What is the purpose of the "no profanity" policy in WLC?

I had a MSgt once that if he had me at attention and was yelling at me, I knew I was fine. If he called me in his office, sat me down, and talked normal, my sh!t was weak.

As a Senior Small Group Leader for BLC (formerly WLC, formerly PLDC, Etc.) I do not curse when interacting with students or professionally with my SGLs, Peers, or Superiors. However I do in a none professional environment. I have noticed that I do not do this consiously. I guess it is just a switch that gets flipped depending what situation I find myself.

MSgt John Carroll - Oh, oh, no using "fecal."

SFC James Liedtka Sure there is a switch. Nobody with any sense goes to church and drops F Bombs like you do in the barracks. It is part of being an adult. I think you setting the example in BLC is exactly how it should work. It is how my instructors did it and I respected them for it.

SFC Don Ward apparently my tongue-in-cheek humor was lost on you. That being said, you'll be hard pressed to find a leader in the Infantry who doesn't cuss on occasion.

CPT Mitch Goenner find anyone in the infantry that doesn't cuss routinely. Not that I hung around officers much while in the infantry, I can tell you on the NCO level down to PV1 fuck is just about every other word, or at least was while I was in.

And these comments bring up another great point: language (cussing) depends on your audience and situation. Even my Chaplain slipped out a few cuss words in Afghanistan during a firefight in one of our bases.

MAJ (Join to see) - You said it - on occasion. There are two really good ways to make a point at times, one being the appropriate profane dressing down. The other being very still and quiet and angry. I've seen times I would rather be cussed than have that quiet, disappointed voice directed at me.

It IS against regulation, and it IS in writing. Profanity is a violation of the UCMJ, Article 134, Indecent Language. It has been for a few decades now..

We all, well let me rephrase that, a lot of us have dropped the F-bomb like it's going out of style but one needs to be able to flip that mental switch to know when and when not to use it. When conducting briefings and as an instructor profanity was never used. Most briefings were with senior enlisted or even Area Commanders which in my case were O-6 and above. As an instructor I was providing training to our Foreign National counter parts so when conducting this training it was extremely important to remain 110% professional. Of course when in the field we flipped that switch and went back to field language but once we picked up the radio or stepped off of the boat, that switch was flipped back on. It is always good to get into a habit as if you were speaking with a high level civilian where profanity can get you fired or lose a contract quicker than anything else.

Believe it or not it contributes to a hostile environment in the workplace. I do my best not to use profanity while I engage my Soldiers. I am getting ready to retire in a few years and interacting with civilians in my last unit I can tell you it is a complaint waiting to happen. You can't assume that everyone that is in the military or works for the military was raised familiar to that language or appreciates the use of it in conversations. The commander has the authority to put an end to that conduct. Look at AR 600-20 under paragraph 7-6. Under Hostile environment "A hostile environment occurs when Soldiers or civilians are subjected to offensive, unwanted and unsolicited comments, or behaviors of a sexual nature. If these behaviors unreasonably interfere with their performance, regardless of whether the harasser and the victim are in the same workplace, then the environment is classified as hostile". I can't tell you that I don't use profanity but the use of it makes me look unprofessional in front of my peer and subordinates. Remember when you leave the Army or even interacting on an off post establishments the rules still apply. You still a Soldier 24/7 and until you retire you have to play by the rules. If an Infantryman can minimize or eliminate the use of profanity while at work trust and believe each one of you can do the same.

"Hostile Enviroment?" , tell that to my BIA's!- Thanks SSg DeWease (RIP) for bringing me through my first serious contact and SSg Moss (DI) for trying to get me up to speed. "Hostile Enviroment"- go figure.

There is nothing wrong with conducting yourselves as professional at all times, not just during a training event. I am saddened by the number of CSM and officers that cannot go a sentence without an f bomb

Indeed SSG Winstead! Well said.

This is a question that could be aurgued ad nauseum, but the topic focuses on time and place. You don't show up to church chock-full of cuss words. I think it is fair to say that showing up at a leadership class would be somewhat similar....it has it's time and place. Think about it...if you can't stop cussing, you have a bit of a problem. Cussing was rampant during my time in service (1975-1978), and it took me quite a while to tone it down after I got out. Get me pissed off or excited though, and the bad words fly for a spell, almost involuntarily. It's not so much to be rude and crude, it just seems to put more emphasis on the word, or combines it with the emotion of the moment. To each his/her own though. If you are on top of your game in the field, I wounld'nt jump your butt about letting off a few rounds of HE F's and S's.

And now we have Television personalities (I will not call them Journalists, because I grew up with Cronkite et al.) using the worst language and insults and getting by with it.

No the NBC NCO. There were several people that were from San B area.

I had PLDC at Ft Lewis in 1987, we-didn't have that issue, they asked us not to swear during class but it wasn't banned. But yes, they did have at least 1 block of instruction about communication, they touched on the act of getting your point across without swearing.
But it did work to get the point across when you went full on slavering and swearing at some young dumb ass kid who thinks he's the BMOC.

SFC Merino, in 11th ACR we are now receiving more actual Army wide awards, AAM's/ARCOM etc for doing awesome things. They had some censing sessions and apparently listened to people calling hambys a worthless award.

I did PLDC in 92 on Camp Jackson ROK. My instructors dropped F bombs as much, if not more, than I did. My Drill Sergeants in basic training gave the foundation of how to properly and effectively incorporate cussing into my communication repertoire. I do, however, also know when to "flip the switch" as some say.

So what are type are you?
Are you the type that likes to use foul and or abusive language while in uniform and on duty because you feel that it makes your point or you think it doesn't matter and its neither professional or unprofessional and that its part of the military culture and it's normal.
-OR- Do you think its unprofessional and that it hurts your credibility?
Answer:
No one is more professional than I. I am a noncommissioned officer, a leader of Soldiers. As a noncommissioned officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of noncommissioned officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the military service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.

Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind—accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a noncommissioned officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my Soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my Soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.

Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my Soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, noncommissioned officers, leaders!

Profanity, foul and abusive language is unprofessional both the Constitution and UCMJ article134 support this. This is part our guaranteed protections under the Constitution.
That's so while on duty and in uniform we don't have to be subjected to or forced to listen to offensive and or foul and abusive language.

Just remember for those of you who use this type of language, your just bringing discredit upon yourself your Unit and the U.S. Military because you choose not to be a professional and it has nothing to do with 240 years of culture or suppression of your rights because thats what is NOT happening.
The Constitution and UCMJ article 134 has already proven that it is NOT a violation of any kind the to the Oath we took to uphold, defend, and protect the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

"2. when you don't use that kind of language you as a leader will be seen as a better person and as a professional soldier."
Now, i'm just a specialist but also a team leader and going to board soon. If when i was a private, i had some team leader who didn't curse or told me i shouldn't due to professionalism, i'd be more worried than in awe of what a good example he was setting. And i know more than not would agree with that. Just because you feel that in setting that example you are doing the right thing, it doesn't mean those who don't hold that belief are doing the wrong thing

Oh man, have you drank the cool-aid

SSG Byron Hewett - Umm, forgive my apparent ignorance but where in the Constitution is there anything about profanity. See, the funny thing is, I just got done reading the Constitution again, just because I thought maybe there was an amendment to it I missed. I didn't. Not a single word about use of profane, vulgar or abusive language anywhere. I've been out of service for a while so I looked up article 134 of the UCMJ:

UCMJ ARTICLE 134
"Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court."

To say that this is an article against profanity is an interpretation and an extreme one at that, not an actual article against profanity. It is a catchall article, nothing more. I don't think you are going to find a soldier facing a general, special or summary court-martial for dropping the F-bomb.

Now, lets talk about Army Values. Integrity is the 6th Army Value. When trying to make points about any subject, especially as a leader, do not tell untruths and use articles that support your statement under extreme interpretation. It really does not help your side of the debate when you get fact checked and found to be incorrect or even possibly deceptive, especially if it is with someone that does not know you. This can be even more damaging to your professionalism than dropping the evil F-Bomb. It tends to impact that credibility thing you cited at the beginning of your post.

All that being said, a soldier is not unprofessional because he uses some profanity in his dialog. Some of the NCOs I had the most respect for during my 13 years of service used profanity. One does however have to have a switch and know when to turn it off. Working in the motor pool, out in the field, or whatever, I do not see an issue. Dropping the F-Bomb while briefing the colonel on the past weeks operations, probably not a good idea. This all just comes with common sense.

I used profanity frequently in my daily operations and apparently my leadership style was thought highly of since I have the NCOERs to show it and my soldiers had frequently shown they appreciated my leadership. Even though I only reached E-5 (because of the MOS and cut-off points always being maxed in addition to some family issues I had to deal with), I lead teams, squads and was even the acting plt sgt for an extended period of time. In all of those years and troops I only had one complaint about my language and she later came and apologized for making a complaint when she realized my "cussing" amplified and accentuated what I was trying to get across to her. She quit being a whiner and became a hard charging troop after that. I made and still make no excuses for my leadership style as it was shown to be effective and professional BUT I do recognize that there is a time and a place and the switch needs to be used. To say it is unprofessional for an NCO to "cuss" at any time is purely a PC thing. Military service is not an office space environment and PC concepts do not belong in the military, a profession that contradicts PC at its most core purposes.

SFC Michael Hasbun - Thanks for the intel. So UCMJ violated the constitution. This is a sad day for me. Time to ETS.

UCMJ has NEVER been a constitutional body.

He meant the U.S. Constitution.

It has always been understood that when you put up your hand and take that oath that are certain Constitutional rights you are willingly giving up during your tour of duty. Freedom of speech is one of those primary rights.

Well here is what General George Patton thought of the "culture" of profanity: "When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight it's way out of a piss-soaked paper bag."

Do you really propose to compare Patton to Washington? I laugh at your folly!

MSG Nathan Ellison - Patton also slapped and cussed out a soldier he thought was gold bricking in the field hospital who was actually suffering from malaria, and when Patton was confronted by the Doctor, Patton went back to that soldier and profusely apologized and cried while he was doing so.
Patton spoke and acted in a way that really made himself look bad. Patton also new this and changed the way and how he handled things but a little too late.

"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight it's way out of a piss-soaked paper bag."

General George Patton

Patton makes my point for me. Why does he give it double dirty? Because profanity was NOT the norm and guys would pay attention. Again, soldiers today hear worse from their parents and school teachers. Want them to pay attention? Give them something out of the ordinary, just like Patton. Except out of the ordinary today means without profanity.

Interesting point LTC. I as an NCO in the Marine Corps was lead to believe it was an effective tool for disciplining troops and then afterwards when I joined the Army I was then told it was unprofessional to do so. I even got pulled into the CO's office a couple times for it and was never told anything more than it was considered unprofessional.

As an Army BCT Commander visiting Marine Boot I was first introduced to the philosophy of not using profanity. That was back in 1997. Funny how times change!

Everyone understands there is a time and place for everything. Like I'm not going to curse in front of my 10 year old brother. But NCOES is not training you to talk to the cheif of staffs wife or to my ten year old brother. Maybe this is only still prominent in the Infantry nowadays but nothing gets a bunch of soldiers moving faster than an NCO raising his voice higher than talking level and throwing a few profanities in there.

SSG Timothy Sharpe Subjective Assessment. I rarely raise my voice, and have little issue getting folks to move quickly. The old saying "does yelling make people listen better?" spring to mind.

But back to your comment regarding "NCOES is not training you to talk to the chief of staffs wife or to my ten year old brother." Sure it is. Bootcamp is. It's all building blocks. Fundamentals.

In the Lombardi quote "Gentlemen, this is a football" everything is built on basics. NCOES is exactly what teaches you to speak to the wife of the Chief of Staff. It's what teaches you to speak to the President or the Pope, or whomever. It's all abut the little things. Do the little things right, and you do the big things right. Do the little things wrong, and the big things will look like a cluster.

I'm not saying there isn't a time for "choice words" or profanity. I swear. Everyone has dropped a couch on their foot or found a spider in the bathroom at 3am. But, in a professional learning environment, such as WLC, swearing is not appropriate, and as such it should not be used. Because it is inappropriate for the venue, it is unprofessional. In a more appropriate venue, like a bar, telling war-stories... we could call it "professional" however we're no longer in a professional environment, so it still isn't professional behavior.

So it is either unprofessional behavior, or it is NOT professional behavior. That leaves the question of "When is profanity Professional behavior?" as opposed to when it is appropriate. There are plenty of times when it is appropriate. But professional and appropriate do not equate. Since we are first and foremost Professionals:

Army NCO Creed: "No one is more professional than I..."

That makes swearing taboo.

"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight it's way out of a piss-soaked paper bag."

-General George Patton

CPT Toby Forbes - Indecent ones, as determined by the Commander who is using the article in question. Commanders discretion goes a long way..

Hahaha SpC Perrien, leave it to the Spec 4 to find the loop hole.

SPC Nathaniel Reynolds - There's no loophole. The WLC Commandant created a policy against it. Most MACOM's have published policies about it. Between that and the UCMJ, it's pretty lock tight..

There are a PLETHORA of things we do that are in violation of the UCMJ. With that being said, are we going to point out each one and hold everyone accountable???

I have nary a problem with that sir, nary a problem on both counts and I have been known to drop some intrinsic prose from time to time.

I was the Asst S1 for OCS from 2005-2013. Your name looks familiar. I believe you were a Cpt when I first got there in 2005. The Officers and NCOs at OCS did a great job for the OCS Candidates and they all have their Sr Trainers and Trainers to thank for their successful careers.

You are most kind, SFC Ronald Burris, and I'd like to say that we served together, but we did not! I retired from the USAR in MAY98, and I was a Tac Officer as a lieutenant in the mid to late seventies!

LTC Stephen C. - HI Sir,
My deepest apologies. Thank you for being kind responding and letting me know. Thank you so much for your Service. Ron

No need for apologies, SFC Ronald Burris! I'm just glad to be recognized at all, even if erroneously! I extend my thanks to you for your service as well!

Agree 100%

Yes Sir, I recall being told we couldn't sing certain cadences during Brigade runs because they mentioned killing...I was Infantry, that's what we're trained to do. Of course we hear the command element full of non-infantry singing left, right, left, right KILL! Yep wussification of a great fighting force.

Churchill said it best. When your aim is to kill a man, it costs you nothing to be polite.

That is what they say- but underestimate me and mines at your own peril. I think it is just another reason to poo-poo on others.