Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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Well, Clinton also was a draft dodger...
To me it's like this...that individual is the only one to answer up for being a draft dodger and live with its consequences. It doesn't bother me at all until either that person talks down about the military in the things we do and why (since they have no idea what we do) or when they attempt to wear our uniform and try to claim they are vets. I served proudly with my 20+ years and would do it all over again in a HEARTBEAT!
Some individuals simply are NOT cut out to be in the military...I rather have someone who volunteers to join than someone who's a walking problem because they hate the military and was drafted so now I have to stay alert of their negative attitude while in the military. That individual would be a huge headache because almost everyday they would gripe and complain about something.
To me it's like this...that individual is the only one to answer up for being a draft dodger and live with its consequences. It doesn't bother me at all until either that person talks down about the military in the things we do and why (since they have no idea what we do) or when they attempt to wear our uniform and try to claim they are vets. I served proudly with my 20+ years and would do it all over again in a HEARTBEAT!
Some individuals simply are NOT cut out to be in the military...I rather have someone who volunteers to join than someone who's a walking problem because they hate the military and was drafted so now I have to stay alert of their negative attitude while in the military. That individual would be a huge headache because almost everyday they would gripe and complain about something.
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For those that deliberately dodged the draft as Bill Clinton did; then hell yes. A lot of guys answered the call but some simply ran or coward down. I have no sympathy for them.
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I do not support a draft that is inequal. I have not served in the military, I was only raised in it. In this day and age, I fail to see the value in maintaining "selective service" when we are part of a country so divided.
If we must keep the draft, make it inclusive to all citizens between the ages of 18-25... Yes, this includes drafting women.
Now before anyone brings up the tired argument of, "women can't do the same things men can", I beg to differ. When have proven, for centuries, that we are more than capable of fulfilling the roles vacated by men to fulfill their draft obligations. On top of that, each and every one of you have a different set of skills that not every man can do, some are stronger, some more intellectual, some are kinetically gifted... So too are women.
If we need to have a draft, make all citizens eligible for it.
Or get rid of it altogether.
If we must keep the draft, make it inclusive to all citizens between the ages of 18-25... Yes, this includes drafting women.
Now before anyone brings up the tired argument of, "women can't do the same things men can", I beg to differ. When have proven, for centuries, that we are more than capable of fulfilling the roles vacated by men to fulfill their draft obligations. On top of that, each and every one of you have a different set of skills that not every man can do, some are stronger, some more intellectual, some are kinetically gifted... So too are women.
If we need to have a draft, make all citizens eligible for it.
Or get rid of it altogether.
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Tavia Baldwin
LTC Gary Earls what part of my comment did you not understand? Your argument is simple, one sided and does not take into consideration that people in the 80's are not the same as they are now.
You are also ignoring the fact that I clearly stated that not everyone has the same skills. I guarantee you, there are things that I can do, that you cannot and visa versa.
You claim most women don't have some mythical upper body strength to rival men, but did you consider that you don't have the same upper body strength of other men, either?
Before you reply, make sure your point pertains to the conversation.
You are also ignoring the fact that I clearly stated that not everyone has the same skills. I guarantee you, there are things that I can do, that you cannot and visa versa.
You claim most women don't have some mythical upper body strength to rival men, but did you consider that you don't have the same upper body strength of other men, either?
Before you reply, make sure your point pertains to the conversation.
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LTC Gary Earls
Tavia Baldwin - So, you have never put your life on the line for your country. The Israeli Army quit having women on the front lines. They found that when a woman who was in a front unit was shot her all of her comrades would rush to her aid and the attack on the enemy failed. Yes, they can serve in support units but not combat units.
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Tavia Baldwin
LTC Gary Earls I am not surprised that you'd use a tired and disproven stereotype and action that hasn't occurred, even in your time. I haven't served, not from a lack of trying, but I do work, and have always worked, in traditionally male careers. At most of my previous jobs I've heard guys just like you, telling me that I can't do that job or another, because I'm a weak little girl with poor upper body strength. I've also been told by men like you that I should just make myself pretty and marry a rich man. I rejected every single statement and proved each one wrong. If you actually think women are only good for "support positions", I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
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Cpl Bernard Bates
Tavia I personally think you should join the navy and get in a seal team. I think you should have a chance to prove yourself. Thats the only way you will find out if you can handle the job. I don't bother to answer civilians, but since you feel women are not given a chance. I am trying to be fair. Semper Fi.
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I was for many years but now I can't waste my time being upset. I am more bothered by thoa who claim to have been in Vietnam and never served a day in uniform.
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SPC William Hasley
Amen to that. I had not thought to bring those liars into this thread, but they are the lowest of the low.
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Ouch- I do not agree that the Draft was slavery, but I will agree that those who did not serve due to medical/educational deferments are not "draft dodgers" and I am not happy with those who fled the country to avoid it. I was subject to the Draft (number 323) and I had an educational deferment (ROTC). so my chances were slim to none to be drafted. The draft has been around since the beginning of the Civil War (Hell one of my great's enlisted for the bounty offered by someone with money to take his place) and it was unpopular then. So that makes your Patriotism assertion invalid. I was happy when the draft ended, because you get a mixed bag of people- way to often it was the under educated, poverty stricken who could not get deferments and trouble makers who were determined to get thrown out. The poor less educated provided great soldiers cause they wanted to better themselves, the trouble makers were just that. Originally the draft was suppose to an equality maker, but as always those with the cash could find/use the loopholes .
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SPC William Hasley
Today’s people tend to forget when VietNam happened. Those of us who were drafted didn’t see it as “Slavery”, but did see it as a fact of life. We were Baby Boomers. Our fathers all served in WWII. Many of our Grandfathers were in WWI. Our father’s friends who were just a bit younger served in Korea. Military service, by and large, was a normal situation. Many of us thought the dodgers and card-burners were simply silly. We didn’t learn about the political chicanery and foolishness until we were older and smarter. We went because we thought we we supposed to go and we did what we thought we were supposed to do.
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Good post, but I do blame anyone in politics who beats his (her) chest about military power, and hasn't walked the walk. Especially when they make deprecatory remarks about those who served, and the honored dead! Not all POTUS served, but some didn't act disrespectfully toward serving Americans and Veterans. One, on the other hand, not only has done that, but cited MacArthur and Patton in at least two presidential debates -- when he probably knows zip about the men, two of our most flamboyant and often outrageous generals -- and also had a military school background.
Conspiracy lovers: of course, now witnesses have come forward to swear that he bribed a physician (their father) to give him 'a doctor's excuse' from the draft, heel bone spurs.
I have bone spurs, and I sure couldn't have marched with them, but mine took 40-years to manifest themselves; the VA is treating them finally, and I'm back to taking two-mile walks every day, but there is still pain and collateral ankle damage. I sure as heck couldn't play tennis, tho riding around eighteen holes of golf in an electric cart wouldn't be too bad!
Yes, if you avoided the dreadful draft, at least don't crow about it. I didn't want to go, but I was 1A, was inducted, and served my term. So was my best friend, also in basic at Ft. Lewis with me, and he was KIA in 'Nam six months after we raised our right hands and took that step forward. I couldn't face his folks for years... their only son. Still makes me depressed. So, tread carefully, draft dodgers!
Conspiracy lovers: of course, now witnesses have come forward to swear that he bribed a physician (their father) to give him 'a doctor's excuse' from the draft, heel bone spurs.
I have bone spurs, and I sure couldn't have marched with them, but mine took 40-years to manifest themselves; the VA is treating them finally, and I'm back to taking two-mile walks every day, but there is still pain and collateral ankle damage. I sure as heck couldn't play tennis, tho riding around eighteen holes of golf in an electric cart wouldn't be too bad!
Yes, if you avoided the dreadful draft, at least don't crow about it. I didn't want to go, but I was 1A, was inducted, and served my term. So was my best friend, also in basic at Ft. Lewis with me, and he was KIA in 'Nam six months after we raised our right hands and took that step forward. I couldn't face his folks for years... their only son. Still makes me depressed. So, tread carefully, draft dodgers!
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your service, and for sharing your thoughts on this issue.
Not that it's pertinent to the issue of the draft as servitude, but a little research will reveal there are no witnesses attesting to a false bone spur diagnosis. Just two leftist politically motivated daughters of a deceased doctor citing here-say with no way to cooberate their story. Respectful Regards.
Not that it's pertinent to the issue of the draft as servitude, but a little research will reveal there are no witnesses attesting to a false bone spur diagnosis. Just two leftist politically motivated daughters of a deceased doctor citing here-say with no way to cooberate their story. Respectful Regards.
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SP5 Wick Humble
SSG Gerhard S. - Now that's funny; we hear nothing but wild, unsubstantiated, 'sworn-to' fairy-tales from the Trump crowd, but Demo claims are just hearsay. But if a Doc could be bought, why would there be 'witnesses'? As the Maga's say, 'everybody says..." Thanks for your service too, Sarge--neither of us punked!
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SP5 Wick Humble -
~~~CNN~~~
The daughters of a Queens foot doctor say their late father diagnosed President Donald Trump with bone spurs to help him avoid the Vietnam War draft as a “favor” to his father Fred Trump..
Dr. Larry Braunstein, a podiatrist who died in 2007, often told the story of providing Donald Trump with the diagnosis of bone spurs in his heels so he could be exempt from military service, his two daughters – Dr. Elysa Braunstein and Sharon Kessel – told the New York Times.
~~~CNN~~~
The daughters of a Queens foot doctor say their late father diagnosed President Donald Trump with bone spurs to help him avoid the Vietnam War draft as a “favor” to his father Fred Trump..
Dr. Larry Braunstein, a podiatrist who died in 2007, often told the story of providing Donald Trump with the diagnosis of bone spurs in his heels so he could be exempt from military service, his two daughters – Dr. Elysa Braunstein and Sharon Kessel – told the New York Times.
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I was going to be drafted, but decided on the Delayed Entry Program, "Airborne Unassigned", that delayed me going in for about 2 months, Draft #5. I don't think the draft is a bad thing, I think everyone should serve their nation, either in the military or as a Peace Corp volunteer or equivalent, as they had back then. Maybe it would get some of the protesters and looters off the street and give them a new prospective on the world. If they want free education tie this on to this service.
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To a point, YES. Those who just couldn't kill, I have no problem with. Those who knew what was going on and went to Canada, I understand. Those who plain out lied and got fake doctor reports--HANG.
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