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https://www.facebook.com/12Bravos/videos/ [login to see] 26538/
Leadership question.... when is corrective training actually correcting the problem, and when is it making the problem worse? I'm a firm believer in smoking someone rather than doing paperwork for minor issues, but there is a time and place for everything. In this video, the situation is made worse being security was compromised to get what result? Would you do this or wait till later and deal with it in private?
Leadership question.... when is corrective training actually correcting the problem, and when is it making the problem worse? I'm a firm believer in smoking someone rather than doing paperwork for minor issues, but there is a time and place for everything. In this video, the situation is made worse being security was compromised to get what result? Would you do this or wait till later and deal with it in private?
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Leadership
Leadership Development
UCMJ
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 6
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Welcome to basic Airborne training and I've had to do that when I was enlisted even though I did not think I was wrong. As an NCO you are lucky I am only doing this to you and not any kind of military justice which if you don't learn the lesson can come in the future. Your brothers and your leaders are counting on you as part of the team an we do not accept a lapse of duty.
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SSG Warren Swan
I'm 100% with you on this. But if we're on mission and you screw up, I'm not going to stop the mission to smoke your bags. If I have to stop the mission to deal with you on that level and I actually go through with it, I've failed. I won't leave my trucks open or my Joes in compromising positions like in the video. There's too much to loose. Now when we get to where we're going or back to the FOB, rest assured it's on and poppin.
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SSG Keith Amacher
Brother I had a stupid LT I worked with at Ft. Hood 2nd Armor tell me on POMCUS if we went to war he would go to Canada and was only in for his education. He knew I was ex Special Forces. I told him you don't have to worry about the enemy I will shoot you in the back myself on your way out and I meant it. He did not say a word. I was also the Military Police Physical Security Inspector and Crime Prevention NCO for the Brigade and Intelligence. I reported to the COL and CSM and tried to steal weapons at 3am in the field and checked all of our Arms Rooms and Motor Pools. I was told by authority just don't get yourself shot when going after the nuclear capabilities. I do not accept anything less from a subordinate and if so I need to educate them...
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The video to me looks like a perfect example of "corrective training." Sometimes, punishment by "quarter decking" as we lovingly called it in boot camp, is preferred. As a LCpl, I once got and ass chewing by my Plt Sgt that was so vigorous that he was spitting in my face. I don't know if the NCO's he brought with us saw the look on my face as I was about to punch him in the face or if they recognized what the Sgt was doing, but they jumped between us pretty quick. He later got pulled in the Lt's office with the Gunny and we heard his ass chewing from outside the shop.
Another time, I got written up for having a crypto cord in my pocket while training. I fought it of course and won, but that isn't the point.
The punishment must fit the crime, so to speak. And sometimes a little pain from exercise is a good way to leave a mental mark on the person for breaking a rule or being disrespectful of authority, not to mention it leaves the person a little bit stronger than before. And sometimes, messing with a person's free time is a good way to establish boundaries they should not be crossing. And sometimes, when the rule breaking is egregious, it's a good thing to write them up. It just depends on what they did and if it is repeat behavior.
Another time, I got written up for having a crypto cord in my pocket while training. I fought it of course and won, but that isn't the point.
The punishment must fit the crime, so to speak. And sometimes a little pain from exercise is a good way to leave a mental mark on the person for breaking a rule or being disrespectful of authority, not to mention it leaves the person a little bit stronger than before. And sometimes, messing with a person's free time is a good way to establish boundaries they should not be crossing. And sometimes, when the rule breaking is egregious, it's a good thing to write them up. It just depends on what they did and if it is repeat behavior.
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1) is it going to fix the problem?
2) is it related to the deficiency?
3) are you willing to be there (or do it yourself) while it is the correction is being done?
If you can't answer yes to all three of these things, don't do it.
Corrective training is fine, as long as it is actually going to CORRECT the problem (#1). To do that, it must be related to said problem (#2), which in turn requires appropriate supervision and guidance as to what the problem is (#3).
In the video, we are not privy to #3, but generally speaking the senior person is not violating any of the main rules, and does not appear to be hazarding the junior's safety, and is also maintaining a modicum of "privacy" to SSG Warren Swan (to a degree that can be considered "relatively acceptable"). We might get a "what happened?" But the question would be answered with "Resolved a situation." Although, this appears "Public" at first glance, it is not taking place within earshot, which has always been the (USMC) cultural deliminator. (the Let's take this outside, behind closed doors standard). And "on the spot" corrections need to be resolved immediately as opposed to later lest they lose their impact in the face of operational needs.
2) is it related to the deficiency?
3) are you willing to be there (or do it yourself) while it is the correction is being done?
If you can't answer yes to all three of these things, don't do it.
Corrective training is fine, as long as it is actually going to CORRECT the problem (#1). To do that, it must be related to said problem (#2), which in turn requires appropriate supervision and guidance as to what the problem is (#3).
In the video, we are not privy to #3, but generally speaking the senior person is not violating any of the main rules, and does not appear to be hazarding the junior's safety, and is also maintaining a modicum of "privacy" to SSG Warren Swan (to a degree that can be considered "relatively acceptable"). We might get a "what happened?" But the question would be answered with "Resolved a situation." Although, this appears "Public" at first glance, it is not taking place within earshot, which has always been the (USMC) cultural deliminator. (the Let's take this outside, behind closed doors standard). And "on the spot" corrections need to be resolved immediately as opposed to later lest they lose their impact in the face of operational needs.
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SSG Warren Swan
I agree with your points, and the correction should correlate to the offense. That is where many get it wrong. They take corrective training and turn it into corrective "punishment" which is something NCO's don't do. The commander gives the punishment, we just inflict the pain.
In the video, you're obviously not on a FOC, camp, or COB, so unless this is a monumental mess up, this shouldn't have happened. You cannot go in on someone even if you think you're secure. More than likely you're not. The person smoking the Joe has his door open. I can't count the number of times I was hemmed up for that being complacent until it finally clicked. Deal with the problem as soon as you can, but deal with the problem at a time and place where no one else can be harmed by the decision. I wish there was more context to the video, but just looking at it from here, it wasn't the best decision to do at the time.
In the video, you're obviously not on a FOC, camp, or COB, so unless this is a monumental mess up, this shouldn't have happened. You cannot go in on someone even if you think you're secure. More than likely you're not. The person smoking the Joe has his door open. I can't count the number of times I was hemmed up for that being complacent until it finally clicked. Deal with the problem as soon as you can, but deal with the problem at a time and place where no one else can be harmed by the decision. I wish there was more context to the video, but just looking at it from here, it wasn't the best decision to do at the time.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SSG Warren Swan - Right, but this may have been something as simple as "Forgot Essential but 'not needed TODAY' piece of gear" (but could have got us killed tomorrow). This isn't something a piece of paperwork can fix, but an object lesson can, and will actually be appreciated.
The Public/Private thing is a cultural difference. You and I are simpatico on 90% of things, but I consider taking someone out on a catwalk/breezeway "private" even if there are Marines down 40 feet away. It's just a cultural norm for us. Doesn't make it right, just "normal." In the video, I consider that a private interaction, with the guys taking (talking in) the video invading said privacy. I'm probably wrong in that assessment, but that's more a background thing. If these guys had an actual space they "could" go to, they absolutely should.. but work with what you can.
The Public/Private thing is a cultural difference. You and I are simpatico on 90% of things, but I consider taking someone out on a catwalk/breezeway "private" even if there are Marines down 40 feet away. It's just a cultural norm for us. Doesn't make it right, just "normal." In the video, I consider that a private interaction, with the guys taking (talking in) the video invading said privacy. I'm probably wrong in that assessment, but that's more a background thing. If these guys had an actual space they "could" go to, they absolutely should.. but work with what you can.
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Maj John Bell
Full disclosure -- I'm not on Facebook, so I didn't view the clip. So the following may not apply. As an officer I had a policy and all the NCO's and SNCO's knew it. If you are sending a Marine to me for discipline, he does not belong in the Marine corps any more. The offense may not merit discharge, but it's going in the Marine's book and he's going to know that unless he changes his ways... he's going to go home early with bad paper.
I never disciplined an enlisted Marine "unofficially." If he was in my charge, I told him to find the senior SNCO or NCO between me and him in the chain of command, tell that SNCO or NCO his side of the story, then have that SNCO or NCO find me as soon as it was convenient. I then gave my version of the events to the SNCO or NCO. The only detail I wanted to know... Have you handled this yet?
I never disciplined an enlisted Marine "unofficially." If he was in my charge, I told him to find the senior SNCO or NCO between me and him in the chain of command, tell that SNCO or NCO his side of the story, then have that SNCO or NCO find me as soon as it was convenient. I then gave my version of the events to the SNCO or NCO. The only detail I wanted to know... Have you handled this yet?
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