's life much harder. The problem was usually quickly resolved once the rest of the platoon had some "alone time" with the wayward soldier. If the soldier continued to be a problem, he was quickly separated from service. These individuals have a corrosive effect on unit integrity.
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Cut one testicle off and you'll never have a problem with him again, nobody wants to say he has no balls
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“What was that buddy? Oh I got something ELSE for your stupid ass to do then”
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When I listed in the Marine Corps back in October 79 those Drill instructors put the fear of God in us. As long as you were an NCOE4 and above you got the respect of everybody under you it never occurred to me that smart mouth a question order yeah we might’ve stood around as we carried out the order we might’ve sat around and talked about how we thought it was a bunch of BS sometimes but that was out of fact that we didn’t understand what was going on but never well we Tele staff and CEO or sergeant or corporal to his face. “ I ain’t doing it” that’s an instant beat down, There was no counseling to be had, no one feel pity for you fortunately during my time in the Marine Corps from 79 to 88 I seen very little of that kind of mentality. It wasn’t until the early 90s and beyond that I started hearing rumors E-3’s and E-2’s telling a sgt to go F%ck off.
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This would be a result of the "Everyone Gets A Trophy" Generation. Assure the young Private the only trophy he will get is a quick Article 15 and Chaptered out. Make sure the whole company is made aware of this example.
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First time is a private verbal counseling immediately following formation. Second time is written. Further incidents get elevated up the chain until the attitude improves or separation action is taken.
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In 1965 I volunteered for Vietnam. Ended up in Germany and somehow gathered an attitude problem. Realizing that the attitude problem would get me kicked out of the Army, I again volunteered for VN. After getting there, my attitude problem disappeared as there was way more pressing problems to worry about.
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Squad Atention, half right face...Private Snuffy drop...I will not stand for insubordination period. You will execute my orders and never question my decisions period. Any questions??? Private Snuffy recover. Squad half left face. Fall out... Private Snuffy at ease, this kind of negative attitude will not be tolerated, further disrespect can and will be grounds for an Article-15. Now do as I say! Dismiss...
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I was an E-6 in an Army where most Private’s were there because they were drafted, if you let them get under your skin they owned you. Remove him from your formation and have him stand at ease facing a wall in a corner where he has to turn around to see anything. Move your formation far enough away that he can’t hear wahat you are saying. Go about your duty, check on him occasionally. Rinse, repeat
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The corps is different from when I was in, now I would start the paperwork to modify their behavior. If that doesn't work soon, they will be a civilian flipping burgers wishing they would have made a different decision.
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I’m reading this question and I can’t think of any response. In my time in the military, beginning in 1963, the Army, that would have been unthinkable. I have a question, is this common behavior or uncommon? Quality of recruits, quality of NCOs or other superiors? I spent three years as an AF basic training instructor, the mid to late 80’s. From minute one the trainees understood this was the USAF and not a debating society.
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You don't want to know...
They would be in for "extra duty" until they couldn't walk & then some diagnostic PT.
They would be in for "extra duty" until they couldn't walk & then some diagnostic PT.
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I can see every a volunteer for every crap detail coming down the pike. Possible restriction, and escalating punishment for repeat offences.
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I tell them "SA/FA, etc. Smith, remain after the Division is dismissed and we will talk about this." I would then have a discussion with the wayward Seaman/Fireman about who assigns work and how it is not a choice. If the E-2 does not know HOW to accomplish the task assigned, that is one thing, we can assign a qualified person to train them and sign them off as appropriate (which will also go back to the assignment in the first place, ensure you assign qualified people to tasks). If they are trained and qualified to the task notify them that they have finite time to complete it and liberty call does not commence until task completion. I always stayed after liberty call with an individual that drug their feet if such happened. They usually got the hint that they WERE going to do the work assigned, and that I wasn't going to let them go on liberty until they did. I had this happen several times with an E-4 when I was an E-6.
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I welcome great, well-thought-out questions and I welcome curiosity, but I will not tolerate smart mouths in the middle of my formations, as a leader.
Generally, smart mouths are those soldiers who want to establish their knowledge, abilities and ideas ahead of others. However, there is a proper time and place for everything; there is an established chain of communication to bring forward brilliance and well-constructed ideas and, this established line of communication doesn't begin by being a smart mouth in my formations. This must be expressed without delay to the Team/Section/Squad leaders and platoon sergeants in the presence of the 1SG. Set the rules right from the outset.
Generally, smart mouths are those soldiers who want to establish their knowledge, abilities and ideas ahead of others. However, there is a proper time and place for everything; there is an established chain of communication to bring forward brilliance and well-constructed ideas and, this established line of communication doesn't begin by being a smart mouth in my formations. This must be expressed without delay to the Team/Section/Squad leaders and platoon sergeants in the presence of the 1SG. Set the rules right from the outset.
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I had a situation like this one. The E2 is smart mouthing for sure. First drop and give me 20 push ups. Then after all the others are dismissed I took that E2 to my office and asked them why they felt they had the right to refuse the assignment. The E2 said something like I can't do that work as i have not been trained. I said go with this other soldier and he will train you. After training and you refuse again you will be doing extra duty which you do now want to do. Now go and do the work.
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First been there and handled it. Now how I handled it. As a senior SERGEANT this becomes a question of respect not just disobedience and MUST be corrected. My first words in front of my soldiers is “ what the f#?! Is your major malfunction private?” This will demonstrate my authority in front of the soldiers and give him a chance to correct himself in front of everyone. Now some people do not get the hint. That’s when I send everyone else to do the assigned jobs. Then I will lock him up at parade rest and I will explain what is about to happen. He can either give me a reasonable explanation, receive corrective training, or we can write it down and begin the process to be out of the army. Now I have gotten responses where I was in the wrong and he did have a legitimate reason then it is your best judgment. I normally did not pursue the matter and after explaining how we were both in the wrong and how to handle this situation in the future we moved on. That’s wait till everyone else leaves and catch me after and explain the issue. This earns respect from everyone because you look fair and impartial. If on the other hand the reason is BS well we will decide on which corrective training. Now I explain that if I smoke him this will not allow further punishment but it is going to get very uncomfortable or he can continue to be disrespectful and in that case the army doesn’t need him and I will start the process to get him involuntarily separated from the military. Explain the process. Most of them choose smoking. At a minimum this will take an hour. I carried a tank ball bearing for such times. After I was done most could not left their arms past shoulder height, their legs were like noodles, and there were sweat stains on the ground. It has to last and it has to be enough so when he talks about it others do not want to do the same. Remember to strive to be fair and impartial, do not allow it to get personal stay come and in control. Do not raise your voice. I hope this helps.
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