Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
You know, the older I get, the more complicated this issue gets within my own mind. Like any child of the Cold War, I had this view that a true citizen of any country, would step up and fight for it, should the need arise.
Then, as I grew up, and entered High School, heard the nightly body count, knew so many in uniform, and attended so many, many funerals, I let the idea wander thru my mind a bit, and I thought, "We are each a collection of our own decisions and actions, if that is the decision they make, and those are their actions, then so be it... because a time is coming when they will feel a sense of loss for not having those experiences so many of us do... and dang, you have congressmen swearing they were in Vietnam... you have Stolen Valor all over the place, by people, that just had to lift a a hand and swear in, just like we did, but chose otherwise. Are they regretting it now? Are they suddenly feeling Envy that we have something they never, ever will? Who knows... because I certainly don't.
What I do know, after serving in the tail end of Vietnam, loosing friends, relatives and experiences that were denied all of us, because of the loss of those men who may have crossed our paths in the years since... I don't feel the anger I used to. Now, I feel a sense of smugness, that there are those who will never understand, and I'm OK with that, because now, it seems they are coming out of the woodwork, pretending to be what they never had the guts to be... us.
Then, as I grew up, and entered High School, heard the nightly body count, knew so many in uniform, and attended so many, many funerals, I let the idea wander thru my mind a bit, and I thought, "We are each a collection of our own decisions and actions, if that is the decision they make, and those are their actions, then so be it... because a time is coming when they will feel a sense of loss for not having those experiences so many of us do... and dang, you have congressmen swearing they were in Vietnam... you have Stolen Valor all over the place, by people, that just had to lift a a hand and swear in, just like we did, but chose otherwise. Are they regretting it now? Are they suddenly feeling Envy that we have something they never, ever will? Who knows... because I certainly don't.
What I do know, after serving in the tail end of Vietnam, loosing friends, relatives and experiences that were denied all of us, because of the loss of those men who may have crossed our paths in the years since... I don't feel the anger I used to. Now, I feel a sense of smugness, that there are those who will never understand, and I'm OK with that, because now, it seems they are coming out of the woodwork, pretending to be what they never had the guts to be... us.
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Thinking about this question whether "we" should be upset about draft dodgers, is seems to boil down to... who is "we"?
Those who entered the all-volunteer Army really don't have any skin in the game in this question's context. Consequently, their perspectives are secondary.
Most Vietnam Vets have made peace with the past regarding this matter, but for those who may still harbor ill feelings, they have paid their dues in spades.
Let them have their say. Maybe it will serve to help work the bugs out. The Vietnam Vet paid the price regarding the draft dodger; not the rest of you.
As for the snowflakes, Democrats and Trump-haters, if you didn't serve in an era in which the draft was in effect, you have no standing to call the president a draft-dodger.
Trump had a medical deferment, meaning the military rejected him.
Those who entered the all-volunteer Army really don't have any skin in the game in this question's context. Consequently, their perspectives are secondary.
Most Vietnam Vets have made peace with the past regarding this matter, but for those who may still harbor ill feelings, they have paid their dues in spades.
Let them have their say. Maybe it will serve to help work the bugs out. The Vietnam Vet paid the price regarding the draft dodger; not the rest of you.
As for the snowflakes, Democrats and Trump-haters, if you didn't serve in an era in which the draft was in effect, you have no standing to call the president a draft-dodger.
Trump had a medical deferment, meaning the military rejected him.
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Sgt Dale Boston
how many have plead guilty and are going to jail,
if this man piss on you and tell you it's raining you would believe him, don't come around me.
unfortunately there are many who would follow satin straight to hell and call themselves Christians.
if this man piss on you and tell you it's raining you would believe him, don't come around me.
unfortunately there are many who would follow satin straight to hell and call themselves Christians.
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No. I'm a firm believer that service in the military is a calling of sorts. Just as a priest must be called by God to serve the church, I consider those who choose to serve in the military as something like 'monks' under the Constitution of the United States. That is not to take away from those who answered the call via the draft as well.
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PO3 Douglas George
I agree with you except for one thing. I never met a serviceman who was a Monk. lol
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Yeah! 7 members of my family went to Vietnam. 2 came back in a box. 3 were drafted and 4 volunteered. To have a polical opinion is ok, to watch your neighbors and family leave to fight while you stand home and enjoy life isn't! I'll always have problems with people who did that, and then protest against my family for going! They got treated like dog shit (Vietnam Vets) when they got home. No matter how much love we gave them just happy to see them again, some ass wipe would always say awful things to them in public. That hurt them! So draft dodgers, yeah they can eat shit!
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Sgt (Join to see)
SGT Kyle Bickley Well said. When I left Vietnam, I went to Okinawa for three or four days to pick up my uniforms, get a haircut, shots, etc. While there, A Marine that just arrived, told me that my best friend had been killed the day after I left. In the states, myself and others returning from Vietnam were in uniform so that we could fly military standby. At LAX, I had maggots yelling at us, calling us names, and trying to get in our way. One of the hardest things that I have ever done was not tearing into these protestors. To this day, I can't stand protestors of any kind. I am sorry for the losses suffered by your family.
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SGT Kyle Bickley
Mr. Hallock, I'm sorry for the way you were treated! The training I received from the Vietnam Vets later on in my hitch would save my life. I own you people big!
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I personally would rather serve with people that wanted to be there, gay, bigender or what ever at least they want to be there I have friends that wanted to serve but couldn't due to medical reasons I don't begrudge them they still support the military, if given a deferment ok as long as you join after, as far as those that actively ran away I have no sympathy, as I see it now having a draft would be useless this new generation are weak have no pride in our country the only thing they know about war is at their game controllers, they want everything but don't want to wok for it, freedom comes at a cost, I did my 31 years lost much but wouldn't change it
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LTC Lee Bouchard
I think those who ran and went to Canada have not thought who had to replace them. Either as a volunteer or a draftee. Maybe their replacement came home in metal flag draped coffin while they remained FREE in Canada. I don't fault anyone who was deferred by legal default. However, I will never forgive or forget the draft dodger for being a coward. I do reserve the possible exception on a case by case basis.
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"Dodging the draft" has so many personal definitions. There were many exemptions that were put in place by the authorities because they determined it was in the nation's best interest to defer, or excuse, an individual's service. I don't consider falling into one of those categories as dodging. The military desired an inductee to be qualified for unlimited service, therefor if you had a physical condition where you were not able to meet that qualification, the military didn't want you. I bear no ill will toward those who met those conditions for legal exemption or deferment.
I still do not understand or accept Carter's pardon of those who fled the states to avoid prosecution for dodging. They broke the law and turned their back on the nation because they thought their conclusions held precedent over the law of the land. Once people start deciding they are above the law, ,we have anarchy. I consider those who opted to use political connections ton avoid the draft to fall into this group. Clinton indeed was working to avoid service before graduation by contacting politicians to seek what he considered favorable treatment to avoid service.
I never considered service, either legally imposed or voluntary as personal servitude of indentured service. All of life has situations where there is expectation of forsaking some personal desire for the greater good. I, and most people, give up personal aspirations to fulfill obligations. I would have liked to have bought a Corvette in my younger days, but didn't because I knew my family would not have the advantage of the money I spent on the car for things that they, or I, considered necessary for their happiness and welfare. If I had chosen to ignore their welfare, I could have been picked up by the authorities and been forced to provide the appropriate support for my children and wife. Service defending a nation is one of the prices paid for being a resident of any nation if it is to survive.
I still do not understand or accept Carter's pardon of those who fled the states to avoid prosecution for dodging. They broke the law and turned their back on the nation because they thought their conclusions held precedent over the law of the land. Once people start deciding they are above the law, ,we have anarchy. I consider those who opted to use political connections ton avoid the draft to fall into this group. Clinton indeed was working to avoid service before graduation by contacting politicians to seek what he considered favorable treatment to avoid service.
I never considered service, either legally imposed or voluntary as personal servitude of indentured service. All of life has situations where there is expectation of forsaking some personal desire for the greater good. I, and most people, give up personal aspirations to fulfill obligations. I would have liked to have bought a Corvette in my younger days, but didn't because I knew my family would not have the advantage of the money I spent on the car for things that they, or I, considered necessary for their happiness and welfare. If I had chosen to ignore their welfare, I could have been picked up by the authorities and been forced to provide the appropriate support for my children and wife. Service defending a nation is one of the prices paid for being a resident of any nation if it is to survive.
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In addition to draftees the military had volunteers who only volunteered because they knew they would be drafted, Volunteering gave them some control.
I have no problem with anyone who dodged legally. Those who ran to Canada hold a lesser status in my book.
I have no problem with anyone who dodged legally. Those who ran to Canada hold a lesser status in my book.
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Hi Charlie. Hope all continues to go well for you. I had a lottery number of 41. I knew I would be drafted. I had a wife and 2 boys when I was drafted in September 1972. My boys were 2 years old and 3 months old at the time. For the vast majority of my 2 years I was either at Ft Leonard Wood or deployed overseas in Japan. I spent about 30 days home over that 2 years. When I came home to ETS out of OART I was spit at in an airport terminal. When I got home, I was greeted by my wife and we went to her parents home. That first evening home my wife, Diane, and her mother were preparing dinner in the kitchen. I was in the living room actually watching TV in English. I heard Diane talking to our youngest, now 2 years old. I heard her tell him to go get Daddy for supper. He came in to the living room, walked right by me, picked up my picture and took it to the dining room He had no clue who I was. Despite being separated from my family for almost all of two years, being hated so much by the citizens of this great country it was palpable, being called names and spit at, having my kids not know me......I never considered myself a slave. Even though I was drafted, my service was, in fact, voluntary because they were other options I could have taken. Jail was not an option. Canada was not an option. Since I had other options, it was not involuntary. While I may not have volunteered, I approached my new role as I approached all previous jobs. I was the best I could be. I made E5 in 19 months. I learned a lot from my service. I am proud of my service and would make the same decision today. Neither slaves nor indentured servants had the options draftees had. As to whether or not I resent draft dodgers, it depends on the situation. I don't like the idea that the rich or connected could avoid what the rest of us didn't. On the other hand, if they were conscientious objectors and have lived the rest of their life consistent with their beliefs, I not only don't resent them I respect them.
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LTC James McElreath
Dennis,
I realize that the Vietnam veteran got a very raw by the citizens upon returning to leave the service. I hope that that has became more palatable, over the years. I would not like for anyone to go through that crap. Then there was no medical help for those not only catastrophic wounds but those with PTSD might had broke their spirit all the more! But I personally thank you for your service.
I realize that the Vietnam veteran got a very raw by the citizens upon returning to leave the service. I hope that that has became more palatable, over the years. I would not like for anyone to go through that crap. Then there was no medical help for those not only catastrophic wounds but those with PTSD might had broke their spirit all the more! But I personally thank you for your service.
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COL Jon Lopey
Dennis: Thank you for your service. I too served during the Viet Nam Era. As a Marine, I too was assailed by anti-war types at the San Francisco Airport. When I returned from overseas, I used to fly home some weekends on the "Red Eye" out of LA (tickets were $13.00) (I was stationed at Camp Pendleton). When I made sergeant in the Marines, I wore my uniform home quite often. Despite the comments that came on occasion, it was worth it. I once had friends from high school as me if we were "baby killers." I didn't like the Hari Krishna's bothering us either but I lived in the Bay Area and endured it. My family was patriotic and so were many of my associates. Viet Nam Era veterans weren't treated well and they deserved more but now, studies show the vast majority of Americans hold them in high regard. These men and women held the line and re-built our military after the turbulent 60's and early 70's. I later served 30+ years in the reserves and especially after President Reagan, we didn't slow down and most of us put the past in our rear-view mirror. Thanks to the Viet Nam Era vets, the American people, in my opinion, learned their lesson and now our military is held in high regard, like them. Semper Fi, COL L
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SR Kenneth Beck
My wife told me when our children were young, and I was deployed: she would show them my picture and tell them what "daddy" was doing.
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A lot of the men I served with in Vietnam were draftees, they served with honor. They were Marines in the fullest extent of the word. Could not have ask for a better bunch of men to have served with. I don't know much about the people that went to Canada, never met a person that evaded the draft. But I'm am from the South, I'm not sure if the people from the South takes this honor more serious than anywhere else in this Country? But, I served with folks from all over the Country and from other Countries as well.
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COL Jon Lopey
Mervyn: I too was in the USMC (volunteer) during the Viet Nam Era. I agree with you that the vast majority of Americans that served during the war did so honorably and it didn't matter that much whether they were drafted or not. I retired from the reserves in 2011 after getting back into the service in the late 70's after my Viet Nam Era Service. I was a naïve kid (I went in on my 18th birthday) but it didn't take me long to realize the Marines were a great outfit and we measured one's relative worth by character and effort, not by what he or she happened to look like or where they were from. I was in good units with strong NCOs and officers. I saw some Marines with bad attitudes and most of them were non-draftees. It was a turbulent time but the vast majority of Marines were warriors I would give my life for and the vast majority of them would have done the same for me. It is an honorable profession and a just cause, even when our politicians or senior leaders on occasion screw things up. I feel sorry for my friends and others who did not serve because they missed a grand opportunity to serve others and to be a part of an organization that I think is the best in the world. Our fighting men and women have never failed and that goes for all the services, even when sometimes they were let down by politics, bad attitudes, ignorance, media indiscretions, and other events beyond their control. I would do it all again and I think most Marines and other service members would as well. The Marines and others that served in that time gave the current military a priceless gift - The American people now love and revere our military for the most part and realize what happened in Viet Nam to our returning warriors was wrong. The respect and admiration is due in large part because of those sacrifices made by Viet Nam Era veterans and of course, the professionalism, performance, and military readiness of our current Armed Forces is probably as good as it has ever been. I hope and pray we continue to heed the lessons of Korea and Viet Nam (and other wars) and remain vigilant, ready, and fully prepared for any and all enemies, foreign and domestic. Semper Fi, COL L
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Those of us that came of age in the 60's and early 70's had the draft hanging over our heads. Some sought deferments, some opted to enlist, and some took their chances on being drafted. Everyone made their choice (I enlisted) and I don't question the choices made by others, not having walked in their shoes. I have more respect for those that served than I do for those that didn't, but I harbor no ill will against anyone. That said, people who criticized Bill Clinton for dodging the draft, but now defend Donald Trump's actions to avoid it, are not credible. Nor are those that excused Clinton, but now condemn Trump. Using one's military service, or non-service, as a political hammer to beat your opposition with is despicable IMHO.
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PVT Raymond Lopez
SPC Andrew Ross - THANK GOD THEY DID NOT GIVE A PSYCHIATRIC TEST BEFORE ENLISTMENT THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE TAKEN ME!!
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COL Jon Lopey
SSGT Andrews: I have to agree with you. I too enlisted in the USMC during the Viet Nam Era but the fact is, most adults did not serve during that time. While I have more respect for men and women who served, I judge a president more on what he does in office in support of the military and our veterans (and other issues important to the people). Some presidents who served, even in time of war, were less supportive than others. Thanks for your service. Semper Fi, COL L
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