Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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For those who chose not serve and stuck around to face the music. I disagree, but respect.
For those that avoided service, but used the rules to do it. I don't like it, but harbor no ill will. "The rules is the rules."
For those that ran, they made a choice and they should live by their choice. I don't like them standing on American soil, breathing American Air, and enjoying American freedom. I forgive, but do not forget. I don't go looking for a pissing contest, but If they bring up the subject, I'm not going to pussyfoot around it. As far as I am concerned, they are not to be trusted.
For those that avoided service, but used the rules to do it. I don't like it, but harbor no ill will. "The rules is the rules."
For those that ran, they made a choice and they should live by their choice. I don't like them standing on American soil, breathing American Air, and enjoying American freedom. I forgive, but do not forget. I don't go looking for a pissing contest, but If they bring up the subject, I'm not going to pussyfoot around it. As far as I am concerned, they are not to be trusted.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
Maj John Bell -
To All You Canadians Out There:
"Please Accept Our Apologies,
WE Don't Like Him-- EITHER"
To All You Canadians Out There:
"Please Accept Our Apologies,
WE Don't Like Him-- EITHER"
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
1SG Mark Rodgers -
I COULD Be Wrong, But I THINK There's A Difference
Between Having A Deferment For A Breathing Issue And Having Daddy's
Friendly Doctor Whom Leases Space For His Practice In Daddy's Building
And Phonies Up A Disability Form Saying: "Donald J. Trump Cannot Serve,
He Has Bone Spurs On His Feet"-- And His Thump Up Hizaz.
I COULD Be Wrong, But I THINK There's A Difference
Between Having A Deferment For A Breathing Issue And Having Daddy's
Friendly Doctor Whom Leases Space For His Practice In Daddy's Building
And Phonies Up A Disability Form Saying: "Donald J. Trump Cannot Serve,
He Has Bone Spurs On His Feet"-- And His Thump Up Hizaz.
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COL Randall C.
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - Rick, you're going off the rails again. Your trolling/personal attack comments have been removed.
Keep it respectful - as a reminder, you can advocate for your position forcefully and demean the other's position as much as you like. However, personal attacks are not allowed.
If you need a refresher of what the primary Community Standards for discourse between RP Members is, you can read them at https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/enforcement-of-rallypoint-community-standards-2020-03-13-10-21-35 and https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/rallypoint-answers-and-discussion-conduct-2020-03-13-10-21-35
Keep it respectful - as a reminder, you can advocate for your position forcefully and demean the other's position as much as you like. However, personal attacks are not allowed.
If you need a refresher of what the primary Community Standards for discourse between RP Members is, you can read them at https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/enforcement-of-rallypoint-community-standards-2020-03-13-10-21-35 and https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/rallypoint-answers-and-discussion-conduct-2020-03-13-10-21-35
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
COL Randall C. -
I Was Just Coming Back To leave The Major A Note
Saying "I'm Just Going To Ignore You Again & Let You Talk To Yourself"
But Now I Don't Have To Do That. Thanks For Helping Me Put An End To It,.
I Was Just Coming Back To leave The Major A Note
Saying "I'm Just Going To Ignore You Again & Let You Talk To Yourself"
But Now I Don't Have To Do That. Thanks For Helping Me Put An End To It,.
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I agree with you that I want men and women serving that are joining of their own free will. I do not agree with you that a draft is slavery. I volunteered and knew that I would be going to Vietnam. I never gave any thought to draft dodgers. What bothered me were the scum bags that greeted me at LAX when I returned from Vietnam. They tried to block my way, asked me how many babies had I killed, told me to repent for my sins, etc. I was in uniform flying military standby. One of the hardest things that I have ever done, was not confronting these scum bags.
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SP6 Greg Jetter
agree 100% , in 72 the war was ending , i was returning home from basic training in uniform , got harassed the same at the airport. These assholes are now running the government .
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
1SG Mark Rodgers -
...."Can you walk away when drafted? No."
But I'd Suggest He Learn The Canadian National Anthem. (;-)+
...."Can you walk away when drafted? No."
But I'd Suggest He Learn The Canadian National Anthem. (;-)+
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As a Viet Nam era enlistee I chose to enlist. I didn't run off to Canada. I am admittedly more upset with folks like Kerry & McCain that embellished their own record, profited from it and have become national embarrassments. Lack of information is the biggest enemy. If the reasons were legitimate I have no problems with deferments.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
CSM Thomas Ray -
DID PRESIDENT BIDEN GET ANY DRAFT DEFERMENTS?
~~
Prior to the election, rumors began to circulate on Facebook that Biden had deferred the draft on a number of occasions during the Vietnam War. The post went viral in part because conservatives saw it as a way to rebut Democratic claims that former President Trump had dodged the draft. Biden, who was born in 1942, could have been drafted into service in the war.
Although he was the right age, Biden never served because he received a number of deferrals from the draft during his time in college. He first received deferrals while an undergraduate at the University of Delaware, and later during his time in law school at Syracuse University. Biden eventually received a medical exam in 1968, after which he received a "1-Y" classification.
That classification meant that Biden could not be drafted unless there was a national emergency. In 2008, when Biden was seeking the presidency in the Democratic primary, he released his selective service record to the press. At the time, his records said that he was disqualified from service because of asthma that he suffered from as a teenager.
~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now For TRUMP~~~~~~~~~~
Although neither Biden or Trump personally served in the military the issue of respect for the military dominated a large chunk of the 2020 presidential campaign. The issue stemmed largely from comments that Trump had reportedly made that many felt were disrespectful to the millitary. In reporting from The Atlantic, Trump said that those who died in the military were "losers" and "suckers."
The Biden campaign used those comments to suggest that Trump didn't have the respect for military service that was necessary to serve as commander in chief. It was just one of many issues that were raised over the course of a long and brutal campaign, and it's unclear if any one issue, including the coronavirus pandemic, proved to be decisive in Trump's ultimate defeat in November. Still, his comments about the military probably didn't help him.
DID PRESIDENT BIDEN GET ANY DRAFT DEFERMENTS?
~~
Prior to the election, rumors began to circulate on Facebook that Biden had deferred the draft on a number of occasions during the Vietnam War. The post went viral in part because conservatives saw it as a way to rebut Democratic claims that former President Trump had dodged the draft. Biden, who was born in 1942, could have been drafted into service in the war.
Although he was the right age, Biden never served because he received a number of deferrals from the draft during his time in college. He first received deferrals while an undergraduate at the University of Delaware, and later during his time in law school at Syracuse University. Biden eventually received a medical exam in 1968, after which he received a "1-Y" classification.
That classification meant that Biden could not be drafted unless there was a national emergency. In 2008, when Biden was seeking the presidency in the Democratic primary, he released his selective service record to the press. At the time, his records said that he was disqualified from service because of asthma that he suffered from as a teenager.
~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now For TRUMP~~~~~~~~~~
Although neither Biden or Trump personally served in the military the issue of respect for the military dominated a large chunk of the 2020 presidential campaign. The issue stemmed largely from comments that Trump had reportedly made that many felt were disrespectful to the millitary. In reporting from The Atlantic, Trump said that those who died in the military were "losers" and "suckers."
The Biden campaign used those comments to suggest that Trump didn't have the respect for military service that was necessary to serve as commander in chief. It was just one of many issues that were raised over the course of a long and brutal campaign, and it's unclear if any one issue, including the coronavirus pandemic, proved to be decisive in Trump's ultimate defeat in November. Still, his comments about the military probably didn't help him.
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CPL Joe Brown
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - I concur about cadet bone spurs...it was a cheap shot below the belt to those of us that had to go.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
CPL Joe Brown -
I Wasn't DRAFTED ~~ I ENLISTED On My 17th Birthday 06/29/1961 ~
~One Of My Best Decision Ever~ Changed My Life For The Better, And Were It NOT For The PAY, It Would Have Been My Career Of Choice. My TOP Pay ~ Overseas In South Korea ~ $173.00 Per MONTH. ~ Even The Counter Help At McDonald's Pays 3 - 4 Times As Much ~~ I've Even Known, The Ranks From E-5 On Down, With Families ~~ On Social Services For Enough To Survive On.~~ Just "Not My Cup Of Tea"...
I Wasn't DRAFTED ~~ I ENLISTED On My 17th Birthday 06/29/1961 ~
~One Of My Best Decision Ever~ Changed My Life For The Better, And Were It NOT For The PAY, It Would Have Been My Career Of Choice. My TOP Pay ~ Overseas In South Korea ~ $173.00 Per MONTH. ~ Even The Counter Help At McDonald's Pays 3 - 4 Times As Much ~~ I've Even Known, The Ranks From E-5 On Down, With Families ~~ On Social Services For Enough To Survive On.~~ Just "Not My Cup Of Tea"...
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SSG Elbert Thomas
CPL Joe Brown - Then you must of felt the same way about Niden. How could he play football all of his teenage years and be a lifeguard and have asthma? Did you ever have heel spurs? I have when we were still running in boots, it's painful and took forever to heal. Face it, you're a democrat and nothing Trump could do would make you happy. He could cure cancer, but you would be mad because he put drug makers out of work.
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I respect your comments but not necessarily agree with all of them.
1.) In a time of war or national crisis we as a nation do not have the luxury to rely on volunteers to serve and man the rank and file. It is necessary and in the best interest of the nation to instill a draft if and only if we are at war and cannot fill the ranks. I do not see it as involuntary servitude or slavery...this is not comparison to slavery...PERIOD. Slavery as we know it in America was a dark stain and to compare the Draft to slavery is not a valid comparison...IMHO. I see service either voluntary or through draft as a payback to those that have gone before us for the freedoms we hold so precious.
2.) I agree with the educational deferments and other legal rules. Rules are rules. People can say that was a rich mans game...I can tell you it wasn't. My uncle (from a rural farm) went to school on a shoestring budget working several jobs to get through during the draft because he wanted an education...he got a deferment because of his grades. I can cite numerous other examples from my hometown.
3.) For those that ran, stirred up trouble with rallies, spit on our troops, etc and never served and avoided the draft for those reasons...hear me clearly...I HAVE NOTHING FOR THEM...somewhere there is a tree that is screaming because they absorbed the oxygen it produced. To pardon those was a bad move and another spit in the face of those who were drafted and served/died honorably.
4.) The difference between Trump and Clinton is that Clinton made friends with Russians...our enemies...Trump used education as a deferment.
Maj Kim Patterson
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Marton
SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ James Woods
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
SFC Shirley Whitfield
SMSgt Minister Gerald A. "Doc" Thomas
SFC (Join to see)
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
1.) In a time of war or national crisis we as a nation do not have the luxury to rely on volunteers to serve and man the rank and file. It is necessary and in the best interest of the nation to instill a draft if and only if we are at war and cannot fill the ranks. I do not see it as involuntary servitude or slavery...this is not comparison to slavery...PERIOD. Slavery as we know it in America was a dark stain and to compare the Draft to slavery is not a valid comparison...IMHO. I see service either voluntary or through draft as a payback to those that have gone before us for the freedoms we hold so precious.
2.) I agree with the educational deferments and other legal rules. Rules are rules. People can say that was a rich mans game...I can tell you it wasn't. My uncle (from a rural farm) went to school on a shoestring budget working several jobs to get through during the draft because he wanted an education...he got a deferment because of his grades. I can cite numerous other examples from my hometown.
3.) For those that ran, stirred up trouble with rallies, spit on our troops, etc and never served and avoided the draft for those reasons...hear me clearly...I HAVE NOTHING FOR THEM...somewhere there is a tree that is screaming because they absorbed the oxygen it produced. To pardon those was a bad move and another spit in the face of those who were drafted and served/died honorably.
4.) The difference between Trump and Clinton is that Clinton made friends with Russians...our enemies...Trump used education as a deferment.
Maj Kim Patterson
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Marton
SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ James Woods
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
SFC Shirley Whitfield
SMSgt Minister Gerald A. "Doc" Thomas
SFC (Join to see)
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
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SPC Michael Tierney
CSM John Mead - I would agree that "absolute powe"r can and often does lead to corruption and abuse. The countries you cited are good examples of dictatorial disasters. I might exclude Cuba, having been there a few years ago. I haven't seen any allegations of the Castro family controlling any money. Certainly they have been ruthless in controlling the country politically and have shown no interest in any sort of popular vote. But, like several of the countries you mention, they probably would have won any election that was offered.
We often assume that "popular" uprisings are concerted efforts by citizens to gain some form of Democratic representation. I may be wrong but my guess is that our CIA is instrumental in buying these protestors. In Cuba, the consulate is the largest US consulate in the world. Why would that be?
As for leaders trying to "line their pockets", we need only look at the inhabitant of the White House from 2016-2020. How did Don and his family do? Oh, Jared's financial acumen is so renowned that Saudi Arabia just plunked a couple billion into the investment firm. Well earned Jared. Couldn't have had anything to do with white washing the Kashoggi murderr or selling SA tons of military equipment for their phony war in the ME. And I doubt daddy Don was complicit in this. Not to mention that Don turned the presidency into his own fund raising machine. The only guy who is a more blatant thief is Putin.
As for SCOTUS, fear of retribution by Jesus is what drives their decisions, not the US Constitution. Maybe if a few Republicans (and no small number of Democrats)chose to live their lives like Jesus reputedly lived His, things would be different.
As for the theocracy track we are on, just be patient. Future candidates will make more and more efforts to make Christianity the official religion and public prayer a permitted activity. Letting that guy show off by praying at mid-field after his terms football game is another step in ignoring separation of church and state. Somewhere in the Federalist Society goals and objectives is a belief that the US should be a religious entity.
We often assume that "popular" uprisings are concerted efforts by citizens to gain some form of Democratic representation. I may be wrong but my guess is that our CIA is instrumental in buying these protestors. In Cuba, the consulate is the largest US consulate in the world. Why would that be?
As for leaders trying to "line their pockets", we need only look at the inhabitant of the White House from 2016-2020. How did Don and his family do? Oh, Jared's financial acumen is so renowned that Saudi Arabia just plunked a couple billion into the investment firm. Well earned Jared. Couldn't have had anything to do with white washing the Kashoggi murderr or selling SA tons of military equipment for their phony war in the ME. And I doubt daddy Don was complicit in this. Not to mention that Don turned the presidency into his own fund raising machine. The only guy who is a more blatant thief is Putin.
As for SCOTUS, fear of retribution by Jesus is what drives their decisions, not the US Constitution. Maybe if a few Republicans (and no small number of Democrats)chose to live their lives like Jesus reputedly lived His, things would be different.
As for the theocracy track we are on, just be patient. Future candidates will make more and more efforts to make Christianity the official religion and public prayer a permitted activity. Letting that guy show off by praying at mid-field after his terms football game is another step in ignoring separation of church and state. Somewhere in the Federalist Society goals and objectives is a belief that the US should be a religious entity.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
I volunteered for the draft and have no problems with it, but if it is ever reinstated I don't think that there should be no deferments whatsoever. I don't care if the individual is studing to be a priest, he should forgo that and serve his country until his tour is over than resume his studies. Obviously the blind and other severe medical impairments wouldn't be required to serve. Certainly no school deferments, and if they cower off to Canada, they should be labeled as a criminal and never allowed into the US ever or be jailed.
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Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth
SPC Lyle Montgomery I agree with one exception...even the handicapped can shuffle.papers in the rear echelon...no excuses!
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Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth
SPC Michael Tierney - If you are going to reference separation of church and state then use it properly please. It is to protect the religious freedoms of individuals
by not allowing the state to institute a one religion as the national religion. The first amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Ratified in 1791. The intent of the amendment was to have the government remove itself from anything that touched on humans relationship with God in order to keep religion pure. By pressing charges on a coach to pray at midfield on his own is a violation of his first amendment rights. Thomas Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association stated that "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." We nor anyone else is out to make Christianity the official religion of the US. Public prayer should be a permitted activity for those who want to participate. Muslims can pray however many times a day that their religion requires and anywhere. Seiks are able to now wear beards and turbans in uniform but Jewish mean cannot wear their cap in uniform outside the synagogue. Christians just want to practice our religion as others...equal across the board.
by not allowing the state to institute a one religion as the national religion. The first amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Ratified in 1791. The intent of the amendment was to have the government remove itself from anything that touched on humans relationship with God in order to keep religion pure. By pressing charges on a coach to pray at midfield on his own is a violation of his first amendment rights. Thomas Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association stated that "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." We nor anyone else is out to make Christianity the official religion of the US. Public prayer should be a permitted activity for those who want to participate. Muslims can pray however many times a day that their religion requires and anywhere. Seiks are able to now wear beards and turbans in uniform but Jewish mean cannot wear their cap in uniform outside the synagogue. Christians just want to practice our religion as others...equal across the board.
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I am not upset at those who dodge and Ditched. They would be liabilities in the battlefield. But, don’t dodge and ditch and criticize someone’s service who didn’t dodge or ditch saying something like “I wouldn’t get caught” or “Anyone can get a Purple Heart”.
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SFC Phillip Webb
CPT Bob Coleman - I agree with you sir. I am rated 90% disabled by the VA. I have bad knees and several spinal injuries. Most people can't tell I am disabled because I have trained myself to accept the pain and move on. I am too young (65) to accept sympathy for my injuries, and the disability would prevent me from being able to keep my job, which I perform regularly. (Deputy Sheriff) On some of my days off, or when I am not in the public view I sometimes have excruciating pain that I succumb to in an effort to make it pass so I can get to work on time. I have all the imaging and diagnosis from both VA and non VA doctors to support my condition. I also suffer from severe PTSD, anxiety and depression, also diagnosed by the VA doctors. The VA will not grant me the final 10% of disability rating for no reason that I can see; however, I accept it as a part of life (especially for Viet Nam Era vets). I know OEF/OIF vets that are collecting 100% for what they admit a lesser infirmities. I also know (even though I am not a physician, just a cop) that the VA will accept input from outside sources.
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SSG Gregg Mourizen
Not to be a smart ass, but "Anyone Can get the purple Heart" is missing the second half of the sentence...", but most don't live long enough to receive it."
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CPT Earl George
many here were not around when we had the draft. I had the chance to be a platoon leader that that had half draftees and have volunteers in it. (1972-1973)
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
CPT Earl George - Both were equally bad or good. I hate it when people diss the draftees. They were as good as the RA's
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"Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?"
This is really the only part of it that matters. I agree with you, it's legal so there's nothing to be said. ESPECIALLY by anyone who isn't old enough to have had to worry about being drafted. The generation or two or three since the draft ended have become the kings and queens of shortcuts and dodging. They have absolutely NO room to talk about someone who used legal avenues to not be drafted. And given Bill Clinton's draft avoidance, democrats can't say crap about it.
Fun side note, in Dec 1969-Jan 1970, when the USSR was aiding the NVA in their war against the US, Bill Clinton was in Moscow making friends.
This is really the only part of it that matters. I agree with you, it's legal so there's nothing to be said. ESPECIALLY by anyone who isn't old enough to have had to worry about being drafted. The generation or two or three since the draft ended have become the kings and queens of shortcuts and dodging. They have absolutely NO room to talk about someone who used legal avenues to not be drafted. And given Bill Clinton's draft avoidance, democrats can't say crap about it.
Fun side note, in Dec 1969-Jan 1970, when the USSR was aiding the NVA in their war against the US, Bill Clinton was in Moscow making friends.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
Sgt. verify to see While I was fighting in the jungles if Nam a couple of cowards from my hometown went to Canada to avoid the draft and that lousy SOB Carter pardoned the cowards. I will never pardon Carter for that but He will not go down as the worst president. That is a battle between that idiot Biden and the racist, Oboma
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SPC Michael Tierney
I don't think anyone said," wasn't Bill Clinton a great guy". I think the question referred in large part to Don Trump's phony bone spurs. I was drafted in 1967, before the lottery, and knew my MOS was 11B. I was 20 so what did I know? Don was clever as he used his father's renter, an orthopedic Dr, to diagnose bone spurs. I knew guys in my city that used hay fever as an excuse. There father's were doctors so ir was very easy. One of these guys was actually bragging about it after Don 's bone spurs became an issue. It was flat out draft dodging, just like Clinton and plenty of other clowns. Don claimed his "personal" Viet Nam was avoiding STDs.
I have more respect for the guys that went to Canada. At least they had the fortitude to protest the war. We all should have gone to Canada. Stupid war with no justification.
I did like the GI Bill benefits though.
I have more respect for the guys that went to Canada. At least they had the fortitude to protest the war. We all should have gone to Canada. Stupid war with no justification.
I did like the GI Bill benefits though.
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Capt Edward Egan
SPC Michael Tierney - Well, you were drafted. Fine. But why didn't you volunteer? Service was a Duty of male citizens of age.
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SPC Michael Tierney
Capt Edward Egan - I no more wanted to spend three years in the military than I wanted to spend three years being poor in another occupation. Everyone I knew said I should join the Reserves or the Guard but I didn't want that six year commitment either. I could have gone the hay fever/bone spurs route too. My father had friends who were physicians.
However, I liked the Army and, had I not been shot in 1968, I might have re-enlisted to go to Ranger school. "Might" is the key word. I am a terrible swimmer sam I might have washed (no pun intended) out.
Instead I used my voc rehab benefits to get my undergrad and MBA degrees and went on to enjoy a terrific civilian career.
However, I liked the Army and, had I not been shot in 1968, I might have re-enlisted to go to Ranger school. "Might" is the key word. I am a terrible swimmer sam I might have washed (no pun intended) out.
Instead I used my voc rehab benefits to get my undergrad and MBA degrees and went on to enjoy a terrific civilian career.
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Evidently you didn't live at the time of the Vietnam war. I think the draft was the price you had to pay for living in America at that time. I believe in freedom of speech. In Chicago 1968 during the democratic convention, Their were riots in Chicago. Draft age kids were taking the Vietcong flag and carrying it while fighting with the police. In the meantime. their were kids in Vietnam fighting for their country because their country asked them to. Many give their lives. The GI,s got blamed for the war. They were told not to wear their uniforms when they got home. They were spit on and had feces thrown at them. My buddies girl friend ask him if he killed any babies. He never seen her again by his choice. If you were drafted and didn't want to carry a weapon you could be a conscientious Objector. The reason we were fighting in Vietnam was to stop Asia from becoming communist. People didn't understand that. The cold war was in full force at that time. The Russians had their fingers in everything. The war was fought politically from Washington not militarily like it should have been. That's one reason it was so unpopular and lasted so long.
I wonder if we had to go to the draft today to protect the United states, how popular it would be? I served in the Marine corp from 59-63 and the Army from 63-66. I am a Vietnam Veteran. Today when somebody walks up to me and thanks me for my service, I take it with a grain of salt. I know some people are sincere while others do it because it is politically correct. Semper Fi.
I wonder if we had to go to the draft today to protect the United states, how popular it would be? I served in the Marine corp from 59-63 and the Army from 63-66. I am a Vietnam Veteran. Today when somebody walks up to me and thanks me for my service, I take it with a grain of salt. I know some people are sincere while others do it because it is politically correct. Semper Fi.
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Cpl Bernard Bates
its not crap. Do you think joining veterans against the war had something to do with you not being treated poorly. What about the others who came back that wouldn;t join the vietnam veterans against the war. I spent 7yrs in the military 4 Marine corp 3 Army . I was over their in 65-66. We did keep communism from spreading in Asia. I came back in 66 nobody cared except my wife and family.My buddy joined the Army for 3yrs was sent to a combat division when he came back they called them baby killers. His girlfriend ditched him. We done what our country asked of us, That is the price you pay for living in the USA. Like it or not. By the way I was an Ammo Tech. we set up ammo supply points for 1st cav. It was 'not a safe place we had an Ammo dump blown at Qui Nhon in Mar, 66.
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SPC Michael Tierney
Sorry Bernie but you are delusional. We are now wooing Vietnam to be our good buddy to thwart Chinese influence in Asia. Before I got involved with VVAW, I had to fly home and go to orientation classes for college. I also resumed my social life quite nicely. I certainly didn't dwell on the VN experience or try to rationalize the stupidity of this war. Ho had been our ally in World War II. He could have been our ally when we chose to try and support a corrupt regime in SVN. Ho had the people supporting him, Diem had the CIA. If we had used our heads we would have been where we are now with them only it would have been 50 years ago.
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Cpl Bernard Bates
You don"t know your history very well. The Vietnamese and chinese have always been enemies. The younger vietnamese want to be our friends because they are afraid of china. Even though both countries are communist they don't get along togther. The older vietnamese who lived during the war are now a minority . I suggest you study your history before you speak about something you know nothing about. Semper Fi.
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SPC Dwain Bryant
I served during the vn war but never received orders to go in theater. When I see a veteran wearing the vn metal on their hats I make a special point in saying welcome home. Even though I never served in nam i too get the treatment as everyone else did only major difference i didn’t have to wake up every morning wondering if I was going to live through the day for 365 days. I respect everyone who has to go there and will honor anyone who has served in Theater. When 9/11 happened my only hope was that we would get in get the job done and get out because war messes with ones mind severely. When I served I listened to a lot of heroes who returned from nam they just needed someone to listen. I do ask anyone who has served recently if everything is ok upstairs and if they do have problems I listen and hand them a crisis card from the VA which if you are at a VA center ask for the cards you just never know when you might need to hand one out. I feel like it’s a veterans duty to check on all veterans to make sure everything is good and if mot take the time to listen.
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My attitude toward draft dodgers changed while I was in my first two years of service. While at Ft. Lewis, I shared a house with another lieutenant whose assignment was "Special Training Company," a group of enlistees from "McNamara's hundred thousand." He had kids in his company who cried at night, some who were bedwetters, kids who had never learned how to run (that's right!) and guys who looked for ways to tease, torment and beat the hell out of guys who cried, or wet their beds, or couldn't run.
I was the XO for a light truck company at the time and had to counsel one soldier that couldn't understand why his car was being repossessed just because he didn't have the money to pay for it right then.
All of these soldiers were in the army because LBJ and McNamara conspired to lower the AFQT score by 15 points to allow men who would ordinarily have been unfit for service, eligible. This created a pool of 100K men to draw from each year and meant that the policy of college deferments could be continued.
A year later I was in Vietnam with the First Infantry Division and saw what exemptions and influence did. I quickly realized that every time a college student took a deferment or a well-connected son was suddenly a CO, someone from the inner city or rural America was brought in to fill the gap.
Back in the states, I was assigned to the S/3 shop of a Transportation Brigade of the 83rd ARCOM. We had doctors, lawyers, PHDs and PHD candidates, Salesmen, and bankers in Sp/4 slots. Not only that but Congress had authorized us to be at 150% fill of our TO&E! This after I had been in the field with infantry companies at 75 to 60% of their authorized strength. So, what deferments and exemptions couldn't do to allow some to avoid Vietnam, the National Guard and Reserves expanded.
I realize that some who avoided serving did so out of a deep conviction that Vietnam was an ill-conceived war and some did have religious convictions against any war. But most of those I knew who avoided war service would have said, as Dick Chaney did, "I've got better things to do than go to Vietnam." I struggle to forgive that.
I was the XO for a light truck company at the time and had to counsel one soldier that couldn't understand why his car was being repossessed just because he didn't have the money to pay for it right then.
All of these soldiers were in the army because LBJ and McNamara conspired to lower the AFQT score by 15 points to allow men who would ordinarily have been unfit for service, eligible. This created a pool of 100K men to draw from each year and meant that the policy of college deferments could be continued.
A year later I was in Vietnam with the First Infantry Division and saw what exemptions and influence did. I quickly realized that every time a college student took a deferment or a well-connected son was suddenly a CO, someone from the inner city or rural America was brought in to fill the gap.
Back in the states, I was assigned to the S/3 shop of a Transportation Brigade of the 83rd ARCOM. We had doctors, lawyers, PHDs and PHD candidates, Salesmen, and bankers in Sp/4 slots. Not only that but Congress had authorized us to be at 150% fill of our TO&E! This after I had been in the field with infantry companies at 75 to 60% of their authorized strength. So, what deferments and exemptions couldn't do to allow some to avoid Vietnam, the National Guard and Reserves expanded.
I realize that some who avoided serving did so out of a deep conviction that Vietnam was an ill-conceived war and some did have religious convictions against any war. But most of those I knew who avoided war service would have said, as Dick Chaney did, "I've got better things to do than go to Vietnam." I struggle to forgive that.
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AB Edward Mondini
Many years ago, I had the opportunity to climb Angel Peak in Utah. It’s a sheer rise of 5000 feet off the floor. As I climbed, I was joined by dozens of people and it was pretty crowded. As I reached the top, through, the number of people suddenly decreased dramatically & by the time I reached the dome, at the very top, I found myself to be all alone.
In the corporate world, I have been at the “mountain top” & I can tell you, it’s very lonely up there and I was mighty uncomfortable. Eventually, I chose to return to the base.
Well, for those young men who were uninitiated in military life, being drafted was the same as being “at the top of the mountain”......without a “Sherpa guide”, I can tell you I’ve looked into their faces......and saw my reflection. My guess is, if you dared, you did too, and if so, your reaction would be the same as mine: I trembled.
Those boys tried to the best of their ability to meet what they perceived as the ultimate challenge. They may have “made the military look bad”, but it wasn’t because they walked in the door with that intention.
When I was at the top of that mountain, I was not more worthy than those other people. I say that not to demean myself, but to tamp down my arrogance.
In the corporate world, I have been at the “mountain top” & I can tell you, it’s very lonely up there and I was mighty uncomfortable. Eventually, I chose to return to the base.
Well, for those young men who were uninitiated in military life, being drafted was the same as being “at the top of the mountain”......without a “Sherpa guide”, I can tell you I’ve looked into their faces......and saw my reflection. My guess is, if you dared, you did too, and if so, your reaction would be the same as mine: I trembled.
Those boys tried to the best of their ability to meet what they perceived as the ultimate challenge. They may have “made the military look bad”, but it wasn’t because they walked in the door with that intention.
When I was at the top of that mountain, I was not more worthy than those other people. I say that not to demean myself, but to tamp down my arrogance.
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Cpl Bernard Bates
I don't know about Army Boot camp they wouldn't let me take it as I had just got out of 4yrs in the Marine Corp. I enlisted in the Marine Corp when I was 17. The 4yrs in the Corp was the best yrs. of my life. The Marines taught me about Life and their wasn't another person on this planet who was better than I was. The corp taught me to never give up. The difficult we do immediately, The impossible takes a little longer. They took our Freedom away from us so we knew how precious it was. A Marine may make a mistake once but Never make the same mistake twice. Physically they pushed us until we thought we couldn't go anymore then took us a little farther. By the end of 12 weeks we could go a lot farther than we ever dreamed of. They also hardened our minds. Discipline was strict. If one man screwed up the whole Plt. got punished. I joined the Army because the Marines said if we wanted you to have a wife we would issue you one. The Army didn't care. I came home from VietNam got a job in Skilled Trades with General Motors worked there for 35yrs. Once A Marine always a Marine is correct, because what I learned in the Corp. Helped me in civilian Life. Semper Fi.
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LTC Forrest Brandt
LTC Forrest Brandt - Thanks, Edward, but I was well aware of the Why in Johnson's actions. It was a cynical calculation that took advantage of the ability of rural whites and urban blacks to resist.
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SPC Michael Tierney
Cheney was and is a despicable man. More recently our last president said that his Vietnam was "avoiding STDs". Private bone spurs.
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"Military conscription in time of national emergency (war)". A sound policy, to have the ability to fill the ranks with able bodied men and women to defend the nation. I have a reasonable attitude towards the bona fide conscientious objector, someone that has proven belief, but is still willing to serve in a capacity that adds to the overall effort. But for the ones, and I believe this applied to many not the few, that simply thought, war sucks and I don't want to get shot, should be held accountable for their actions.
The rights and freedoms enjoyed and guaranteed come with responsibilities, number one of which is, if you want them, you have to be prepared to defend them, or as sure as God made little green apples, someone will take them away. It's not someone else's job, it's everyone's job.
The rights and freedoms enjoyed and guaranteed come with responsibilities, number one of which is, if you want them, you have to be prepared to defend them, or as sure as God made little green apples, someone will take them away. It's not someone else's job, it's everyone's job.
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PO3 Douglas George
My draft number was 50 and I was going to go. At that time you had 10 days to report for enlistment in the service branch of your choice . I chose the Navy. It increased the odds of not being shot at. Running to Canada was not an option. I felt if called it was my duty to go but nothing wrong with stacking the deck in your favor. I got lucky and served 4 years on a Destroyer East coast, med and indian ocean 1971-1975. That being said if ordered to go it being a lawful order I would have gone. By the way ,war does suck and nobody wants to get shot but your duty is your duty and I commend your sense of it.
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SPC Larry Spiller
If there must be a draft, congress had better declare war. Something they have not done since WW2 for purely political expediency and nefarious reasons.
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COL Jon Lopey
Gunny: You bring up some excellent points. As a Viet Nam Era vet, I respect anyone who served during that time but I think overall, a volunteer force is better; however, some type of conscription would do a lot of young people some good (either military or public service) because only 1% or less of our population currently serves, which has some drawbacks. Many CO-types have served bravely in the past, especially in corpsman, other medical, and chaplaincy positions. Some earned Medals of Honor (e.g., Desmond Doss, WW II). Semper Fi, COL L
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GySgt Charles O'Connell
COL Jon Lopey - I concur, a volunteer force is the desired option, as well as the good that military/public service would do for some of our folk who could use some direction. Conscription in the time of national emergency is a must, though I think that some of the deferments could stand to be re-evaluated.
Of the CO's that served honorably, they served as their convictions allowed and I honor them, Desmond Doss being a great example.
Of the CO's that served honorably, they served as their convictions allowed and I honor them, Desmond Doss being a great example.
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SSG Gerhard S. Given the information now available, I would have attempted to put my little brother on a bus for Vancouver, British Columbia rather on the bus to Oakland Army Terminal for his 26 day round trip to Vietnam.
He was KIA as a Newby! Shortly after, the Army in it’s infinite wisdom started an In-Country Indoctrination School for USAEUR Soldiers to understand the incoming rounds were real! You might guess how many Soldiers coming from USAEUR Soldiers were KIA before this indoctrination school commenced.
Wow! That would have really changed his life as he would have been a deserter!
Once the draft dodgers who had gone to Canada, were pardoned, everything and my attitude went to Hell!
He was KIA as a Newby! Shortly after, the Army in it’s infinite wisdom started an In-Country Indoctrination School for USAEUR Soldiers to understand the incoming rounds were real! You might guess how many Soldiers coming from USAEUR Soldiers were KIA before this indoctrination school commenced.
Wow! That would have really changed his life as he would have been a deserter!
Once the draft dodgers who had gone to Canada, were pardoned, everything and my attitude went to Hell!
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CPT (Join to see)
My condolences for your loss. I'm not sure I can judge anyone. The military then and now are so different. The blasé attitudes that command held for soldiers lives makes me sick and if that was the choice people faced I'm not sure I can condemn a man for that.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
CPT (Join to see) Lessons learned are never remembered! A recent 5/15/2019 RP post concurred about every lesson learned being discarded and not shared before the next/current conflict.
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Maj John Bell
CPT (Join to see) - What makes you think that command held "blasé attitudes" toward soldiers lives?
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