Posted on Feb 17, 2020
MAJ Vance Fleming
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In an all-volunteer military, there are a certain amount of recruits who just do not make it through basic or the job-specific (AFSC, MOS, whatever the Navy and USMC calls it) training. They are discharged for failure to adapt or to meet standards.

What would have happened to these conscripted members who were unable to meet the minimal standards? Were they just pushed through the system after the training was "presented" to them without having to prove they could actually do the job? Would they have been honorably discharged?
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CPT Lawrence Cable
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First thing is that the classification system was designed to weed out those that couldn't perform because of obvious physical or mental conditions, the designation 4F was for those deemed unfit. If you actually made it to the painted feet, the standards were completely different. From my observation of the remains of the Draft Army when I came in and anecdotally from those that served during the period, there just weren't many standards for the draftees. Couldn't pass PT? You will get in shape in Vietnam. Overweight? Not a problem. A marine friend that is a bit older than I am that served in Marine Infantry claimed that half of his platoon wouldn't have passed the IQ test required today (1966/67 time frame). While I am of the opinion that we put out people that with a bit of motivation would be acceptable soldiers today, the reason for the standards we have today was the Cluster**** that the Vietnam Draft made of the services.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
>1 y
SPC Richard Zacke - He would not be getting Majors pay while a SSG in the regular Army, but if he had ten years as an Officer, he would retire at his highest rank and pay level.
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SPC Richard Zacke
SPC Richard Zacke
>1 y
CPT Lawrence Cable Just going by what SSG Hutenstein told us. We were young pups he took under his wing. But thanks for the info.
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
2 mo
Judges in Court gave criminals a choice of JAIL or the Army. (1962).
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SFC Ronald Miller
SFC Ronald Miller
2 mo
Funny thing to say as I was given that choice as the judge was tired of seeing me in traffic court? I tried the Marines first but they had a wait list? Then the Navy but they had a longer wait list? The Air Force was next but they had the longest wait list?? So Across the street was the ARMY recruiter and two weeks later on 14 Sept. 1967 I began my Military Service. 4yrs. active and 22 yrs. Reserves & National Guard. I took a 15.5 yr. break from 1981-1996 Then rejoined the Guard and finished with the Army Reserve in 2007. SFC. Miller Ret. ( Also ... I managed to fit in 26 yrs. of Law Enforcement. )
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SGT Philip Roncari
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I served 1965/68 enlisted but with many drafted men during that period,everyone made it through training ,if not the Army had recycling programs which had a small number of personnel fail,these men were returned to civilian life with a general discharge I think,also had experiences with Pres.Johnson’s 100,000 program in Vietnam ,replacements for Infantry units,piss poor decision by the bean counters in my estimation.
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SFC Ronald Miller
SFC Ronald Miller
2 mo
1968 ... Great Time in AMERICA every cycle in A. I. T. was being sent to NAM for TET our MP unit was placed on hold for a 5 day period and 60 of us were sent to KOREA day after the Pueblo was captured by North Korea??? Yes Sir! Great times!!
SFC MILLER RET.
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SGT Philip Roncari
SGT Philip Roncari
2 mo
SFC Ronald Miller
1968…I was at Ft.Polk, AIT Committee group instructor for 11b /11c ,had just returned from Vietnam ,just about every one of the trainees were headed to that hell hole,certainly wasn’t a great time for them,Phil.
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SP5 Bernard Chandler
SP5 Bernard Chandler
1 d
SGT Philip Roncari - So, we are a tad off subject. You mention the Mattel Shootin Shell. I was lucky and exchanged my M16 E2 with someone in the artillery who was issued an M14 and was not using it.
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SGT Philip Roncari
SGT Philip Roncari
1 d
SP5 Bernard Chandler
I’m never off the subject of that “Mattie Mattel “ piece of junk we were issued back in 1966 on our boat ride over to good old Vietnam,after training at Ft.Lewis from Basic through AIT after unit training for ten months with the reliable M14,and to be issued a unreliable,weak weapon system was a foolish and dangerous mistake, Welcome Home Brothers.
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Sgt Field Radio Operator
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Edited >1 y ago
I served from 1968 to 1972. If a recruit was fat they were sent to the fat farm and there was a platoon for attitude reajustment. If they could not hack it, they did not graduate Boot Camp and were discharged.
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SGT Carl Blas
SGT Carl Blas
3 mo
Same for me 72 to 75 at Bragg, the motivation platoon was called CCF (conduct correction facility) some that went there said, it worked for them to adjust their attitude. If CCF didn't work, they went to the brigg for who knows for how long, or what happened to you.

The Fat Farm did PT all day, and meals were adjusted to loose weight, if that didn't work, you were out. The guys did always try to help the Fat guys, giving them advise and taking them out to excersize more, to motivate them.
We always put the fat guys out front of the daily 2 or 5 mile run, to help them move and to keep running. Some fell out, Well, see you later.
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During the draft period, what happened to conscripted members who could not make it past the initial training?
CW5 Jack Cardwell
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"Alternative Service Employer Network
In any return to conscription the Director of Selective Service is responsible for finding alternative civilian work for registrants who have been exempted from military service and training because of conscientious objection to both combatant and noncombatant military service. The Director will place these registrants with members of the Alternative Service Employer Network (ASEN), a pool of eligible civilian employers who agree to provide jobs to Alternative Service Workers (ASWs) in a draft. The work offered by these employers must contribute to the maintenance of the national health, safety, or interest."

If they fail willingly then it becomes a military justice issue.
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SP5 Bernard Chandler
SP5 Bernard Chandler
1 d
I never heard of that critter.
The Alternative Service Employer Network (ASEN) is a lesser-known but important component of the U.S. Selective Service System, particularly relevant in the context of conscientious objectors during a draft.

The unit I was in made conscientious objectors carry the Radio. I got my position in the special reactionary force because I would carry a radio and a weapon, relieving the assigned conscientious objector.
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Lt Col Jim Coe
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In the late Vietnam era, draftees mostly went to the Army so I only saw a limited sample in the Air Force. If a new recruit failed to make to through Air Force basic training, then my guess is they were discharged, probably with a General. Tech school was a different matter. If a new Airman Basic or Airman Third couldn't get through a tech school, such as aircraft maintenance, then the Air Force tried to reclassify them to a different tech school that better suited their capabilities and the needs of the Air Force. Failing that they were also discharged, normally a General discharge. A few "bad apples" who had recurring encounters with law enforcement or other bad behaviors were discharged with a General/less-than-honorable or sometimes court martialed and sent home with a Bad Conduct Discharge (if they avoided confinement). For a short period of time in the 1970s I think the Air Force accepted recruits who didn't make the minimum scores to enter the Service. They set up remedial reading, writing, and math classes for these folks and worked to bring them up to minimum standards before they went to training.

Officers did sometimes fail to complete their training. I saw pilot trainees who couldn't hack the flying transferred to navigator training (if they were doing well in the classroom) or to other schools so they could complete their service commitment. Don't know what happened if an officer failed in some other school. Perhaps also a General discharge.
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SFC Jo Ann Klawitter
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Back in 1970 we had a young lady named Teresa Fly from West Virginia
She tried everything to get out, and none of it worked
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
3 mo
Not everything, being with child would have gotten her out.
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SGT Carl Blas
SGT Carl Blas
3 mo
We had a guy in the platoon at Bragg in the 82nd ABN, the army just sent him to jail, and that's it, never saw or heard of him again.
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Cpl Gabriel F.
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Marine Corps recruit training Parris Island rejected recruit trainees after a punishing 6 months in most cases. General Conduct discharge or General with a medical for injuries and mental problems. Getting dropped from a platoon was the beginning of a very bad time for "the maggot"s. Brig, correctional custody, crap details for sick, lame, crazy. Observed some painting with leg and arm casts once marching through third battalion area.
Early one Sunday morning a large block formation marched across the parade deck towards the old brick PX area. On their return they were in civilian clothes marching in the direction of the gate road. We were cleaning and not supposed to look out of the windows but we did. Scuttlebutt from a pick up had it they boarded buses out of site of first battalion area. The pickup had been recycled for three months before joining our training platoon.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
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Some received a General Discharge although under Honorable conditions WASN'T an Honorable discharge. There were different reasons for separation but in those cases they were deemed unfit for Military service even though they had been on active duty. Most had never made it through training but not all the reasons are the same any more than all the people being the same.
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CPO Paul Klein
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I enlisted rather than be drafted. In the draft lottery, my birthday was number 7. During boot camp, we had several individuals that would have been rejected in today’s service. One was a very large individual, not quite sure why the Navy accepted him, but he had a very positive attitude. He worked hard to make it through boot camp, but had trouble understanding simple things, like left from right, etc. He pushed himself really hard, but was discharged after 4 weeks as unfit for naval service. A few weeks into electronics A school, I received a letter from his mom, thanking me and a couple of others who had tried to help him. She said he received his draft notice and reported to the Army a week after his Navy discharge. He died in VietNam three weeks after he arrived there. His mom said he was always slow, and always big. Not sure how he was passed through basic training, but was really sad to hear of his passing.
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CSM Thomas Ray
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During this period a lot of recruits were recycled again and again, until they met the standards, pretty much if you got drafted, you would serve. I had a soldier on my team in Viet Nam that could not even read; I would read his letters from home to him. He enlisted after he was told the Army would teach him to read and write.
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SGT Carl Blas
SGT Carl Blas
3 mo
I had one British Samoa friend that enlisted because he was told if he enlisted for 4 years in the army, he would automaticly become a US citizen, don't know if he ever did. I had two Filipino friends, the same thing, if enlisted for 4 years, they would auto, be a US citizen.
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SGT Bill Braniff
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I enlisted in July 1966. In my BCT unit we had one person who was absolutely a mental case, who honestly couldn't tie his boot laces, or dress properly, and no he wasn't putting this on. We had another guy who couldn't red or write, add or subtract. Quit school at a very young age..
It appeared they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. After the cycle completed, they did discharge the mentally incompetent guy, but the guy with no education went on to be a grunt. The strange thing about all of this was that, about 75-80% of our BCT group were OCS candidates!
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SGT Ruben Lozada
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Good afternoon @MAJ Vance Fleming. Excellent post. Thank you for sharing this Sir. :->
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MSG Reid Zohfeld
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Conscripted is absolutely the wrong term
They where drafted into the military
Where conscripts will serve their time in various positions in government organization
So as a public affairs officer you need to consider that
Most ineligible or unable to make it through basic training where medical out or less than honorable depending on the situation
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SPC John Veenstra
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Think what you want, but I was there. In 1966 I was 20 years old and had not been drafted. I was classified 1Y marginally fit for service in case of a National Emergency. I was overweight, had stomach ulcers and bleeding hemorrhoids. That was the results from my first physical at the draft board at 17 years of age. Summer of 66 they recalled me and said that ALL 1Y's were being reclassified, because President Johnson declared war and that was a national emergency!
In the reception center we had one man who was 1Y because of a heart murmur. They said no big deal your drafted. Two days in we were double timed to the mess hall, this man fell down and was taken to the medics. He had a heart attack. I hope he got a medical discharge. I recognized a lot of guys I knew that had not been drafted when they were young, because they were in Jail. I guess juvy records were sealed at 18 so it was now ok to draft them.
I guess I must have been one of those morons, because once I was in I volunteered for Vietnam Combat duty. Myself and 30 other morons who had done the same were sent to Fort Riley Kansas. The 9th infantry division was training there to go to Vietnam as a Division. We had men in basic who did not even know their Right side from their Left side. In my company we had many men who had trouble with the minimum required physical tests. We were regrouped and tested again so we could graduate Basic. The NCO's in charge were told by the Captain that we would be given passing grades.
We had 2 men that went AWOL and as far as I know wound up in Federal prison. I noticed at graduation that all those with high physical scores were sent to infantry training. While myself and others who took the second test were assigned to support outfits like Artillery.
Thinking that if someone was mentally or physically unfit for a job and would get an Honorable discharge is laughable.
In 1967 we went to Vietnam, I was in commo, wireman and radio. I will say this some of the bravest and most courageous men I knew had trouble writing their own name. They were also at maybe a second grade reading level. However these men that I knew personally had won several Silver and Bronze stars, so I guess you don't have to be a genius to be a hero. Sadly some of those names are engraved in that sad wall in Washington D.C.
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SFC Ronald Miller
SFC Ronald Miller
2 mo
HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!
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SP5 David Dowdy
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I was RA in 1969. During the medical that was given prior to being sworn in. The majority of men going thru the medical stations were drafted. One fellow had a STD so everyone had him pee in their cup. Hearing test after the tone they either did nothing or pressed the button. Needless say everyone was medically cleared and sworn in! Nobody failed!!
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