Posted on Feb 22, 2018
LCpl Timothy McCain
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After the shooting in Florida many people began to say arm the teachers. But they over look that a police officer was there. As a Marine I understand how difficult it is to close on and take an active shooter even with the best training and equipment. During the Dallas shooting 11 police officers was injured and another 6 was killed. Out of all the return fire none actually hit the suspect. Infact the suspect was killed by a remote control robot carrying an explosive. The reason why the suspect wasn't killed by a well aimed handgun shot is because of what we call the fog of war. When the shooting starts panic and confusion set in and the way we deal with it in the military is continually to train for those situations week in and week out. But without a third of the training people are expecting teachers to be able to identify the location of the shooter, know the movement of other armed teachers, know the movement of the innocent students and staff, close on the shooter and fire a well aimed shot without putting any students in further danger. Is that realistic?
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SSgt Christopher Brose
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15
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A pistol will kill you just as dead as a rifle. The AR-15 has a much greater range than a pistol, but that's really only a factor outside the maximum effective range of the pistol. Inside a school building, having a pistol is not a significant disadvantage.

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SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
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SP5 Mark Kuzinski
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SSgt Nevin Kirkland
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Schools are soft targets, I just don't see any reasonable, legitimate argument against arming teachers or putting multiple guards/officers in schools.

Your point about training and preparedness is well taken, and of course there's a risk that a less-trained person won't handle a crisis as well as they should. But that risk is much, much lower than the risks being taken by making it well known a school is a soft target in which an active shooter is unlikely to face any significant resistance. And besides, the most likely effect of arming teachers is deterrence, not a shootout between teachers and active shooter.
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SSG Robert Webster
SSG Robert Webster
8 y
Cynthia Croft - And in the case of this youth in Florida, IF law enforcement and others had followed through with performing their jobs, this incident would not have happened. Another might have happened but not this one. According to public records the police responded to complaints on this individual within one year approximately 39 times. Common sense (which is sorely lacking around the world) would dictate that the local police would expend some resources in watching out for this individual. (And that doesn't even count the police involvement in his school expulsion.)

1+1=2 (Unless you are using Common Core, and then I have no idea what 1+1 equals because they do not define the numeral system) If the numeral system is undefined, in mathematical terms, the decimal system is supposed to be automatically assumed.
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LTC James McElreath
LTC James McElreath
>1 y
SSgt Kirkland,
There is a problem with the untrained person with a gun! It is called friendly fire and it happens all the time. n Police in schools is the better option than teachers with guns!
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MAJ James Woods
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Thanks. Well said. Some folks want to believe it's a numbers game. How many armed administrators, educators, teachers, staffers would it take to pacify an armed active shooter with semi-automatic rifle? Like the deputy, we don't know who will panic, who will be calm and collective, who will hesitate, who will be accurate with their fire, who won't mistakenly shoot a hostage or bystander, who is willing to kill another human being? Human nature is unpredictable. Trained professionals hesitate, make bad judgments, or panic and I'm to assume an amateur with a gun is going to do a better job at protecting my kid. First time in combat, I didn't know how I'd react; four long deployments later, I was on automatic response. I want my kids' teachers to educate first, safeguard them in a crisis, put themselves between my kid and the threat; not run into the hallways chasing the threat down. If we do arm them then they should play defense not offense.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
6 y
I'm not sure I really buy this argument. There are hundreds of justifiable homicides every year by private citizens that generally have very minimal training. They didn't freeze. The one thing certain is that they had a chance to protect themselves. How many bad events were prevented by the presence of a firearm is hard to measure, but in the civilian world, I personally have been involved in two, including one that I believe would have been a home invasion. A 45 ACP made them rethink their target.

I support it for two reasons. The first is it would at least give that teach/administrator the opportunity to fight back. Yes, I understand all the what ifs, but the not what if is that an active shooter keeps shooting until he is done or he's dead. The second reason is one that everyone seems to forget. Mass Shooters don't target the donut shop where all the police hang out, they target places were everyone is unarmed, and in many cases, unable to resist. Even Nidel Hasan understood this when he chose to shoot up the PX at Ft Hood, where it was guaranteed that the only people armed would be the MP's.

It doesn't take a lot of training to get someone where they can hit that 7 meter torso center mass, and that's the ranges we should be talking about when we talk about arming teachers.

As an example, Armed Teachers have just about eliminated the targeting of schools by terrorist in Israel. Again, Terrorist generally are looking for easy targets, not one that may fight back.
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MAJ James Woods
MAJ James Woods
6 y
CPT Lawrence Cable First don’t call it justifiable homicide. It’s either self defense or homicide. Cops killing the armed suspect isn’t referred as justifiable homicide.

Next you bring in more “ifs” than I do. We give LEOs and military benefit of doubt of recurring training (range quals and scenarios) that build their competency, character, and conviction that under fire and stressful conditions they will do the right thing; show personal courage and self sacrifice to protect others in a mass shooter and not self preservation (ie the deputy at Marjory Stone Douglas High). So unless we guarantee the same level of training to school officials we can add to our risk assessment high to severe risk of armed, insufficient trained personnel on site.

As for all those private citizens that successfully defended themselves, yes that happens. What also happens are private citizens negligently discharging firearms in public, wrongfully killing a person in a Stand Your Ground cried wolf incident, and cops wrongfully killing a lawfully armed citizen (yeah that has happened).

Your Nidal Hasan example is nothing but you arguing that people should be allowed to carry on military installations. Hasan chose a military post not cause of the gun control measures but cause of the impact such a target would have on the public. Otherwise he’d gone to a nearby civilian public space with similar gun control measures. Instead he risked encountering RAM screening measures at the Army gate; you know when they randomly search vehicles.
Bottomline: if we’re gonna arm school officials the program best ensure risk mitigation to ensure they not only carry but go through recertification and recurring training to ensure a level of competency we expect for at least private security guards
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
6 y
MAJ James Woods - No, Homicide just refers to killing another person, the prefix tells you if you committed a crime when you killed them. Justifiable Homicide is exactly how police shooting are described and their line of duty requires them to shoot in more than self defense.
I also think you really over estimate the amount of fire arm time the Average Police officer really gets. Most officers I know don't use their weapons except at qualifications and unless you are on a special team, that isn't exactly hard. And they are supposedly training to react to a wide range of situation involving deadly force.
I have no problems with requiring them to train a couple times a year.
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MAJ James Woods
MAJ James Woods
6 y
CPT Lawrence Cable One definition for homicide is “the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murderl” so how about we stop trying to simplify the word unless you’ll next tell me our military conducts homicide all the time.
Lastly Google “inventive things classroom security” and see so many innovations for non-lethal measures to enable school security against mass shooter threats. Yeah guns aren’t the only answer. Thanks.
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CSM Richard StCyr
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I believe someone who is trained and disciplined stands a good chance of defeating the types of attackers we see executing these mass school shootings.
The attackers are not counting on being exposed to counter fire and in the case of the disgruntled student shooters none of the reports I've read have identified them as having any training that would enable them to execute fire and maneuver if engaged. These cats are counting on reaping havoc on unarmed folks.
It takes training and discipline to throw rounds back and forth and I just don't see these folks being ready to go if confronted.
There are rounds that are made that will reduce the chances of folks being hit by rounds that miss the mark. I have an S&W Governor with a laser and one of the types of rounds is a .410 shell with a mix of frangible disks and pellets so If I have to hammer a home invader any rounds that miss the mark will not penetrate the walls of the house. Granted it's a hog but it's extremely accurate.
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LCDR Chaplain
LCDR (Join to see)
8 y
CSM Richard StCyr - the door add sounds great. Was it an electronic expansion, or something someone would have to manually put into place? The big problem I hate here is that any plans I lay out will likely be heard by the active shooter, being a student in the school. So, totally agree, they’d know to pull the alarms and unlock the doors.
Our district is so poor we’re having trouble keeping our classroom air clean, much less advanced security measures. Love the add to the door, I’m imagining it’s like the jam put into sliding glass doors. That the case or is it different? Looking for adding ideas and security measures to my class.
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CSM Richard StCyr
CSM Richard StCyr
8 y
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LCDR (Join to see) - Manual expansion but installs very quickly, uses the jambs to lock into on the sides and the handles hold against the door. None of the assailants have used breaching guns so this would be quick, effective and cheap.
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CSM Richard StCyr
CSM Richard StCyr
8 y
Cynthia Croft - Not a big fan of chemicals, any type of system that would discharge an agent requires added inspections , even installing a chemical extinguisher system for a cooking facility is pretty well regulated. Although a pressurized liner in a door jamb is a cool idea.
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CSM Richard StCyr
CSM Richard StCyr
>1 y
Cynthia Croft - In theory I like it, but with the construction and environmental standards it would be an absolute nightmare to introduce a chemical agent.
I think the ballistic coating part of your idea is great, because there are products on the market that could be easily retrofitted to existing doors and new production doors that would be relatively low cost, meet the fire and safety codes and wouldn't require any or very little follow on maintenance once applied.
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Edited 8 y ago
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Teachers do not go into teaching to carry a weapon and kill student threats - outside Israel where many teachers have mandatory military training in their background. I would not expect teachers to do this job - nor would I want to see many teachers touch a weapon. How about also issuing them some decent body armor or ceramic chicken plate as well? Warmest Regards, Sandy :)\

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SSgt Christopher Brose
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PO3 John Wagner - You are so right.
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LTC James McElreath
LTC James McElreath
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Give the teacher a device that secures the door and move the children into a concealed room of sorts
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SSG Paul Headlee
SSG Paul Headlee
>1 y
Absolutely. This would require volunteering as well as significant education and training/qualification. Its not for everybody.
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SSG Paul Headlee
SSG Paul Headlee
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SSgt Joseph Baptist Pretty scary.
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MSgt Walter Clack
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You make some very valid points that should certainly be considered. It would greatly depend on the training, experience, and dedication of the teacher/administrator/worker. Numerous individuals have put themselves between children and a shooter empty handed. Someone like that would most likely have the temperment to complete some basic training. I taught part-time after retiring and would have felt confident to carry concealed. There are many out there that are familiar enough with weapon use and strategy that they would at least distract the shooter and get him/her ducking instead of just killing. Again I stress if they are gonna put themselves in the line of fire at least let then have a fighting chance. Another very important consideration is that there are many people (teachers, administrators, workers) out there that really have no business ever touching a weapon let alone carrying one at a school.
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LTC James McElreath
LTC James McElreath
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You make perfect since! Harden the bldg., build safe rooms in between the classrooms, that can be secured and stay there until all clear is given.
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LtCol Dennis Ivan
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You are mixing skills and issues. The intent of arming teachers is not to have them conduct CQB to hunt down a shooter in an active scenario but be able to do exactly what you demonstrated shooters have done, ie defend a position.

As you stated one shooter was able to shoot 11 police officers and kill 6 more by bunkering. That is the intent of arming a teacher to have them defend / bunker their classrooms. Yes, I am sure there are people out there who think they should get into a gun fight, but you are right in a real scenario not only is that a bad idea for teachers who aren't prepared for it, it is highly unlikely they would be willing to do so. It is much more likely and practical that they would be able to defend their classroom full of children.
As a Marine you should know the most difficult and dangerous point in CQB is opening a door because the defender has nearly all the advantage, ie angle/position they are in to the door, understanding of the room and its arrangement, etc. This is the position arming teachers puts a shooter in, to have to make that door entry into an armed teacher.
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SSgt Bruce Probert
SSgt Bruce Probert
>1 y
Valid points COL
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COL Jon Lopey
COL Jon Lopey
7 y
LTCOL: You bring up very valid points. I think armed teachers probably would primarily defend students under their immediate control in a confined area; however, in my county at one time we armed some teachers and I think you have to react to the threat, even if you have to leave your comfort zone and engage a moving and dangerous target, especially if it is the last resort to stop a killer and save kids. You are right about door-busting - It is dangerous and certainly should only be done as a very last resort. Thanks for the excellent comments. COL L
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MAJ All Source Intelligence
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Edited 8 y ago
I think statistically its been noted that the sooner a shooter is confronted, the more likely they are to kill themselves. Maybe someone in law enforcement can back me up on that..... not sure but if so, let the shooter take himself out sooner. Sad but, they stop killing then. So if a teacher is willing and able to confron a shooter, why on earth would I discourage that?
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PO3 John Wagner
PO3 John Wagner
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SSgt Joseph Baptist - I never accused you of being an asshole.... quite the opposite... I said a paper asshole. All the difference between world and want there Sunshine..(yes, that's another thinly veiled ..yet ambiguous enough for doubt of directness..slur... just figured I'd say so before you attempted to prove that you have a blinding grasp of the obvious)
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PO3 John Wagner
PO3 John Wagner
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PO3 Bob McCord - I try to let everyone start out with a clean slate. This gentleman had already soiled himself in advance and proved irredeemable by fair means or foul.
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PO3 John Wagner
PO3 John Wagner
>1 y
SSgt Joseph Baptist - Your right. I forgot. Mea Culpa. There’s a difference between a mistake and a lie. But whatever flips your skirt.
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SPC Stiv ChenRobbins
SPC Stiv ChenRobbins
>1 y
Discussion to argument to pissing contest. On both parts.
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SSgt Bruce Probert
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I am an old marine and while this question really isn't easy to answer I will try. not all teachers are made equal and neither are the threats they face. There is a reason to think that the principle and her assistant a Sandy Hook would have been successful in stopping Adam Lanza had they been armed, they obviously had the courage. We just had several policemen fire 64 rounds at a subject in California without hitting the subject so let's not get too excited about training it has more to do with willingness to engage than being "Highly trained". We have good reason to believe bringing the threat under fire would cause the retreat of the threat and hopefully into the arriving police response. Depending on the teacher we would be more comfortable with the teacher as our defender than the police because the teacher has more combat experience. It would be amazing if any Cop were to win a gunfight with my late father so let's be a little circumspect about how this plays out. The hardening of the target through legitimate access control backed up by credible armed response is the foundation of school security, we must be understanding that the threats faced by our schools are not the same. Each threat has it's unique perimeters. We have 2 times a day when our kids are most at risk, when they are arriving and departing school We might consider additional police presence at these times. Domestic disputes are another especially when you have children being abducted by the non-custodial parent. Law enforcement needs to notify schools of these issues. It's hard to respond to a threat you aren't aware of. Security is only as good as the armed response to any threat. Any breach needs to be contained as quickly as possible, any securing of the perimeter and or awaiting backup when children are being shot at and killed is simply unacceptable. As far as the question of taking on a AR-15 with a pistol this shooter killed 17 wounded 14 well over 100 rounds fired not much of a shot I'd like my chances at ranges of 50 meters or less. Semper Fi
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MSgt Walter Clack
MSgt Walter Clack
>1 y
SSgt, This is one of the most thoughtful, realistic responses I have read on here. Well done Devil Dog. Semper Fi
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SSgt Bruce Probert
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COL Jon Lopey
COL Jon Lopey
7 y
SSG: You bring up a lot of valid points. I think a school defense strategy needs to be multi-faceted and layered. There is no doubt that a rapid, armed, and aggressive response from law enforcement is a key element of this strategy; however, the facts dictate most of these active shooter incidents are over within five minutes, which may in many instances put armed teachers or staff in the best position to stop an active shooter before more kids are slaughtered. I am a county sheriff and there are some schools that my deputies will not likely reach in 5-mintues in many instances and I would prefer responsible, well-trained, and motivated teachers or staff at least have the capability to stop a deadly threat if that is the only viable option. Thanks for your comments and service! Semper Fi, COL L
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GySgt Charles O'Connell
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If having armed teachers in schools were to become a reality my guidance would be herd your charges to a secure area, barricade your entrance/exit. If the shooter appears, no hesitation, drop them. But don't, DON'T!! Leave your charges unprotected.
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GySgt Charles O'Connell
GySgt Charles O'Connell
8 y
Better put, but my thoughts exactly.
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GySgt Charles O'Connell
GySgt Charles O'Connell
>1 y
SSgt Joseph Baptist - If this were to become a reality, then I agree maximum training, and background checks, for the candidates for the potential candidates. With the overall mandate that protection of the students is paramount. Assisting police in room clearing, maybe, but only, only once the students they are responsible are removed from the danger area. I still don't relish the idea of armed teachers.
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COL Jon Lopey
COL Jon Lopey
7 y
Gunny: What you recommend is actually what we teach in my county. I don't think your students should be left alone unless, as a last resort, you have to do so to stop a threat killing kids outside that comfort or barricade zone. In most cases, you are correct in your assessment of what to do and what not to do. It is possible in some of our schools to leave kids locked in a secure safe room and engage a threat without unnecessarily endangering those barricaded kids but it is only an option that should, again, be a last resort to save lives in imminent peril. Semper Fi, COL L
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