Posted on Aug 6, 2018
What do you believe is the biggest internal problem facing the current military?
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What do you think is the biggest problem internally facing the military? As for me, I believe there are too many politicized leaders forcing the civilian PC bull onto us. Such as weakened BCT, with units complaining about undisciplined soldiers coming to their units. Forced redundant training that only needs down maybe once every few years. Also, soldiers who have been overweight since they joined, but are allowed to stay even though they don't meet fitness standards and the soldiers that skate by until they get promoted while the good soldiers are overlooked. Also when units blow things out of proportion when a sm seeks help. Finally, the standards regarding Officers, NCOs, and Jr Enlisted in regards to awards and school slots. What do you think? PFC (Join to see) SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSG(P) James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth PVT James Strait SSG (Join to see) Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish
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Training
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Political Correctness
United States
Training Military Family Problem Solving Political Correctness United States
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 29
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Careerism and butt hurt feelings. You can't tell someone what a crappy job they are doing for fear they will go postal or hurt themselves.
LTC Stephen F. SP5 Mark Kuzinski COL Mikel J. Burroughs SMSgt Lawrence McCarter Maj William W. 'Bill' PriceCPL Dave Hoover SSG William Jones Sgt Vance Bonds SGT (Join to see) Cpl (Join to see) Sgt Randy Wilber SGT Rick Colburn SPC Margaret Higgins SPC Kenny WatsonSSgt Donald Libby 1SG Carl McAndrews Maj Robert Thornton PO3 Bob McCord SPC John Waisman SPC Douglas Bolton
LTC Stephen F. SP5 Mark Kuzinski COL Mikel J. Burroughs SMSgt Lawrence McCarter Maj William W. 'Bill' PriceCPL Dave Hoover SSG William Jones Sgt Vance Bonds SGT (Join to see) Cpl (Join to see) Sgt Randy Wilber SGT Rick Colburn SPC Margaret Higgins SPC Kenny WatsonSSgt Donald Libby 1SG Carl McAndrews Maj Robert Thornton PO3 Bob McCord SPC John Waisman SPC Douglas Bolton
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
SPC Sheila Lewis - There are some High School that does happen, Lowell High School in Massachusetts has Air Force ROTC and another school in Boxboro MA, a Regional school had Marine Corp ROTC. Another program in all 50 states plus Puerto Rico and a few other places is the Civil Air Patrol Cadet program. CAP is an Auxiliary of the USAF and the CAP Cadet program is on par level with High School ROTC. I had been a CAP Cadet Myself and also had been in Army ROTC before I entered the USAF on active duty.
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Edward Samsen
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter - Out here in San Diego, many high schools have a JROTC program. I know Hoover HS has ARMY JROTC I had a student need to take a week away from her studies for summer camp, I signed my authorization for her GO NAVY, BEAT ARMY...the Master Sgt I sent it to came to see me and sau my USNA Pennant in my classroom we had a laugh about it. Morse HS also ARMY JROTC. I do not recall who had NAVY or Air Force. I know one school did have Air Force, I gave them a little greif about it.
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Sgt Vance Bonds
PO2 David Dunlap At TV he time, i didn't see the up buttons on any posts. The Col helped me and i think admins must have fixed me. LoL!
I hit it now
I hit it now
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I agree with LTC Greg Henning it does go in cycles. However this time we have become PC because of the population we draw from. Instead of making them comply with our standards, we are moving down (my opinion) to theirs.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Yes mam, I just don't understand why. We are the military...we join the military, the military doesn't join you.
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SFC (Join to see)
You answered your own question SSG(P) (Join to see), “We join the Military, the Military doesn’t join you!”
The military was based off of value, conducts, honor, a time honored tradition dating back to tribesmen. Hundreds of years of tradition, successful wars and failures are why we live the codes that we live today.
If these codes don’t cater to your needs then the military is not for you. A soldier does not want or need more then he is capable of giving. One life to save millions in the end is what being a soldier is about.
It’s like committing to a relationship. You have to give if you want to receive. The military has a lot to offer if your willing to learn from those boots that stepped before you.
We all make paths in life Cody, your either a leader or a follower. Stop asking what the military can do for you, and start asking what you can do for your time in service.
If your not helping, your hurting. And in the military that kind of mantality can cost lives. Including yours.
The military was based off of value, conducts, honor, a time honored tradition dating back to tribesmen. Hundreds of years of tradition, successful wars and failures are why we live the codes that we live today.
If these codes don’t cater to your needs then the military is not for you. A soldier does not want or need more then he is capable of giving. One life to save millions in the end is what being a soldier is about.
It’s like committing to a relationship. You have to give if you want to receive. The military has a lot to offer if your willing to learn from those boots that stepped before you.
We all make paths in life Cody, your either a leader or a follower. Stop asking what the military can do for you, and start asking what you can do for your time in service.
If your not helping, your hurting. And in the military that kind of mantality can cost lives. Including yours.
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Sounds like nothing much has changed in all the years since I enlisted (1966). We had recruits and draftees writing mommy about those mean DIs and the mean things they did. Then mommy wrote her Representative in Congress, who wrote the DA, who wrote to our unit commanders. Tiresome little trolls. When we got to OCS, we were told to not bother writing mommy. If we didn't like anything, anything at all, we could simply quit. No harm, no foul. Well, it seems to me that the all-volunteer military is the equivalent of attending OCS in those days. Don't bother writing. Just quit. No harm, no foul...
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Maj John Bell
MSgt Robert "Rock" Aldi - In my last billet, one of my collateral duties was to investigate Congrints and draft the CG's response. Because I had 72 hours to get the investigation complete, draft approved, and sent out; when I walked into a Regimental or Battalion CP I had "head of the line" privileges and could talk to anybody I wanted, right #$%@%$ NOW. It didn't matter if it was Saturday, Thanksgiving or Christmas Day, if I walked into the CP the Chain of Command had about an hour to get there, and no one went home until I said so. (Let's just say NO ONE was glad to see me, and even when I came down on the command's side I wasn't making friends.) The CG used to joke that I was good at the Congrints because I was happiest when people were mad at me.
_It was painfully clear to me that most congressional staffers had never held a job at burger king let alone knew a thing about the military. I believed that incredible ignorance of all things military was the first requirement of being a congressional staffer.
_It is incredible how much BS the lads told mommy. "No Congressman Umptifratz, the Marine Corps did not sentence Mrs. Benotz's baby boy to 7 years for bending the front sight post on his rifle. Despite what Cpl Benotz (now Pvt Benotz) told his mommy, he was in fact the largest drug trafficker in the Carolinas."
_Not 1 in 20 cases did the Marine have a legitimate complaint.
_When the Marine had a legitimate complaint usually the Chain of Command at the level of Platoon Leader/Platoon Sergeant or lower was doing their damnedest to keep it from getting to Company or Battalion. I cannot remember a single legitimate case where the Marine and either the Company 1stSgt or Battalion Sgt Major couldn't resolve the matter with a five minute conversation (that I had to sit in on, even though I felt it was disrespectful to the senior SNCO to have to do so.)
_It was painfully clear to me that most congressional staffers had never held a job at burger king let alone knew a thing about the military. I believed that incredible ignorance of all things military was the first requirement of being a congressional staffer.
_It is incredible how much BS the lads told mommy. "No Congressman Umptifratz, the Marine Corps did not sentence Mrs. Benotz's baby boy to 7 years for bending the front sight post on his rifle. Despite what Cpl Benotz (now Pvt Benotz) told his mommy, he was in fact the largest drug trafficker in the Carolinas."
_Not 1 in 20 cases did the Marine have a legitimate complaint.
_When the Marine had a legitimate complaint usually the Chain of Command at the level of Platoon Leader/Platoon Sergeant or lower was doing their damnedest to keep it from getting to Company or Battalion. I cannot remember a single legitimate case where the Marine and either the Company 1stSgt or Battalion Sgt Major couldn't resolve the matter with a five minute conversation (that I had to sit in on, even though I felt it was disrespectful to the senior SNCO to have to do so.)
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CPT Jack Durish
Maj John Bell A member of Congress can disrupt your life like a polecat at a picnic and is worth about the same. But damnit, they control the pursestrings
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Sgt Thomas Proctor
When I was in service (1959-1963) we had our own way of dealing with trouble makers and whiners, I guess you have heard of "blanket parties" or "GI showers". The NCOIC would look the other way and word of this type of discipline never got outside the barracks. I'm sure in todays military this would not be tolerated but it worked.
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Social issues, politics, millennials bringing in attitude taught by progressive teachers, relaxed rules, religion over military bearing, to lazy to meet standards so lower the standards, etc., etc., etc.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Lowering standards has never had a positive effect, what most of us learned in the Armed Force though did have appositive effect even when We became civilians. I was always thrilled to get veterans of the armed forces, already You had team player, people who did what was needed because they knew that was the thing to do. They were never late, did what was expected and then some. Overall they matured, leaned and the results mad a positive influence on them for the rest of their lives. That the way I saw it and I'd hate to lose that by any lowering of the standards.
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So what I get from your comments is the following:
1) Politicians trying to make the military politically correct --I would be really interested in what you mean by this statement, as 'PC' has become somewhat of a catch-all for a variety of things. Are you talking about not being able to rape or sexually harass female personnel? Perhaps not being able to openly discriminate against or disparage different races? Is it the fact that you have to work nicely alongside people that don't look like you? Exactly what 'PC' elements are you referring to. Do tell...
2) Weakened BCT? What parts are weaker in your opinion?
3) Undisciplined soldiers in units: I have to disagree with you here. Soldiers are just the same as they always were -blank slates. It's up to you to teach them to be professional. If there is a problem, its with their role models.
4) Redundant training: Usually if training is repeated over and over in an organization, its because personnel are not getting it, or the problem is very, very large.
5) Fat Soldiers: There is a process for this. That process is administered by a Commander with the advise of trained medical staff. I know its hard to accept your superiors might be looking at a bigger picture than you but guess what....that's why they are in charge. Shut up and color.
6) Awards and School Slots: Perhaps your superiors are looking, once again, at a bigger picture than you. Maybe maturity, professionalism, discipline, are just as important as how fast you can run.
1) Politicians trying to make the military politically correct --I would be really interested in what you mean by this statement, as 'PC' has become somewhat of a catch-all for a variety of things. Are you talking about not being able to rape or sexually harass female personnel? Perhaps not being able to openly discriminate against or disparage different races? Is it the fact that you have to work nicely alongside people that don't look like you? Exactly what 'PC' elements are you referring to. Do tell...
2) Weakened BCT? What parts are weaker in your opinion?
3) Undisciplined soldiers in units: I have to disagree with you here. Soldiers are just the same as they always were -blank slates. It's up to you to teach them to be professional. If there is a problem, its with their role models.
4) Redundant training: Usually if training is repeated over and over in an organization, its because personnel are not getting it, or the problem is very, very large.
5) Fat Soldiers: There is a process for this. That process is administered by a Commander with the advise of trained medical staff. I know its hard to accept your superiors might be looking at a bigger picture than you but guess what....that's why they are in charge. Shut up and color.
6) Awards and School Slots: Perhaps your superiors are looking, once again, at a bigger picture than you. Maybe maturity, professionalism, discipline, are just as important as how fast you can run.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Well, you completely missed all my points.
1) When I say PC, no I do not mean discriminating against others because they are different. I mean the military should not be changing its standards or lowering them to meet the standards of the people joining the military now... People join the military, the military doesn't join people.
2) Weakened basic training, as in they are not focusing on training the soldiers to go to combat. Like it or not, we are the military and our first job is to deploy and fight for our country if necessary. However, the way soldiers are treated in their respective basic training's, they get cell phones now, can't swear at soldiers, can't "smoke" a soldier for poor performance. If half of the soldiers going through BCT right now deploy, they wouldn't have a clue what to do.
3) Army Times and active-duty units do not disagree with me. You can Google the article on Army times where units complained about getting undisciplined soldiers fresh out of basic training.
4) Doesn't take a genius to understand the 3rd Grade level training the Army forces on us and if it was that big of a problem we would know via the Grapevine.
5) First, the shut up and color comment is a little unprofessional for a person of your rank. Second, tell me how much since it makes to kick out a Soldier who has all their training is completed shows up every drill, but fails 1 PT test... But the fat people who have not passed a PT test since they have been in or height and weight get to stay.
6) How is it fair to give a 2LT fresh out of ROTC a school slot, when the enlisted service member has been waiting for two years? And according to regulations, awards are not supposed to be rank specific. Yet, you'll have a 2LT and SPC perform the same exact task, but the 2LT will get a Bronze Star or Army Commendation Medal while the SPC will be lucky if they receive a Certificate of Achievement.
1) When I say PC, no I do not mean discriminating against others because they are different. I mean the military should not be changing its standards or lowering them to meet the standards of the people joining the military now... People join the military, the military doesn't join people.
2) Weakened basic training, as in they are not focusing on training the soldiers to go to combat. Like it or not, we are the military and our first job is to deploy and fight for our country if necessary. However, the way soldiers are treated in their respective basic training's, they get cell phones now, can't swear at soldiers, can't "smoke" a soldier for poor performance. If half of the soldiers going through BCT right now deploy, they wouldn't have a clue what to do.
3) Army Times and active-duty units do not disagree with me. You can Google the article on Army times where units complained about getting undisciplined soldiers fresh out of basic training.
4) Doesn't take a genius to understand the 3rd Grade level training the Army forces on us and if it was that big of a problem we would know via the Grapevine.
5) First, the shut up and color comment is a little unprofessional for a person of your rank. Second, tell me how much since it makes to kick out a Soldier who has all their training is completed shows up every drill, but fails 1 PT test... But the fat people who have not passed a PT test since they have been in or height and weight get to stay.
6) How is it fair to give a 2LT fresh out of ROTC a school slot, when the enlisted service member has been waiting for two years? And according to regulations, awards are not supposed to be rank specific. Yet, you'll have a 2LT and SPC perform the same exact task, but the 2LT will get a Bronze Star or Army Commendation Medal while the SPC will be lucky if they receive a Certificate of Achievement.
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SSG(P) (Join to see) You are correct on several of your points. I find this goes in cycles with the military.
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PC has to rank up there at the top as issues go. Jr enlisted need to remember that NCO's are thier first line supervisors, not their co-workers. Officers should remember that the word office is in officer. They need to handle that Admin dedication. NCO's need to work together and make sure that they are training their subordinates to achieve success. But I think the number one issue is ALL service members, officer, NCO, and EM need to stop stabbing eachother in the back. It happens WAY too much.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
For sure, the bottom line is teamwork, watch each others backs, work for the same thing and never forget who is in charge but remember respect earns respect.
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I agree with LTC Greg Henning that it goes in cycles. The issues we face today are similar to issues of the past. The Army as an organization works continuously to rectify the issues. I will take some of your points and counter them with what I know.
1. "Such as weakened BCT, with units complaining about undisciplined soldiers coming to their units."
The Infantry OSUT is being extended from 14 to 22 weeks. Drill Sergeants are going back to AIT units. Is this the cure? I can't say for sure but I do see it helping. When I enlisted in 1999 there were Soldiers coming in who were overweight, undisciplined, and were not fit for service in my opinion. Additionally, there were Soldiers who had been skating by for years and just there to be there. Sound familiar?
2. "Forced redundant training that only needs down maybe once every few years."
Change is coming and is already here
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/04/24/the-army-just-dumped-a-bunch-of-mandatory-training-to-free-up-soldiers-time/
3. "Also, soldiers who have been overweight since they joined, but are allowed to stay even though they don't meet fitness standards and the soldiers that skate by until they get promoted while the good soldiers are overlooked."
This isn't an Army problem, this is a leadership failure on multiple levels. I have rarely seen good Soldiers overlooked for promotion. I say overlooked as being recommended for promotion and such. There are "Good" Soldiers that are not promoted due to points but they always have some reason while they are unable to: enroll in college, raise their PT score, etc. And then they blame the system for not being promoted (ie. points too high, MOS overstrength, etc.)
4. "Finally, the standards regarding Officers, NCOs, and Jr Enlisted in regards to awards and school slots."
I'm not certain what your are getting at here. Awards are merit based. What I continuously see and here are young Soldiers not understanding what the qualifications are for certain awards and have poor expectation management. I see the same with school slots. The process isn't understood or they are uniformed.
Good points you bring up here. I hope I was able to give a little insight as to how the Army as an organization is working to find solutions. These things don't happen overnight. The new generation of Soldiers is no worse than my generation of Soldiers and those before me. The issues of today were the issues of the past. We adapt and overcome in the end.
1. "Such as weakened BCT, with units complaining about undisciplined soldiers coming to their units."
The Infantry OSUT is being extended from 14 to 22 weeks. Drill Sergeants are going back to AIT units. Is this the cure? I can't say for sure but I do see it helping. When I enlisted in 1999 there were Soldiers coming in who were overweight, undisciplined, and were not fit for service in my opinion. Additionally, there were Soldiers who had been skating by for years and just there to be there. Sound familiar?
2. "Forced redundant training that only needs down maybe once every few years."
Change is coming and is already here
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/04/24/the-army-just-dumped-a-bunch-of-mandatory-training-to-free-up-soldiers-time/
3. "Also, soldiers who have been overweight since they joined, but are allowed to stay even though they don't meet fitness standards and the soldiers that skate by until they get promoted while the good soldiers are overlooked."
This isn't an Army problem, this is a leadership failure on multiple levels. I have rarely seen good Soldiers overlooked for promotion. I say overlooked as being recommended for promotion and such. There are "Good" Soldiers that are not promoted due to points but they always have some reason while they are unable to: enroll in college, raise their PT score, etc. And then they blame the system for not being promoted (ie. points too high, MOS overstrength, etc.)
4. "Finally, the standards regarding Officers, NCOs, and Jr Enlisted in regards to awards and school slots."
I'm not certain what your are getting at here. Awards are merit based. What I continuously see and here are young Soldiers not understanding what the qualifications are for certain awards and have poor expectation management. I see the same with school slots. The process isn't understood or they are uniformed.
Good points you bring up here. I hope I was able to give a little insight as to how the Army as an organization is working to find solutions. These things don't happen overnight. The new generation of Soldiers is no worse than my generation of Soldiers and those before me. The issues of today were the issues of the past. We adapt and overcome in the end.
The Army just dumped a bunch of mandatory training to free up soldiers’ time
The Army is ditching several online training programs in a wider effort to reduce administrative burden on units.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - Is it absolutely true they didn't deserve those awards? What was the scope of their duties? What was their impact to the unit? Did they have positive impact outside of their unit (BDE/DIV/Corps etc)? What were their responsibilities both to the unit and outside of the unit (if any)? Were they responsible for any special projects or coming up with new tracking mechanisms, SOP's, TTP's. What was the quantifiable data included in the award that was not justified? What were their additional duties during the award period? Were there any achievements outside of their scope of duty? All of these things would be observed by the RECOMMENDER of the award. There is an old saying that everyone thinks they are doing more than the next person. All I am saying is while I can see how you feel from the outside looking in, unless you have solid irrefutable evidence they did not deserve the award it is a stretch to say they didn't deserve it. Can it happen? Sure it can. However, the write up of the award would have to justify the award and while it could be "fluff" you can never know for sure unless you had all of the knowledge and info that the recommender had.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - In that case I blame the leadership. We are trusted to be good stewards of awards for the commander(s) making the decision(s). Like I said I know it has and continues to happen. However, I do know folks who received awards that were justified and others disagreed because they had no idea what the individual had done to receive the award. I train my Soldiers and NCOs to think in the fashion laid out in my previous comment to ensure Soldiers get recommended for the proper award. A big problem now is a lot of Soldiers think they deserve an award much higher than they really do. ARCOMs used to be a big deal and now every thinks that it is the baseline. Take this as an example. A company commander in Afghanistan received an ARCOM as an end of tour award (actually happened), what do the PLs/PSGs etc deserve? These are tough questions we as leaders have to answer without feelings involved and without but so and so got this award. I am in Afghanistan now and will have to make tough decisions in the coming months for the awards that my Soldiers earn while they are here. Great discussion and my comment was not to be argumentative but to see things from another vantage point. Stay well.
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It's been a while since I was in Cody, but things haven't a whole lot since I left the military, you still have your slackers that get the perks ahead of the working individuals, and people promoted that don't deserve it.
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