How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?

If this person does this in formation you must keep your cool and stay quiet till formation is over than call E2 smart mouth on the side make sure you have another witness there to document everything on paper because if this person will do this in formation he has learned this behavior from other people and if this is not corrected now it will become more sever in the future

Hold after formation and let the E2 know in no uncertain terms that you are in charge and they are to follow your orders without complaint or hesitation. Nonjudicial punishment next offense.
I don't think that I knew anyone no matter what rank that would even think about refusing to follow an order or work assignment from a higher ranking NCO or officer, well maybe a butterbar lieutenant, but still.

In my Basic Trainng Days 1964, there was no fooling around. We had a Guard Roomm and a Provost Sgt. What you see in this clip is truly how it was. Although in these clips , they are made in the current time, where Bad Lads were given the opportunity of Prison or a 4 weeks of Training as it was in my time. Yes I started as Enlisted, but I learnt my trades under the circumstances you seee here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YpOvZIEw9s&list=PLE2cZbgZ6kkRLe-gB-EhrW42j34ltBFWi

Agree with response I would add that along with the counseling statement some form of extra physical training take place where all solders can see lunges, jog in place, push ups, flutter kicks ; all young Soldiers need to know there will be 0 tolerance for disobedience

Military service is about TEAM! When you are NOT a TEAM player (not the same as a KISS ASS!) you open tell others that you WILL NOT BE THEIR for them when they need you! How this is dealt with is called LEADERSHIP!

Minus the "dipshit - shitbag" language GySgt Kenneth Pepper the practical theory is sound. Retain the "solider" and his "squad or platoon leader". Explain that his failure to follow orders that are "lawful" per the UCMJ and > 240 years of USA military history and best practices clearly means that he is willing to risk the lives of those who will count on him in a firefight or other stressful situation when he cannot follow simple directions under non-stressful conditions. Let him know that that in choosing to fail to obey a "lawful order" and to suggest, "very briefly and directly" that when considers that he is more important than his team is contrary to how the military works. Be harmed with lessons from history of those not following orders and what it cost those around them.

Yet, CPL(P) (Join to see) commentary "...Praise in public, punish in private. "You stand fast after formation." Give him a chance to explain insubordination. Mandatory counseling. If he is defiant in private after getting the chance then burn him..." is spot on! There are in fact times when some have not been trained to handle stress and investigating, under non-combat conditions is a germane course of action. As CPL(P) (Join to see) correctly points out "...Sometimes people are defiant because something happened and they feel out of control so they try to take it wherever they can no matter how inappropriate. Sometimes a wife cheated or a parent died. Sometimes the hospital calls and congratulates you on having cancer. To outright burn a Joe without gathering the facts is irresponsible...." I cannot tell you how many times sailors and marines have knocked on my sickbay door at 3 pm needed to talk about many of the issues CPL(P) (Join to see)
highlights...such willingness to talk before acting may have saved careers and lives. Knowing some of their leaders, it did!

Furthermore, PO1 David Gibbens points out that "...When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take NO as an answer?? Or, are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction?" This kind of scenario aside, LEADERSHIP is about balance and knowing which LEADER you need to be when.

I have known hard as nail Gunny's with a softer side in certain situations that gave a new appreciation for them as human beings, but I'd STILL prefer to be in a foxhole with them 100 fold than others who would readily melt! I have known "Master Chiefs" who were all too willing to be a friend to subordinates in order to be liked and in that "friendliness" poison the chain of command!

When their is NO time think, people have to ACT based on their training and PERSONAL as well as COLLECTIVE discipline to win the day! When their IS time to think, taking the time to learn about people can help you create a type of loyalty and commitment often envied. Again, it is about not just reading Sun Tzu, but studying and implementing that wisdom every day!

Learning to admit that 1st impressions can and often are wrong takes more REAL GUTS than most people have. Don't get me wrong, sometimes, 1st impressions are spot on.

I would suspect that most of here on RP like war movies. Hec, my wife and I watched the new Midway movie (we have watched the other numerous times) at midnight last night in our living room.
I even has salsa and chips and a glass of almond mike. But, a 2016 movie that caught my attention is about a REAL LIFE hero has a scene worth watching that is germane to the question being asked!

Army Medics and Navy Corpsmen are respected, not for what they say but what in fact - they DO! Please watch this ~2:15 min Youtube clip from the movie Hacksaw Ridge. Humility in leaders is a hallmark I have always looked for in some of the best MARINES, SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AIRMEN and COASTSGUARDSMEN it was my pleasure to serve with. It allowed me to know that I was placing my trust (aka my LIFE) in the hands of someone WORTHY of being trusted! If this is NOT a demonstration of REAL leadership, hell I have NO CLUE then what real leadership is. Enjoy the clip..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6QDmeWhSHg.

I would first remember to be professional, not losing my bearing and ask E@2 to remove his self from the military formation and go to my office. After completing my duties to the rest of the group I would turn my attention to the E-2 and his Squad leader and have them report to the 1st Sgt after both of them completed the assigned task. I would let the 1st Sgt know I wanted the E2 to be charge with an article 92 If I was the Squad Leader, I would escort him to the task to be accomplished and then turn my statement in to the 1st Sgt. I would also get statements from those present at the time. Keep control of the situation and do not get to the E2 level. Nip it in the bud before we need the chainsaw.

Tell him it wasn’t a suggestion or option. It is an order!!! If that doesn’t wake him up then proceed with discipline. Thank him for being an idiot and for helping you establish your authority to the rest of the unit. If you can’t do this then you should be doing duty assignment and not in a position of authority. Maybe the Girl Scouts would handle it with encouragement and support groups. The Marine Corp deals with it on the spot in front of God, Jesus, Joseph, and Mary. The only kind thing that would come to my mind is “get your head out of your ass.

"PVT Shit bird.... you are Ab-so-Frakkin-LOOT-lee Right... you deserve such a better assignment
I thank you for your attention to detail in pointing out to me, your Senior NCO that your rights as an individual have been neglected....

First, while I think about the perfect solution to your mind boggling problem I need you to make Germany move for me just a little bit if you dont mind.... that means DROP and do PUSHUPS shitbird
Second, I will count out your 25 pushups but first I must think long and hard... so you continue to do those practice pushups until I can come back over there to begin counting them out for you
Third, I believe the perfect assignment for you is to practice your long range roadmarches with full pack and weapon, since after all those pushups you will be of a mind to be ready to go kill the enemy "|

All of this should be intoned in that perfect Drill Sergeant voice and inflection that we all know and love

I have had my share of shitrbirds, but they never spoke up more than once for some odd reason

I find this an interesting conversation. I was in the Army in 1969/70 in Vietnam. All through basic training and advanced training in Microwave, one thing that we were taught about discipline was that you were to follow orders/commands without question, immediately. One reason for this is that when you are in a combat zone and someone tells you to get down, retreat, charge, whatever the command is, hesitation or straight failure to comply could cost you your life, and possibly others their life. While we all know that in "non-combat" situations, failure to comply immediately will most likely not cost anyone their life. However, the concept of responding immediately and following orders, training, is meant to precondition a soldier to do what they are told without hesitation. If you have a knucklehead that things that following lawful orders is point of debate, are a danger to themselves and others. While serving in Vietnam as an SPC5 and assistant site chief at our radio site, I had an incident with a FNG who decided that he wasn't interested in participating in our standard end of shift clean up, i.e. sweeping and mobbing and polishing the radio room floors. He was a big strapping lad, maybe 6' +, 200 pounds. I am 5.8 and at the time, maybe 125 or so. I was not interested in arguing with him in front of the rest of the team, who just went about their normal clean up duties. At the end of our shift, I invited the young man to walk out by the bunkers with me for a smoke. As we stood smoking our cigs, I explained to him the error of his ways and ensured him that I was only asking him to do his share of the work. As well, reminding this PFC that I outranked him and by the UCMJ it was his responsibility to follow lawful orders. He responded with "F**k You" and "I will do what I want and you can't make me do anything else. At that point I gave him a choice, an ass kicking or article 15, possibly followed by reassignment to a free fire zone up north. He opted for the ass kicking and said bring it on. When I helped him get up for the third time, I asked if he wanted to continue in this manner, as I was off shift, had lots of time until my next shift and I would be happy to accommodate. He decided that it was a better idea to follow orders and be a part of a team, versus a lone wolf knucklehead. The next 6 months with this guy went great. He put his ego in his pocket and became a great team player.

In today's army, it seems that, while we need to treat every individual with respect, and corporal punishment should be the last resort, it seems that we went through a period of "molly-coddling" new recruits to ensure that we were being "sensitive" to their needs. Perhaps, and hopefully, the pendulum has swung back to the mid point again.

BTW, my direct reply to an insubordinate would be along the lines as above,,, "If you don't like being here, and you don't want to be a contributor, do yourself and all of your team makes a favor, and leave.

Ha! Poor kid!

I would take the E2 aside after I released the rest of the detail.. And inform him of the dangers of a court martial for insubordination. If he still insisted that I should stick it where the son didn't shine I would escort him to the brig and let him decide which was worse.

You really don't want to know. It would involve his team leader and the sm also. By themselves with me. I know how I was corrected as a young sm.

Still wondering how old posts are recycled in my email. But I agree with Gunny Pepper. The PFC's indiscretions must be hammered with military precision. This is the military, not Google. There is no room for such insolence, in garrison or on the battlefield. To be sure, failure to promptly and respectfully obey lawful orders in garrison, and failure to stamp it out swiftly, will translate to lives lost on the battlefield. Mission accomplishment depends on high discipline and swift compliance with orders (both the letter and the intent). Insubordination cannot be tolerated.

release the rest of the formation to carry out their assignments --- then take the smartass into my office and have him stand there while I fill out the discharge forms for an undesirable discharge which is other than HONORABLE then have him sign the forms --- as a 1st SGT this method worked well for me several times --- the look on their faces was great "SHOCK" they thought there was nothing I could to them ----- NOT!!!!!! A FAST TURN AROUND IN THEIR ATTITUDES!!!

Everybody wants to point fingers at the E-2, but maybe the E-5 needs to work on his command presence. I have been out a while so somethings may have changed. But we always had the mentality to not let our leaders down.

Being USMC , old school ( 1953 to 1975 ) I would him out of ranks, took him behind the barracks for a little one on one, ending up with him removing his head from his rectum...I'm not cut out for todays military

This Pvt would end up on every shit detail I could find. His Team Leader would be right there with him supervising. One or both of them would adjust their attitude rather quickly. If it’s just one guy he has a problem. If it’s more than one the SL has a problem. Where is the PSG in all of this? The next time he refused a lawful order I would park his sorry ass in front of the commander. When I was a PSG I would give my NCO’s a 3 day weekend. I would “replace” them for a day with E3’s or E4’s. I would go over First call, formations, the training schedule, etc a few days beforehand. Almost without fail, they were glad to see their SL and TL back among them. It usually adjusted attitudes. And respect

I'd let the NCOs take care of it, but you can be sure the NCOs and I would have words about keeping me informed.

Fifty years ago, the "counseling" done by us NCOs was more physical, in the form of 'extra care and maintenance of military properties' and/or something more physical.
Once an officer witnessed a NY National Guardsmen give me some lip. Before I could 'counsel' this Private, the officer wanted to use the UCMJ.
Our C.O. gave him a choice of Art 15 or Court Martial. The now not-so-bold Private chose Art 15.
There was an upcoming holiday weekend and these A.I.T. trainees were being allowed passes.
This Private was from a wealthy family and said he wasn't concerned about having Forfeiture of Pay, etc.
Instead, the C.O. gave him a Dutch uncle ass-chewing, cancelled his pass, and assigned him 'extra care and maintenance, etc.

I came in under reagon back in 87 I would smoke him he would know the rest of his life he screwed up ......

Send his ass to the pit for a few hours... that or ahitnag gets every detail until he gets out

I would immediately take him to the C.O. and ensure he was charged with insubordination and failure to follow orders. You might also go for conduct unbecoming. I'm sure a reduction in rank, a monetary penalty and a little time in confinement wouldn't hurt either.

The brig

....kill them immediately...make them an example for the others....

Drop the whole formation, 50 plus push ups, and let the soldiers deal with him or her, why should an NCO always do the dirty work..Peer pressure is a B****

I'd tell the E-2 to stand at "parade rest" and remain at that position every time they address me. In the mean time I'd get inventive for some corrective training to help young joker remember how the pecking order works. Maybe even give a class on rank structure to their teammates. Yelling doesn't work on every individual but when they know there is a document describing their behavior that usually gets their attention. Does this E-2 get counselled a monthly performance by chance?

It's been a long time since I was in, but my answer is the same as both enlisted and an officer. I go tell the Gunny. The problem goes away. I don't ask, he don't tell. The problem just goes away.

When I first joined in the late 70's, closed door wall-to-wall counseling was in use for the most severe cases of a repetitive nature. Spontaneous cases like above would guarantee shit detail for a week or more until re-education was established. Today a counseling statement and possible UCMJ non=judicial punishment would be in order if the soldier does not improve his attitude. One thing for sure, never make a threat to the soldier you can't carry out. Sure way to lose credibility.

As a new NCO, these responses are preparing me for something that may eventually happen. I appreciate the candor and the humor as I prefer to use these skills to motivate rather than the authoritarian approach.

Dismiss the unit and adjust this man’s attitude

That has to be dealt with FAST!!! I would get in that private's face, and blatantly tell that punk the directive will be followed, otherwise, it's an A-15 for disrespecting an NCO.

Introduce him/her to the ballpoint....no need for violence those times are over. Soon we will all understand we are all replaceable. The streets have many places for individuals like this....counsel, retrain move-on.

Wow this one really depends on the time and place.
In the good old day's ( Come into my office and we will talk, Shit bird comes out with a bleeding lip and limping) I miss those day's.
Some troops just are have a I Am stupid day and talking to them will fix it.
I know I have had them myself, But never told my boss to stick or get someone elce to do it.
These day for the most part you have to find out why they are acting like that,Babby them.
Then give them corrective traing that does not do shit.
Then It is Counseling statement's and sending them to Mentail Health. In order to make sure they are o.k. to be keep in the Military. See if is O.K. to get ride of them with a Chapter for being a Turd of a Mental health Discharge and get all the V.A. Benefits.
Welcome to the Military of Bill Clinton and Obama.

“Front lean and Rest, in cadence- exercise.”

His ass would be grass. I don't care what his problems were. There are 60-70 other men who also have problems and contain them or seek counseling. At EVERY boot graduation, MCRD SDiego, we always had at least one set of parents who would thank us for doing in a few months they had tried to do in 17-20 years. If he didn't shape up, he'd ship out. I didn't have, and still don't have, time for shitbirds to shirk their duties and responsibilities. Either grow up or get out of the way of men. Semper Fi DI USMC 1958-59. My tolerance level grows shorter as I get older and I'm an active 83 with more years to come.

After the orders are given, the senior E5 asks, "are there any bitches?" What would you do? While every laughs off the joke. There is a legitimate question.

After the orders are given, the senior E5 asks, "are there any bitches?" What would you do? While every laughs off the joke. There is a legitimate question.

I’m a Vietnam vet and I think all you military morons don’t deserve any respect your all a bunch of fucking idiots

Never had that happen we were pretty loose on AF Flightline roll cams, but if it did to me, i would have worked his ass to death. AF Flightlines are big areas , get PT lugging around heavy tool boxes

According to the rules of Sun-zu if this was wartime the dipshit would’ve been shot no ifs,ands or buts which is something that if I had to do I would do I’m sorry you put on a military uniform and you stood in front of the flag and said “I do” in the fine print it says that you agree to get screwed unconditionally for X amt of years so own up to it