Posted on Sep 18, 2014
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?

FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.

I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?

What say you RP?
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SGT Jim Z.
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Slow your roll high speed
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1LT Nick Kidwell
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Edited >1 y ago
SPC =/= CPL, so SPC =/= NCO, so there is not a requirement per the regs.

You're just trying to do an NCO version of the good 1LT's saluting thread.
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SGT(P) Infantry Team Leader
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A SPC is not a CPL. They may have the same pay grade, but a CPL is an NCO, SPC is not. There's no argument to be said. That's how it is.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
1LT Nick Kidwell
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Um. That's exactly what I said.

So thanks, I guess?
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SGT Bn C&E Ncoic
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I guess some in some infantry units, that's the standard. I got approached by an infantry PFC downrange. He was simply asking me directions to the latrines. When calls me up, he simply says "excuse me Specialist" and snaps to parade rest and proceeds to ask me for directions. It threw me completely off guard. I thought he was joking at first but he was dead serious! So after quickly answering his question, I had to ask him why the hell was he at parade rest for a SPC, I'm not an NCO. His answer was that in his unit, they had to go to parade rest for anyone who outranked you, regardless of being NCO or junior enlisted.
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Edited >1 y ago
Only if it is a PFC (P). ;-)
Lt Col Instructor Navigator
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You Army guys really enjoy standing at parade rest. I don't even stand at parade rest when I talk to the wing commander.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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Lt Col (Join to see) , it is a custom/courtesy of the Army. And we are big on customs! Well... sometimes. Ha!
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1LT Nick Kidwell
1LT Nick Kidwell
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SFC (Join to see) - It is the Air Force after all. Their Customs and Courtesies are understood by all other branches to be less formal. ;)
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SFC Dave Joslin
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As a SFC I stood at parade rest for my MSG or 1SG, why shouldn't they. It's about tradition, respect and self honor. Maybe we have just gotten away from that too much.
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SGT Suraj Dave
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In some units, they implement this kind of policy sometimes. I had a company where they tried to do this....... it ended up not working... the career SPC's love that kind of stuff.
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Cpl Tyler Miller
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I guess coming from the Marine Corps I view this very differently than our Army counterparts. As a Lance Corporal (e-3) with 1 deployment, I was a team leader, and as such all Junior enlisted (to include other Lance Corporals who were not in that position) would stand at parade rest. Maybe it was just my unit but it is how I was brought up and was even expected of them by our platoon command. It was never looked at as "im better than you" it was simply a show of respect and just one more way of instilling discipline.
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Cpl Matthew Wall
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I don't believe that you have to be a NCO for someone to stand at parade rest. If you are a team leader I expect my team to stand at parade rest when I talk to them. When I was an E-3 and a team leader they did it. As an E-4 they did it. I see no difference.
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Cpl Christopher Bishop
Cpl Christopher Bishop
11 y
It would seem to me that there is a reason the Army has kept its E4-SPC rank, meaning there is a reason they DO NOT want these people to be NCOs. If they did, they could all just become Corporals. I will interject that there are some folks out there (not me) who dream of joining all the branches and scaling the rank system such that an individual HAS to reenlist at least once in order to pin on E5, making them an NCO. The Air Force has already done this by the E4 Senior Airman rank which is NOT an NCO. I understand these same people would also like to make E7 the "enlisted rank locking you into your 20-yr retirement option" (yes I know there are exceptions and thats another topic). However there are reasons the branches are different in that manner. In the Corps, those ranks are E4 and E6, scaled 1 down from E5 and E7. I suppose one could argue that its simply a matter of "chiefs and indians balancing".

Personally I believe that in general, the E4, whether NCO or not, who actually demands this of subordinates, is probably some asshat who fails to EARN their respect. If you can earn it, you never have to ask for it or bark orders about it. And those subordinates would do those things automatically.

Id like to add that I have heard that the Army only retains the E4-Corporal rank because there are a few Unlucky folks who the Army just wants to be able to park on more weekend Barracks Duties. In some manner of speaking, it seems to some folks that being the SPC with less staffing-related responsibility for the same pay is a better option...and I'm fine with that, however I don't believe that if you cheese out on those NCO-esque responsibilities, that you should be demanding anything of this nature from others. That said, I do admit that because Im not an Army person, I dont know all of the little details surrounding the decisions of Which E3s become SPCs and which become CPLs.

I mostly agree with Cpl Matthew Wall about "respect the position not the rank" however I might go a step further and say (when we are talking about the known faces you work with day in and day out) Respect the person underneath that rank and position.

A couple more little tidbits. I have seen some Marine E6 (StaffSgt - who in the Corps were mostly locked into their 20-yr option) become pretty unsat men in terms of their physical fitness, which in an Infantry unit directly and negatively impacts their value to that unit. As an E-whatever, I didnt pop into any particular position for these friggin slimy walruses, nor did they ever expect it, because they likely knew they were those "permanent E6s never going to make E7, and were just "hanging around until their 20yr mark". Some of them might still make decent squad/section leaders, and have some good stuff between their ears on a battlefield scenario...but if they cant even make it to the location physically in a timely manner, then that value is already mostly lost. Additionally there is still a reason that E7s get pulled to fill the Platoon Sgt billets when there are these E6s already in the platoon.

I mention this as an afterthought about "Army Doctrine". The E6s like the one I have in mid here...aren't even maintaining their own duties of the uniform, and therefore I don't need to treat them as I would the Battalion CO. Im sure some of you are reading this and having trouble digesting it, and thats ok....but remember these people weren't the ones "demanding of my popping to parade rest, or Attention", or any of that.
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Cpl Matthew Wall
Cpl Matthew Wall
11 y
I hear you on that. We had a 1st Sgt come in from MP to run our infantry company. First time we went on a hump he got blisters and got a ride back to the barracks. After that first impression nobody liked or respected him. He was 1st Sgt so we went with it, but inside we knew we couldn't count on him.
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SFC Observer   Controller/Trainer
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Cpl Matthew Wall and Cpl Christopher Bishop, though the rank of Specialist and Corporal (E-4) are the same as E rank, there is a difference. The Specialist rank is used in Combat Service Support Units and the Corporal rank is used in Combat Arms. Here is some insight as well that we use in the Army. In the FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
Now stating that, I just had a habit standing at parade rest with anyone that out ranked me. That's just me of course. But trust me there is a big difference between Specialist and Corporal.
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Cpl Matthew Wall
Cpl Matthew Wall
11 y
SFC Stanley, I've seen Specialist in the infantry before.

I think the key part to your FM is that "Unless otherwise directed" is a defining factor. If they were directed to then that is in the FM. Regardless of that though, I stated if they are a team leader and not a NCO it doesn't matter. You stand at parade rest.
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SFC Observer   Controller/Trainer
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FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.

There it is.....IN BLACK AND WHITE! A Specialist is not a NCO YET! Now if the Commander of that unit wants it that way then there has to be a Memorandum that has to be posted stating as such.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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That has basically been my reply to almost everyone. Well said SFC (Join to see)
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SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
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FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed. A Specialist is not yet an NCO. Being addressed as an NCO, having a junior Soldier stand at parade rest, is earned through promotion to and induction into the NCO ranks.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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LTC Mark Gavula I have read 600-25 during the course of this particular discussion, and in it I have failed to find where it mentions anything about Junior Enlisted standing at Parade Rest when addressing NCOs. I am not sure where you are taking your above comment. Can you please clarify sir?
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SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
11 y
LTC Marc Gavula, Sir, I was not speaking to salutes. I was responding to this question which referes to junior enlisted Soldiers standing at parade rest for a Specialist (E-4). Please help me to understand how I am another NCO that does not know a regulation?

Thank you,

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)
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SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
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SFC Jason Kendrick,

Thank you. I was unaware this discussion pertained to salutes.

V/R,

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)
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SFC Observer   Controller/Trainer
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I may be able to shed some light on this matter dealing with the salute issue. There was a Chief Warrant Officer 5 that responded to the parade rest question and made a comment about not getting saluted. If that was LTC Gavala was referring to, thats where may be the confusion is. And I would like to answer the statement that was eloquently put, that LTC Mark Gavala maybe referring to. I have read AR 600-25, 24 September 2004, on page 1, under 1-5 Hand salutes and salutes with arms, letter (b) starting at the second sentence: Salutes will be exchanged between officers (comissioned AND WARRANT and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard) etc, etc.........
I hope this cleared up ANY confusion or misunderstading.......

V/R,
SFC Stephen P. Stanley
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Cpl Matthew Wall
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Edited 11 y ago
It really depends on what his status is. If he is a team leader then yes the PFC should be at parade rest. As an E-3 and being a Team Leader we had Privates and PFCs at parade rest.
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SGT Neal Parker
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While that would do a lot for the SPC's ego, unfourtunatly the key word in the Reg. is NCO, a SPC isn't an NCO yet, so they don't warrant an at ease yet.
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SPC Cody McColgin
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No, unless a soldier is told to do so by leadership to do so. An Specialist is not an NCO. Caveot, if the Specialist is placed or has to assume any leadership position, yes proper military customs should be met to the position the soldier is "acting"
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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SPC Cody McColgin I was with you all the way up to "if the Specialist is placed or has to assume any leadership position". The Doctrine does make any statement of "if the SPC is in a leadership position".
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SFC David Bogue
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Specialist are not NCOs. corporals are. Specialist should stand at parade rest for corporals, but no soldier should stand at parade rest for specialist.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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Exactly.
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SPC Barrett Tillison
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Well, we've already covered this, but I think people have missed one thing. you stated and I quote "FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed." Those last 3 words are a game changer! While I was in I had gotten chewed out by a SPC (I was an E-2 at the time) for not standing at parade rest. This perplexed me since I had NEVER needed to do so prior to this. Well some months went by, and I found myself doing something at the Infantry barracks. I was still in Uniform, and was making a pit-stop at a friends barracks room before going home. Walking through the halls privates were jumping out of the way, and whenever I would say something to one of them they were at parade rest and called me by rank....I was quite confused. But those last 3 words are what did it, they had been "otherwise directed". While it is NOT the norm, and chances are that it may remain a rare occurrence, it is not unlikely that there would be some places where they had been otherwise directed to do so. After all I know some units consider SPC a transitioning stage, and that they are in a position where they are not quite an NCO, but are distancing themselves a little bit from the other junior enlisted.
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1SG Company First Sergeant
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or does "unless otherwise directed" refer to when an junior ranking Soldier goes to parade rest for a NCO, and that NCO tells them to relax, or something to that affect? In almost 16 years of being active, and having spent 13 straight years in combat arms units, I have never been "otherwise directed" in a sense that PFC and below stands at parade rest for a SPC.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
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I would take that "otherwise directed" would be in the form of a unit policy or directive which would come from a commander or senior enlisted advisor. Not a Specialist.
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
11 y
Call me a simpleton, but if I were a PVC again, I would consider a mere corporal telling me to relax or sit down to \qualify as being more "otherwise directed" than any disposition form posted on a unit bulletin board...
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SPC Petroleum Supply Specialist
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Well I answered wrong meant to say pump your brakes high speed
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Only if that SPC is filling the role of an NCO. Like a Team Leader, Squad Leader, etc. Otherwise, no... it's not at all appropriate.
CPL Armorer
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They should be afforded courtesy from PFC, but the PFC should not have to stand at parade rest. You should however do it for NCO's whether they deserve it or not. You must respect the rank even if you don't respect the person.
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1SG Company First Sergeant
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Everybody in the military deserves courtesy from one another regardless of rank.
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SSG Unit Supply Specialist
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Edited 11 y ago
There was no way in hell I was going to stand at parade rest for a SPC when I was an E3 :-). They are so not an NCO. Sorry "high speed"! You're special, but not THAT special :-). The situation would have to be REALLY serious. Otherwise, show respect? Yes. Parade rest? For an NCO.
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