Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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During the earlier part/mid point of the Vietnam War, I was assigned to an AFEES station where we processed inductees, enlistees, and officer candidates. We witnessed so very many determined efforts to get around the system there, and anti war protests (of course we were the targets), I was sickened by so many attitudes, I was later assigned to a boot camp position where many of these "inductees" were sort out as completely unsuitable. Thank Goodness for the "All Volunteer" services which began to replace malcontents with service men and women who were there for their own reasons.
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PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM
SGT (Join to see) - I do not normally reply to unknowns, but I will this time. I too Volunteered, as Second Generation NAVY, I could not wait. My knowledge of World History came from excellent Teachers and self study while there. I learned a good bit from friends at the French Embassy. They were there before the US MAGV SOG Groups. I know the real history not the trash that the Liberal Media put out. Thank You for your service and Welcome Home Brother. Now get busy and fill out your Profile so w can see your smiling face!
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SGT (Join to see)
PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM - I’m far too jaded to smile. And respectfully, anything on my profile would be irrelevant. Do my MOS or Unit really matter? Do my awards matter? Good information is good information. I’m read up a little more extensively than “the trash the Liberal Media put out.” (For example, I know the French were there long before us, and we were supporting them. Hence, why I wrote, “Our involvement, which began more than a decade before President Johnson was running the show”). Besides, if anonymity was good enough for Publius or Agrippa, it’s good enough for me.
Anyway, if you learned from the French, of course you know that one of the most idiotic aspects of the Vietnam war is that Ho Chi Minh was actually an admirer of the United States. He lived in the United States for several years. He petitioned the United States to help gain independence from France, but was ignored. The United States supported France regaining some colonial control after they got thumped in WWII.
“All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Sound familiar? It’s a near verbatim quote from our Declaration of Independence. It is from the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence. (Yup, they copied it). Another idiotic aspect is that while a communist Vietnam probably wouldn’t have been a close ally of the US, Ho Chi Minh was far more of a nationalist. There was no great spread of Communism. He and his followers, pre war, were far more interested in self determination than a great, regional spread of Communist ideology. They really just wanted the ability to do their own thing. The US said no.
Also, their war strategy was similar to that of Washington’s against the British. Never suffer a major knockout blow, wear down the enemy, drain their resources, and generally make the war so unpalatable that they quit fighting first. This wasn’t on accident. They understood and respected US history.
Of course, you know all of this. It’s just sad. The war didn’t have to happen. Our original involvement was to help France regain some colonial control in the Far East after WWII. Decades later, it turned into a d*ck swinging contest and almost a face saving measure as to how to get out and not permanently damage US reputation and image. Too many families lost loved ones, including mine.
The idiocy of the war, however, does not diminish the inherent nobility of their sacrifices. It just means that our leaders aren’t the best at picking and choosing our wars.
Best of luck.
Anyway, if you learned from the French, of course you know that one of the most idiotic aspects of the Vietnam war is that Ho Chi Minh was actually an admirer of the United States. He lived in the United States for several years. He petitioned the United States to help gain independence from France, but was ignored. The United States supported France regaining some colonial control after they got thumped in WWII.
“All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Sound familiar? It’s a near verbatim quote from our Declaration of Independence. It is from the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence. (Yup, they copied it). Another idiotic aspect is that while a communist Vietnam probably wouldn’t have been a close ally of the US, Ho Chi Minh was far more of a nationalist. There was no great spread of Communism. He and his followers, pre war, were far more interested in self determination than a great, regional spread of Communist ideology. They really just wanted the ability to do their own thing. The US said no.
Also, their war strategy was similar to that of Washington’s against the British. Never suffer a major knockout blow, wear down the enemy, drain their resources, and generally make the war so unpalatable that they quit fighting first. This wasn’t on accident. They understood and respected US history.
Of course, you know all of this. It’s just sad. The war didn’t have to happen. Our original involvement was to help France regain some colonial control in the Far East after WWII. Decades later, it turned into a d*ck swinging contest and almost a face saving measure as to how to get out and not permanently damage US reputation and image. Too many families lost loved ones, including mine.
The idiocy of the war, however, does not diminish the inherent nobility of their sacrifices. It just means that our leaders aren’t the best at picking and choosing our wars.
Best of luck.
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Drafted and slavery are on the same level. Not everyone draft went to war. I do not see people lining up to volunteer for slavery. Doing your duty as a citizen for the greater good of the country is not slavery.
The draftees, until 1970, were the ones who bought the American way of life we live today. Look at the demographics of the people who volunteered and the people who were drafted and where they served. Hmm, wonder which group suffered the most casualties.
The draftees, until 1970, were the ones who bought the American way of life we live today. Look at the demographics of the people who volunteered and the people who were drafted and where they served. Hmm, wonder which group suffered the most casualties.
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This is a no-win situation. I look at those who protested the war and lost everything (Ali as a prime example), and look at others who conviently didn’t go for whatever reason yet they became presidents and congressmen. One did five years and had to beg, borrow, and steal to get back to where he left off. Others used privlide and ‘school’ deferments. Who’s right and who’s wrong? There have also been others who have been chided for somehow signing into the Guard to not go. Is that right or wrong? I’m torn a few ways being my father was in the Army before he deployed to Nam. He went being it was his duty. Ali went to jail for solid principles I somewhat agree with, but then again I made a point with myself to go. I felt you can’t earn your way while others are carrying your load in battle while you enjoy the fruits of their labor in garrison. Yet I still look at those who’ve sent us into battle and the last battle hardened vet to do so was Bush Sr. So were all the others who made every attempt to not go worthless? This subject tears me apart because of our sense of duty extends past us and our country. We should question why, when no clear answers are available yet those who send us either don’t know the answers or cloak themselves in the flag as a means to shut us up and know we’ll do the job. Ali was right. I believe that with all my heart. My father was right, over 100,000 other sad saps were right, and the 58,000 names on that wall are right. Unfortunately that also makes all those of privlidge who used every hook and crook not to go right because we allowed them not to.
I’m the end, I know quite a few NCOs, SNCOs, and officers who hid in TRADOC, Recruiting, ‘special duty assignments’, and somehow ended up being in charge of units telling others what to do but they can’t or didn’t. We allowed this to happen. I even remember a few SNCOs and senior officers who went TDY and stayed just long enough to be able to claim ‘they were there’, get a patch, maybe a CIB/CAB and come home swearing they’ve put in work. We allowed that to happen, so the onus falls back on us.
We allowed it, we should own it or fix it so everything applies equally. It won’t so what was the question again?
I’m the end, I know quite a few NCOs, SNCOs, and officers who hid in TRADOC, Recruiting, ‘special duty assignments’, and somehow ended up being in charge of units telling others what to do but they can’t or didn’t. We allowed this to happen. I even remember a few SNCOs and senior officers who went TDY and stayed just long enough to be able to claim ‘they were there’, get a patch, maybe a CIB/CAB and come home swearing they’ve put in work. We allowed that to happen, so the onus falls back on us.
We allowed it, we should own it or fix it so everything applies equally. It won’t so what was the question again?
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SFC (Join to see)
That is a similar dilemma I have when approaching this topic.
After reading your response, it made of think of a lyric from the song, "B.Y.O.B" by System of a Down; "Why don't Presidents fight the wars? Why do they always send the poor?" While there have been a number of presidents who have served in the military, I don't believe many if any have fought in a specific war they have ordered.
The poor throughout the world and history have always been the ones to shoulder the majority of the burden of territorial defense, while the privileged use their money or influence to either obtain riskless positions or avoid it altogether.
After reading your response, it made of think of a lyric from the song, "B.Y.O.B" by System of a Down; "Why don't Presidents fight the wars? Why do they always send the poor?" While there have been a number of presidents who have served in the military, I don't believe many if any have fought in a specific war they have ordered.
The poor throughout the world and history have always been the ones to shoulder the majority of the burden of territorial defense, while the privileged use their money or influence to either obtain riskless positions or avoid it altogether.
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Suspended Profile
I don't hold it against anyone for "dodging" the draft unless they're a chicken hawk.
PVT Raymond Lopez
Stop bringing politicians into this. I am a retired federal law enforcement officer and will happily confess that I am a true believer in Sam Clemens’ (also known as Mark Twain) famous remark “Congress is America’s only true native criminal class.” With all that feel good ethics laws the congressional critters passed and which they creatively evade, the old pre Watergate days of bulging envelopes is gone. Now the Congressional critters have to be more creative. They have lifetime pensions and medical insurance plans paid by your tax dollars. They cannot convert their campaign funds to personal use anymore so they set up political action committees to buy more influence. To supplement their meager incomes they share their “wisdom” with anyone willing to pay for it. Then share their experience and wisdom in self-published books such as the famous and inspiring “A Gourmet’s Guide to Rape and Murder in Politics on your Dime”. A guide to public service where the writer confesses that he or she screwed the taxpayers (THAT IS YOU!) Got investment information from “friends” got richer taking advantage of it without fear of criminal sanctions because of self-created exemptions. Where can you buy the book? You cannot because for some strange reason they all seem to be bought by lobbyists!!! Just remember Sam Clemens’ (also known as Mark Twain) was a Victorian gentleman and in those gentler days “being in congress” was a euphemism for “fornication”. So logically it can follow that congress is in “in congress” with you every day!! THINK ABOUT IT!!!!
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I agree with everything you laid out above. However, one thing history has shown this country is that we continue to encounter unexpected circumstances. Comparing the level of volunteers over the years, I feel, is inaccurate since, as a society we continue to change in thoughts, priorities and personal loyalties. There should always be a draft registration in my opinion. However, only under the most egregious of circumstances under which the country finds itself threatened directly should we ever again actually utilize the draft. Clearly, conscripts, generally speaking are unlikely to be of the personal caliber found in volunteers. I continue to pray that this threat never materializes and that the draft remains unused throughout the future.
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While I agree that conscription is a form of indentured servitude. That being said, there is still a need to keep the system in place in case there's a massive conflict that can't be resolved with an all volunteer force. Wars have a tendency towards becoming huge and these wars can be an existential threat to a country.
To the question of whether or not I harbor any animosity towards a "draft dodger", it depends on the circumstances. If they fled to another country, I would think that it should forfeit citizenship. If they stayed here and dealt with the consequences of their actions, I wouldn't be angry. Some people have a legitimate moral objection to warfare. That's understandable. Perhaps they just don't want to die. Also a position I understand, granted there should be consequences for these actions. Possibly a restriction from ever being authorized to get a government job on federal, state or local levels, as they've demonstrated that they won't fulfill an oath to support and defend the constitution. As for those that come up with medical excuses, I don't think that we can prove that they lied to get out of it. I find it despicable to fake a medical issue to avoid both consequences or combat, but how do you determine the truth?
To the question of whether or not I harbor any animosity towards a "draft dodger", it depends on the circumstances. If they fled to another country, I would think that it should forfeit citizenship. If they stayed here and dealt with the consequences of their actions, I wouldn't be angry. Some people have a legitimate moral objection to warfare. That's understandable. Perhaps they just don't want to die. Also a position I understand, granted there should be consequences for these actions. Possibly a restriction from ever being authorized to get a government job on federal, state or local levels, as they've demonstrated that they won't fulfill an oath to support and defend the constitution. As for those that come up with medical excuses, I don't think that we can prove that they lied to get out of it. I find it despicable to fake a medical issue to avoid both consequences or combat, but how do you determine the truth?
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for posting... Some of these restrictions already exist in the selective service system. For instance if a man fails to register by age 26, not only can he no longer register but he is ineligible for the following.
◾federal student loans and grant programs
◾federal job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly Workforce Investment Act)
◾federal jobs or security clearance as a contractor
◾U.S. citizenship for immigrants
◾federal student loans and grant programs
◾federal job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly Workforce Investment Act)
◾federal jobs or security clearance as a contractor
◾U.S. citizenship for immigrants
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SSG Gerhard S.
I would also add that indentured servitude was a voluntary action. One agreed to work, to pay off a debt, often for passage to the new world.
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In the big scheme of things, it’s much like taking legal tax deductions. The prior draft had so many questionable deferments that it was a mockery of everyone serving (even by compulsive service). Everyone serve, no deferments, everyone in some capacity OR all volunteers. It was the government’s fault for the fouled up mess.
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(Join to see)
Agreed ! 'baby busch' had many deferments, cheney had 5, rummie had 6 & asscroft had 5, an entire regime of WARMONGERS, who were Draft Dodgers !!!!
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The question know is will you encourage your children the dodge a possible draft in the future. The "dodging" is not so easy now.
I am a volunteer member of my area's Draft Board. The Selective Service has openings around the country. Go to their website to volunteer.
I am a volunteer member of my area's Draft Board. The Selective Service has openings around the country. Go to their website to volunteer.
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SSG Gerhard S.
I would encourage my adult children to make their own informed choices. I also suspect I wouldn't be a very good member on a draft board.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Registering for the selective service, is not even mandatory, but failing to register does come with some consequences like becoming ineligible for the following programs:
◾federal student loans and grant programs
◾federal job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly Workforce Investment Act)
◾federal jobs or security clearance as a contractor
◾U.S. citizenship for immigrants
◾federal student loans and grant programs
◾federal job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly Workforce Investment Act)
◾federal jobs or security clearance as a contractor
◾U.S. citizenship for immigrants
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