Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
Yes, we should have a draft. Yes, people who consciously avoided military service should be ashamed, and shamed. Required military or other national service creates a much larger pool of potential reservists. National service will aid in uniting this country, as old school draftees usually were drawn from the ranks of the poor and the working class, as people with more money had more dodging avenues. Legal otlr not, draft dodging takes a special sort of scumbag... the guy thinks that he is too good to serve his country.
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SPC Michael Tierney
Don Trump is the most famous "people with more money had more dodging avenues". And Don is a "special sort of scum bag".
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I did not want to be drafted because I would have had little choice as to what kind of MOS I would have been assigned, and I wanted to be able to choose my own. I ultimately chose helicopter gunships over "slicks" b/c I would be able to at least "shoot back" at those shooting at me..... The majority of draftees I knew in aviation were conscientious and hard working - who supported the mission. I never had much use for the draft "dogers", but was ok with those who needed "deferments for legitimate reasons.
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SPC Michael Tierney
COL Jon Lopey - It was easy to get a medical deferment. I was drafted in 1967. My father had connections with Doctors and politicians but I wasn't going to chicken out with some sort of foot sore or hay fever. Those were the easiest to get. School deferments were common but expired when you graduated or dropped out. Every one knew the likely outcome of getting drafted (Vietnam Infantry) so many signed up for Guard or Reserves. I had zero interest in a six year commitment. I didn't expect any MOS would help me as a civilian so the two year draft was fine. Almost all the guys in my basic unit were drafted. For the most part, you wouldn't know a US from a RA. But you certainly know a principled draft dodger from a blatant coward. Some people were sincere in their opposition to the stupid war. Others were just trying to duck their duty.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
SPC Michael Tierney - When I was in Nam in 1970 We didn't have much respect for NG's and ER's . They were technicaly in the Army but didn't get into the fight. Many who got drafted and enlisted were not in the fight either through no fault of their own, They could get called in at any time. Now that we had the gulf wars the guard and reserves have earned the respect of the RA's and US soldiers and I'm glad for that. After returning from NAM our local reserve unit tried to coax or thought that they could force me to join them. I told them that They would have to burn the mountain and sift the ashes to get my young ass in.
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SPC Michael Tierney
SPC Lyle Montgomery I never was called to a Reserve unit when discharged in 1969. Not sure why.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
SPC Michael Tierney - In my town we had an Army reserve unit. They tried to get me in, said that I had to, but I knew better. After 2 years of active duty as a draftee, ( I volunteered for the draft) and a year as a grunt in Nam, I had enough killing and just wanted to be left alone. I had no desire to be in the military.
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No.
Draft age young men in that era made their own decisions and have had to live with their decision ever since.
I voluntarily joined the Army and volunteered to serve in Vietnam. Proudly, I would make the same decision today. I have no idea if those who fled to Canada or purposely avoided the draft can say the same.
Draft age young men in that era made their own decisions and have had to live with their decision ever since.
I voluntarily joined the Army and volunteered to serve in Vietnam. Proudly, I would make the same decision today. I have no idea if those who fled to Canada or purposely avoided the draft can say the same.
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The only problem I have with those who did not serve, whether during a daft or not, are those who advocate for military intervention, or exhibit overly (False?) Patriotism...
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Most complicated to answer in a few words. Of course, I support the draft then and now -------- and I believe all American Citizens should serve our country in either the military, education, peace corps, or other public service capacity. However the draft back then was not done fairly and any wealthy family's kid could avoid service in Vietnam by joining the reserves or national guard. Unlike now, back then those units were not combat ready and 99.9 % did not serve in combat or overseas. Personally I could get into the reserves or national guard and I had a marriage with child and college deferment. However, I wanted to be a military aviator and saw the Army as a good career opportunity. I was so immature back then and thought I was bullet proof ------ turns out I was wrong about that too. I am proud to have served as an enlisted man, warrant officer, and commissioned officer.
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LTC Wayne Dandridge
Thanks Gerhard. Everyone has choices in our free society. With the draft a person had many choices: (1.) Go in and serve as a draftee, (2.) Join before being drafted and get a choice of Military Occupational Specialty, (3.) Join the National Guard or Reserves, (4.) Get a married and with child deferment or a full-time college student deferment (or both), (5.) leave the country and face criminal prosecution if and when you return, and (6.) Claim and prove you are a conscientious objector. Whatever the draftee did was based on his or her belief system. Back then, I thought the country could not be wrong about a war being needed and wanted to serve like my Step Dad and Uncles did in the USMC and Army in WWII. Now I am very worried that our current and unguided missile president will get us into another war.
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LTC Wayne Dandridge
Thank you Captain Brad Wilson for the vote up. You may find interesting the Dandridge Definition of Infantry in Vietnam which is at the end of Chapter 11 of the all five-star reviewed, award winning, non-fiction, military history, and action book BLAEES OF THUNDER (Book One). Best regards, W. Larry Dandridge, LTC, US Army Aviation (Retired)
Dandridge Definition of Infantry in Vietnam.
Enlisting, training, and learning; deploying, landing, and assigning; training, recon-ing, and patrolling; sweating, hoping, wishing, and praying; planning, coordinating, following, and leading; running, and waiting, flying, fearing, missing, and taking and retaking; anticipating; shaking, locking, and loading; jumping, assaulting, shooting, taking, and retaking; crawling, sweating, listening, scratching, sneaking, taking and retaking; searching, attacking, bayoneting, taking, and retaking; resting, recuperating, firing, throwing, suffocating, slogging, mortaring, cursing, and swimming; fainting, fumbling, cutting, and sliding; climbing, observing, carrying, shelling, and loving; crying, infiltrating, slogging, ambushing, searching, and destroying; yearning, coughing, craving, taking, and retaking; complaining, begging, blasting, smoking, resupplying, and fighting; falling, swearing, drinking, directing, and blasting; digging, building, grieving, praying, yelling, taking, and retaking; inserting, bleeding, reckoning, blessing, toke-ing, and extracting; thanking, humping, wailing, winning, losing, taking, and retaking; vomiting, securing, slapping, pulling, observing, releasing, tapping, and shooting; dragging, lacking, lobbing, loathing, hating, and vietnamizing; farting, foaming, frothing, fortifying, fumbling, taking and retaking; evacuating, extracting, excruciating, advancing, and retreating, wadding, wobbling, wanting, washing, and never drying; voiding, vomiting, mourning, exhilarating, and suppressing; surprising, confusing, drenching, taking, and retaking; digging, dogging, remembering, and forgetting; breathing, blowing, surviving, taking, and retaking; chilling, falling, peeing, day dreaming, bingeing, breaking, taking, and retaking; worrying, wounding, hurting, and dying; bloating, bagging, and draping; saluting, honoring, folding, and presenting; and burying, suffering, mourning, and grieving!
Dandridge Definition of Infantry in Vietnam.
Enlisting, training, and learning; deploying, landing, and assigning; training, recon-ing, and patrolling; sweating, hoping, wishing, and praying; planning, coordinating, following, and leading; running, and waiting, flying, fearing, missing, and taking and retaking; anticipating; shaking, locking, and loading; jumping, assaulting, shooting, taking, and retaking; crawling, sweating, listening, scratching, sneaking, taking and retaking; searching, attacking, bayoneting, taking, and retaking; resting, recuperating, firing, throwing, suffocating, slogging, mortaring, cursing, and swimming; fainting, fumbling, cutting, and sliding; climbing, observing, carrying, shelling, and loving; crying, infiltrating, slogging, ambushing, searching, and destroying; yearning, coughing, craving, taking, and retaking; complaining, begging, blasting, smoking, resupplying, and fighting; falling, swearing, drinking, directing, and blasting; digging, building, grieving, praying, yelling, taking, and retaking; inserting, bleeding, reckoning, blessing, toke-ing, and extracting; thanking, humping, wailing, winning, losing, taking, and retaking; vomiting, securing, slapping, pulling, observing, releasing, tapping, and shooting; dragging, lacking, lobbing, loathing, hating, and vietnamizing; farting, foaming, frothing, fortifying, fumbling, taking and retaking; evacuating, extracting, excruciating, advancing, and retreating, wadding, wobbling, wanting, washing, and never drying; voiding, vomiting, mourning, exhilarating, and suppressing; surprising, confusing, drenching, taking, and retaking; digging, dogging, remembering, and forgetting; breathing, blowing, surviving, taking, and retaking; chilling, falling, peeing, day dreaming, bingeing, breaking, taking, and retaking; worrying, wounding, hurting, and dying; bloating, bagging, and draping; saluting, honoring, folding, and presenting; and burying, suffering, mourning, and grieving!
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COL Jon Lopey
LTC Dandridge: Thank you for serving so selflessly and courageously! You are right about the disparities in the draft. I think there is some big benefits to compulsory public service (military or civic) but the all-volunteer military we have now is a potent force for good. I volunteered during the Viet Nam Era and it was well worth it. I personally think we are less likely to get into a war at this time because our military is strong and getting stronger. I don't want to get political but it would help if our national leaders, especially congress, got their act together and started working as a team. I served many presidents starting with Nixon ending with Obama, but until recently, I haven't seen so much division and back-biting during my lifetime. I didn't vote for every president I served under but I served, as did my fellow enlisted and officers, with professionalism, respect, and proper decorum, in deference to our Oaths of Office. Semper Fi, COL L
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SP6 Alec Andrus
I had a wife and child and was drafted. I considered it a responsibility of citizenship. I could have dodged but didn't Thank you Colonel for your example and service
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I've pretty much gotten over worrying about this, lots more significant things to worry about these days. Many classmates were draft dodgers in one shape or form, getting married and having a kid was one of the most common, but some went to Canada, and the lucky ones used connections to get into the Guard. All were cowards to me at the time but age has mellow me. Would I seek them out to rekindle old times, no way but they know what they did and if they can live with it, so can I.
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SP6 Alec Andrus
Since I had a wife and son at the time i was drafted, I decided that I was a US citizen and had the obligation to serve. VN created so much anger and division but I served and weathered the abuse stateside. I was not impressed by those who found diddley ways to dodge the draft. But they made their choices and get to live with them. My guilt is that many of my brotyhers didn't make it back alive and I am here living a life of confort 51 years later.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
I know what I have done for our country and that is what keeps me sleeping well at night.
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We had a lot of draft dodgers both in the US as well as those who fled to Canada. I was not a fan of the lottery system.
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SGT Daniel Petitt
It was Gerald Ford & Jimmy Carter who granted the amnesty’s .It was not Bill Clinton.SSG Jimmy Cernich
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Maj Robert Thornton
SGT Ronald Audas one of my college friends was in California when his draft notice arrived at his house in NJ. His dad didn’t open it but knew it was a draft notice. He called my friend, he went straight to the Air Force recruiter and signed up.
While he was in basic a pair of MP’s arrived at his house in NJ, only to find out he was already serving in the AF.
While he was in basic a pair of MP’s arrived at his house in NJ, only to find out he was already serving in the AF.
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If you "dodged the draft" by running away to some country like Canada or Mexico, then I have an issue with that. However, if you legally had deferments, medical exclusions, or whatever then there is nothing more to say, you were exempt. People said the same thing about Clinton. Obama never served and you had people saying BS things like, how can he be Commander in Chief because he never served, and so on. Now they are saying the same or similar things about President Trump. It is just a bunch of BS.
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Maj John Bell
SSG Shevelle Lewis - As I stated above, it does not matter if the bone spurs cause pain or not. Competent medical professionals and military brass evaluate whether or not a pre-existing medical condition is likely to interfere with a recruit's ability to succcesfully complete their first enlistment. That determination is not made on individual cases. It is a matter of statistics. It is all about not wasting money if an unacceptable likelihood of early discharge exists.
Example: A person who donates a kidney will most likely have no permanent disability and/or discomfort. They may play lacrosse or tackle football just fine. They may want to serve their country. Competent medical professionals and the military brass say "no."
There are only two ways that a waiver can be issued:
1-The Branch Secretary must request from the Secretary of Defense, and justify a waiver for the entire branch, and show why the pre-existing medical condition has no impact on a recruit to serve in any MOS and any billet within the branch. Such a waiver has never been granted.
2-The Branch Secretary must request from the Secretary of Defense, and justify a waiver for the individual, and show why not enlisting or commissioning the specific individual will negatively impact the branches ability to carry out its mission, AND explain why no other personnel medically qualified could satisfactorily meet the needs of the service. Less than half a dozen such waivers have been granted since WWII and they were for highly technical, scientific requirements, where the potential candidate was the leader in their field.
Example: A person who donates a kidney will most likely have no permanent disability and/or discomfort. They may play lacrosse or tackle football just fine. They may want to serve their country. Competent medical professionals and the military brass say "no."
There are only two ways that a waiver can be issued:
1-The Branch Secretary must request from the Secretary of Defense, and justify a waiver for the entire branch, and show why the pre-existing medical condition has no impact on a recruit to serve in any MOS and any billet within the branch. Such a waiver has never been granted.
2-The Branch Secretary must request from the Secretary of Defense, and justify a waiver for the individual, and show why not enlisting or commissioning the specific individual will negatively impact the branches ability to carry out its mission, AND explain why no other personnel medically qualified could satisfactorily meet the needs of the service. Less than half a dozen such waivers have been granted since WWII and they were for highly technical, scientific requirements, where the potential candidate was the leader in their field.
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COL Jon Lopey
MSGT: I have to agree with you. Going to another country to avoid the draft or military service is "over the top." The reality is that during the Viet Nam War and since, most citizens have not served in the military and in most cases, that should not be held against them. I personally think those who did not serve missed out on a great opportunity. I served under all our presidents from Nixon to Obama. I am retired from the military but I think President Trump supports the military and for that I am grateful because our military men and women deserve that support. There are some presidents who served in the military who did not support the Armed Forces that much but that is another topic for another time. COL L
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SFC Thomas Butler
But don't call yourself a war hero decades later.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-war-hero-netanyahu-israel-b2811080.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-war-hero-netanyahu-israel-b2811080.html
Trump calls Israeli PM Netanyahu ‘war hero’ and says ‘I guess I am too’
The president made the remarks in a radio interview complaining he was not given enough credit for bombing Iran’s nuclear sites
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"In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds..."
I do. First, your comparison is, at best inaccurate and at worse a slap in the face of both draftees and slaves. When a nation goes to war no citizen should be exempt from the war effort because none will be exempt from the results of the war's success or failure.
A draftee is indeed pressed into service, obliged to the Oath of Enlistment, and denied freedom of movement, but he is still essentially a human being entitled to all of the rights and dignity therein. These things were denied slaves. Slaves lost their names, their lives, and their value as a human being. Draftees didn't have their children sold. Draftees didn't have their genitals filleted to advance medicine. Draftees weren't mutilated for punishment. And they don't suffer generational stigma and derangements.
I do. First, your comparison is, at best inaccurate and at worse a slap in the face of both draftees and slaves. When a nation goes to war no citizen should be exempt from the war effort because none will be exempt from the results of the war's success or failure.
A draftee is indeed pressed into service, obliged to the Oath of Enlistment, and denied freedom of movement, but he is still essentially a human being entitled to all of the rights and dignity therein. These things were denied slaves. Slaves lost their names, their lives, and their value as a human being. Draftees didn't have their children sold. Draftees didn't have their genitals filleted to advance medicine. Draftees weren't mutilated for punishment. And they don't suffer generational stigma and derangements.
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SSG Gerhard S.
First, I would respectfully ask you to consider broadening your view of slavery. Limiting one's view of slavery only to the chattel form practiced by the English, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, et al, in their own lands, and in their colonies, and later the Americans and Confederates over 150 years ago isn't very comprehensive. Modern Slavery takes many forms, and there are tens of millions of people enslaved around the world even today. Here's a good place to start. https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/
Secondly, is it your contention that one can only serve their nation during war as a member of the military? Doesn't one provide a service by producing guns, bullets, planes, farming food, drilling for oil, producing plastic packaging, learning to become a doctor, or an engineer, or a brick layer? People serve their country by being productive, and by not being a burden on it, both during wartime, and during peacetime.
Thank you for your comments, and to be clear there was no disrespect intended for either victims of slavery, or victims of the draft. Respectful regards.
Secondly, is it your contention that one can only serve their nation during war as a member of the military? Doesn't one provide a service by producing guns, bullets, planes, farming food, drilling for oil, producing plastic packaging, learning to become a doctor, or an engineer, or a brick layer? People serve their country by being productive, and by not being a burden on it, both during wartime, and during peacetime.
Thank you for your comments, and to be clear there was no disrespect intended for either victims of slavery, or victims of the draft. Respectful regards.
The 2018 Global Slavery Index provides a country by country ranking of the number of people in modern slavery, as well as an analysis of the actions governments are taking to respond, and the factors that make people vulnerable.
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SSG Nana Togonmessie Abloklu Danfira Adedufira
Well, no. The word slavery was chosen specifically for its domestic associations with chattel slavery. But just to be clear, military service isn't comparable to sex trafficking, child labor, forced labor, debt bondage, or servile marriages.
And since you brought it up, the conditions of African Americans very much did qualify as debt slavery at least until 1970. So while I certainly don't think this is the case today let's not be too dismissive of how not ancient this is. Only an idiot would let something almost 50 years old impede their progress.
To your point about service to your nation, I think it illustrates a misunderstanding of the fundemental purpose of the military. War. If a BN of NK Sino/Russo jihadists invade Bellevue, WA nobody will need to be a doctor, engineer, or bricklayer until the shooting stops. Selective Service is about putting boots on the ground when the war comes home. And none of the occupations you mentioned are hindered by ACUs those same public contributions can be made to the nation.
I'd like to say I appreciate you taking the time to have an impassioned but respectful discussion on the subject. I welcome continuing this conversation. I think that we, as Americans have lost the art of discourse and that loss is damaging to our people, the American people. Thank you for your time and thank you for listening to an old man with a differing opinion.
And since you brought it up, the conditions of African Americans very much did qualify as debt slavery at least until 1970. So while I certainly don't think this is the case today let's not be too dismissive of how not ancient this is. Only an idiot would let something almost 50 years old impede their progress.
To your point about service to your nation, I think it illustrates a misunderstanding of the fundemental purpose of the military. War. If a BN of NK Sino/Russo jihadists invade Bellevue, WA nobody will need to be a doctor, engineer, or bricklayer until the shooting stops. Selective Service is about putting boots on the ground when the war comes home. And none of the occupations you mentioned are hindered by ACUs those same public contributions can be made to the nation.
I'd like to say I appreciate you taking the time to have an impassioned but respectful discussion on the subject. I welcome continuing this conversation. I think that we, as Americans have lost the art of discourse and that loss is damaging to our people, the American people. Thank you for your time and thank you for listening to an old man with a differing opinion.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Though I agree, voluntary military service is not
comparable to to any of the slavery forms you noted, I would argue that FORCED miliary service IS akin to forced labor. How can it be anything else? I see you're focused on arguing against the slavery issue, have you given any thought to the alternative Servitude perspective?
Lastly, do you truly believe we don't need doctors, factory workers, Farmers, seamstresses, or bricklayers to fight, or win a war?
comparable to to any of the slavery forms you noted, I would argue that FORCED miliary service IS akin to forced labor. How can it be anything else? I see you're focused on arguing against the slavery issue, have you given any thought to the alternative Servitude perspective?
Lastly, do you truly believe we don't need doctors, factory workers, Farmers, seamstresses, or bricklayers to fight, or win a war?
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I was a draft dodger myself. I enlisted in the Army when I was seventeen and I did not know I had register for selective service so when I wast in Vietnam I got a nasty letter from my draft board and when I went to my troop commander he told me to commit a physical impossibility he hurt my feelings. I went to Big Mike my first sergeant and he just started laughing!!
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SSG Ronald Bloodworth
Now that’s classic.....hahahahaha
Only in the military does crap like that happen, and the ridiculous clowns running the circus stateside still don’t see the hilarity of it all. Some people just give no sense of humor....
Only in the military does crap like that happen, and the ridiculous clowns running the circus stateside still don’t see the hilarity of it all. Some people just give no sense of humor....
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Suspended Profile
I got a similar letter. I signed my enlistment at 17, and while I was in "A" school my father informed me the selective service board had determined I would not be eligible to vote until registered for the draft.
We had a good laugh.
We had a good laugh.
PO1 John Johnson
Got the same letter from the Draft Board or whomever was running it in the early 80's. Had been in the USCG since JUL '79 (I was 17) and was still on active duty. Wrote back to them and told them to check my Service Jacket. Never heard from them again. I wish I had kept that letter so I could frame it.
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CPT Brad Wilson
My dad had the same thing happen. He joined the Marines at 17 and got a nasty gram from the draft board threatening to throw him in jail etc. The letter was addressed to
PFC ....USMC
his unit
APO. Okinawa
PFC ....USMC
his unit
APO. Okinawa
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