Posted on Sep 3, 2015
Have you heard about the Army using new fragmenting ammunition?
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"There's a myth that [expanding/fragmenting bullets] are prohibited in international armed conflict, but that doesn't make any sense now," Jackson said.
"After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of ASYMMETRIC WARFARE."
The Army is moving closer to adopting a new standard issue pistol. The Army is looking for a more modern sidearm that can use additional accessories. In addition to this the Army wants to move away from the standard ball ammunition and is looking at hollow point and fragmenting ammo types. The R.I.P 9mm is an example of what fragmenting ammunition will look like. This ammo will have much greater destructive force than ammunition previously used for standard issue sidearms. Here's a link to what it looks like and how it performs. http://mic.com/articles/80211/a-new-bullet-has-been-invented-this-is-what-it-looks-like
"After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of ASYMMETRIC WARFARE."
The Army is moving closer to adopting a new standard issue pistol. The Army is looking for a more modern sidearm that can use additional accessories. In addition to this the Army wants to move away from the standard ball ammunition and is looking at hollow point and fragmenting ammo types. The R.I.P 9mm is an example of what fragmenting ammunition will look like. This ammo will have much greater destructive force than ammunition previously used for standard issue sidearms. Here's a link to what it looks like and how it performs. http://mic.com/articles/80211/a-new-bullet-has-been-invented-this-is-what-it-looks-like
Ammo
Firearms and Guns
Troops
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 26
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People confuse the various Geneva Convention iterations that deal with this. It doesn't. The Hague Convention of 1899 did but the US did not sign off on the article that dealt with expanding bullets. So the reality is that under International Law, the US isn't prohibited, nor ever was from using expanding bullets. There's this notion of "excessive damage" which really means "who the heck knows?" so that's pretty useless. The reality is if we use this stuff for generalized use, the enemy will too and will make the argument that whatever they may have signed in the past is invalid if it puts them at an inherent disadvantage. That won't matter either as the victor will get to write history and conduct war crimes courts.
My sense is every action will have a reaction, hence the US will think very carefully about what gets used on what, how, why, and will likely stay away from major international blow back. Remember we could be legally correct but suffer in the court of world opinion.
My sense is every action will have a reaction, hence the US will think very carefully about what gets used on what, how, why, and will likely stay away from major international blow back. Remember we could be legally correct but suffer in the court of world opinion.
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SSG Timothy Miller
No, but that is about to change. They are no longer going to abide by the Hague Convention.
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SSG Timothy Miller
Also, the statement that people confuse the Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention is very true. They are NOT the same. It is also true that the US never signed the Hague agreement. BUT, the US honored/abided by the agreement because mst of our Allies DID "sign" the agreement. In the past five years, the DOD has sought legal opinion and concluded that we (DOD-Americans) will NO LONGER abide or honor this agreement. I'm glad too. How many Americans have spilled their own blood (in the past 100 + years) had they had a better round to use on our enemy????
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SSG Timothy Miller
DAH, I 'thought' I was responding to the OP's opening statement on fragmenting rounds.....
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SGT Beau Thomas
I constantly was told by almost every young person that it is against the Geneva Convention to use excessive force, .50 cal BMG, hollow points, etc.. When the subject came up. I would tell them the Geneva Convention pertains to POW's and the US is not a signatory of The Hague Convention. I had a bear of a time convincing the ignorant. I am constantly astounded by the number of people who wouldjust believe what they hear without so much as a thread of research. i tried to show everyone of them how easy it is to look up some facts on their smartphone.
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It was announced a while ago that the Army would switch to fragmenting rounds because of better lethality and less overpenetration. I just wonder how long it will take to get them.
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Not sure, but I think in one of those treaties somewhere in there you are supposed to wear a uniform and you can't kill women and children.
Not only do I think we need these, but they should be soaked in pigs blood, by drunk women in shorty shorts, that have their hair uncovered, while giving opinions to men.
Allah Snackbar!
Not only do I think we need these, but they should be soaked in pigs blood, by drunk women in shorty shorts, that have their hair uncovered, while giving opinions to men.
Allah Snackbar!
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Interesting round. Interesting that we make rounds strickly to cause more suffering in the intended target. Good Article.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Didn't we remove the fleschette rounds from our stocks because they were deemed to cause to much suffering?
I'm all for bringing them back in addition to this fragmentation round. I never had the opportunity to shoot either one and I would love to.
I'm all for bringing them back in addition to this fragmentation round. I never had the opportunity to shoot either one and I would love to.
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CPT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - See the link in the original post, the round you refer to is the one shown.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
CPT (Join to see) Check, which is why it goes out the window. If there are two (or more) Signatory nations "fighting it out" all Hague rules apply. If we come in, because we are NOT a signatory, and have entered the conflict, the the rules no longer apply. Got to love international treaties.
Although we "adhere to the spirit" of the convention, our presence negates its rules. It's a catch-22 of sorts. Us talking about the Hague Convention is like Switzlerland talking about nuking South Korea. It just doesn't apply.
Although we "adhere to the spirit" of the convention, our presence negates its rules. It's a catch-22 of sorts. Us talking about the Hague Convention is like Switzlerland talking about nuking South Korea. It just doesn't apply.
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MCPO Roger Collins
Personally, I am for using anything that will protect the homeland, our troops and end conflict/wars. War is Hell!
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LTC Yinon Weiss
Fragmenting bullets actually have weaker penetration potential, since they fragment on impact. However, virtually none of our enemy wears body armor, so no real down side there.
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CPT (Join to see) I don't see us using this as a standard ammo for a long time. I think the whole area of non-lethal needs to be developed as we police and military come under increasing pressure if we do ANY harm. Every weapons discharge in theater requires a book of justification and even with it, expect a GOMR to come your way.
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This reminds me of a presentation by a Chemical Corps officer who made a presentation to our class at Infantry Officer Candidate School. He opened with the comment that he was one of "those" who killed people by putting them to sleep unlike the combat arms who killed them "humanely" by ripping their bodies apart with shot and shell. Isn't it time we "manned up" and admitted that killing is killing and that the most humane course is to do it quickly and efficiently? If fragmenting rounds serve this purpose, use them...
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SA Harold Hansmann
Make some up in 12 gauge and let me test them out on deer. ( which is very similar to humans in weight and body mass)
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"96 grains of pure, unadulterated hate. A desire to inflict suffering. Period." if you break into someone's house, I don't see a bad side to this. You made a decision to break into the house, and the homeowner made a decision to make sure you NEVER forget it. I probably won't buy any, but I do like it.
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I have seen a ballistics gel in which a .45 fragmenting round had been fired and while there was alot of fragments and damage as the round penetrated, the main part of the round still penetrated 8-10 inches into the gel. I think that would definitely take the fight out of somebody. Overall, a really impressive round, IMO.
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SSG Timothy Miller
I agree. IMO, the .45 JHP (jacketed hollow point) is the best all around bullet/caliber. I personally carry this round in my concealed carry set up.
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MAJ (Join to see)
You should pick up some of these fragmenting rounds. They are a little pricey but if you ever need to shoot one, it'll be worth it.
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I hadn't heard but it sounds like the right approach to defeating your enemy.
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I am of the opinion that frag rounds like that open the door for other even worse rounds... coming back at us. There is always a give and take, I for one don't want to see us get hit with the take part.
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I was going to post some BS But CAPT. KEVEN B.s post covers it every will.Aand I agree with it whole heartedly. I love the common sense here on RP.
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well ... as long as we can handle it when enemy throw the same thing at us :)
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If the army or any legitimate uniformed service ever adopts the R.I.P. round, then we know someone's made a friend in congress. That round is the biggest load of gimmick horse s*** ever produced. It has no place in any application. War, self defense, hunting, or sport. None of it. It has been proven to lose far too much energy. Literally not even worth making it a fishing weight.
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While it does not necessarily apply to military rounds one of the reasons that most law enforcement and many civilians use fragmenting rounds is that they don't over penetrate. If I shoot you with one I won't also kill the three people behind you. As for "rules of war" etc. I would like to know exactly which enemy that the US has ever engaged that concerned themselves about the Geneva Conventions or any other such rules?
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT Jerrold Pesz did you see the ballistic testing video provided by SSG Neumann in this thread? If you didn't check it out, it addresses the penetrating issue you mentioned. With regards to the Geneva Convention ...we know.
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SGT Jerrold Pesz
CPT (Join to see) - I both read the link and bookmarked it for future study. For many years I used Corbon 115 JHP +P for duty ammo based on testing that I had read in several law enforcement magazines and this link seems to bear out their results. Thanks for pointing me at the link.
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SSG Jason Neumann
Well, with some rounds even different calibers, there are some that over penetrate. It would be the best case scenario that when you engage on a target that 1. Be sure there are no other non-hostile targets beyond the intended target 2. Well aimed shot to the torso, which is the best area (since it's large) to engage. However, we all know there are Murphy's Law and anything bad that can happen will. There are individuals who do these benchmarks, which aids us in the overall decision of what choices to make in a desired round to place in our EDC.
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