Posted on Sep 3, 2015
Have you heard about the Army using new fragmenting ammunition?
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"There's a myth that [expanding/fragmenting bullets] are prohibited in international armed conflict, but that doesn't make any sense now," Jackson said.
"After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of ASYMMETRIC WARFARE."
The Army is moving closer to adopting a new standard issue pistol. The Army is looking for a more modern sidearm that can use additional accessories. In addition to this the Army wants to move away from the standard ball ammunition and is looking at hollow point and fragmenting ammo types. The R.I.P 9mm is an example of what fragmenting ammunition will look like. This ammo will have much greater destructive force than ammunition previously used for standard issue sidearms. Here's a link to what it looks like and how it performs. http://mic.com/articles/80211/a-new-bullet-has-been-invented-this-is-what-it-looks-like
"After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of ASYMMETRIC WARFARE."
The Army is moving closer to adopting a new standard issue pistol. The Army is looking for a more modern sidearm that can use additional accessories. In addition to this the Army wants to move away from the standard ball ammunition and is looking at hollow point and fragmenting ammo types. The R.I.P 9mm is an example of what fragmenting ammunition will look like. This ammo will have much greater destructive force than ammunition previously used for standard issue sidearms. Here's a link to what it looks like and how it performs. http://mic.com/articles/80211/a-new-bullet-has-been-invented-this-is-what-it-looks-like
Ammo
Firearms and Guns
Troops
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 26
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I have seen a ballistics gel in which a .45 fragmenting round had been fired and while there was alot of fragments and damage as the round penetrated, the main part of the round still penetrated 8-10 inches into the gel. I think that would definitely take the fight out of somebody. Overall, a really impressive round, IMO.
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SSG Timothy Miller
I agree. IMO, the .45 JHP (jacketed hollow point) is the best all around bullet/caliber. I personally carry this round in my concealed carry set up.
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MAJ (Join to see)
You should pick up some of these fragmenting rounds. They are a little pricey but if you ever need to shoot one, it'll be worth it.
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I hadn't heard but it sounds like the right approach to defeating your enemy.
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I am of the opinion that frag rounds like that open the door for other even worse rounds... coming back at us. There is always a give and take, I for one don't want to see us get hit with the take part.
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I was going to post some BS But CAPT. KEVEN B.s post covers it every will.Aand I agree with it whole heartedly. I love the common sense here on RP.
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well ... as long as we can handle it when enemy throw the same thing at us :)
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If the army or any legitimate uniformed service ever adopts the R.I.P. round, then we know someone's made a friend in congress. That round is the biggest load of gimmick horse s*** ever produced. It has no place in any application. War, self defense, hunting, or sport. None of it. It has been proven to lose far too much energy. Literally not even worth making it a fishing weight.
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While it does not necessarily apply to military rounds one of the reasons that most law enforcement and many civilians use fragmenting rounds is that they don't over penetrate. If I shoot you with one I won't also kill the three people behind you. As for "rules of war" etc. I would like to know exactly which enemy that the US has ever engaged that concerned themselves about the Geneva Conventions or any other such rules?
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT Jerrold Pesz did you see the ballistic testing video provided by SSG Neumann in this thread? If you didn't check it out, it addresses the penetrating issue you mentioned. With regards to the Geneva Convention ...we know.
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SGT Jerrold Pesz
CPT (Join to see) - I both read the link and bookmarked it for future study. For many years I used Corbon 115 JHP +P for duty ammo based on testing that I had read in several law enforcement magazines and this link seems to bear out their results. Thanks for pointing me at the link.
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SSG Jason Neumann
Well, with some rounds even different calibers, there are some that over penetrate. It would be the best case scenario that when you engage on a target that 1. Be sure there are no other non-hostile targets beyond the intended target 2. Well aimed shot to the torso, which is the best area (since it's large) to engage. However, we all know there are Murphy's Law and anything bad that can happen will. There are individuals who do these benchmarks, which aids us in the overall decision of what choices to make in a desired round to place in our EDC.
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Ah the Rest in Peace bullet. If we got of the green tips that would be a huge improvement by itself. The biggest joke I have ever seen is green tips in a combat zone. Green tips should be reserved for training. As for the RIP, I would rather have an assortment of rounds from Underwood, a breaching round, a penetrator, give me some selection rather than one round.
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Not sure how legit this is. There are limitations that the Geneva Convention and Hague Treaties put on what kind of ammunition we can use. This seems like it could be cruel to use on the enemy especially if you just wound them.
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CPT (Join to see)
"There's a myth that [expanding/fragmenting bullets] are prohibited in international armed conflict, but that doesn't make any sense now," Jackson said.
"After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of ASYMMETRIC WARFARE."
"After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.
Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of ASYMMETRIC WARFARE."
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Negative on the R.I.P. and I do understand it's an example. Why not use Speer Gold Dot or Federal Premium HST? I personally use the Speer Gold Dot in my Kimber .45 and use Remington Golden Saber through my .40's and Hornady Critical Defense through my Kahr P9. I would suggest that we use the current data we already have through LE and Federal Agencies and use what they are using. I would say, the top brands from self defense ammo specialists would be where I would start. Anyways....
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CPT (Join to see)
SSG Jason Neumann If you have links to the ballistic tests please post them. I'm interested in seeing them.
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SSG Jason Neumann
CPT (Join to see) This is a good overall test that I have found after seeing your post. Sorry, haven't been more active lately, currently overseas and the internet connection is not quite the best. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ This data gives a pretty comprehensive outlook in the how some of these popular rounds react. However, even though a brand looks good with performance on paper, how will it perform in your EDC or home defense firearm. Hope this helps and was uploaded 15 OCT 2015.
Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data
Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads with analysis, photos and high-speed video.
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SSG Jason Neumann
Not a problem sir. The only thing is what will the weapon do when firing these rounds. Meaning will it function properly, will there be FTE, FTC and such. These are things we all need to look at.
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They remind me of Black Talons, overrated and gimmicky. I want a round that's going to put you on the ground and stay there not something at 96 grains that will have you dying a slow agonizing death. I will take my chances high velocity .22 cartridges like the Stinger. I can buy a lot more ammo for .22 than RIP ammo at $45 a box for 20 rounds. A .22 is only part of my kit by the way, nothing like a good old fashion .45 with JHP rounds. Anyways I'm going to shoot straight until the threat no longer exists.
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CPT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) Here are the stats.
22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%
Attached is chart for you to compare calibers.
22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%
Attached is chart for you to compare calibers.
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SGT William Howell
According to this. My .32 Tomcat is more deadly than my 1911. Sorry going to have to play the Bullshit Card.
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT William Howell - That is an excellent weapon. The thing that may skew the chart which I did not have access to is the type of ammo used for each caliber. I believe the results would have change maybe even significantly if we could compare the type of ammo used. Ball ammo v. hollow point and hard cast v. hollow points. My guess SGT William Howell is you have a 10 rnd clip or a 1 rnd. extension and are using 75 gr. rnd. If you have the stats for that please share.
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SGT William Howell
I didn't think about that there are several different types of .32 guns. The .32HR which is a revolver round is a low recoil, high velocity round that is deadly as they come. Actually, better than the 9mm.
My little .32 ACP on the other hand is not as fast or has the knockdown power of the .32HR. It is a great pocket carry when I am wearing my shorts.
My little .32 ACP on the other hand is not as fast or has the knockdown power of the .32HR. It is a great pocket carry when I am wearing my shorts.
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I don't know about how Kosher, I know it would be Politically Incorrect but technically sounds like a good idea and as humans we are always looking for better ways to kill one another.
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