On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?

I have had something similar happen. Two PV2s in Rue 21 store, both in uniform, wearing their PC inside, both walking around the store with earbuds in listening to their music. I approached them both, asked if they were stationed here (Rucker), they both said "Yes". I showed them my ID. As soon as they saw the rank, and the look on my face, they fixed themselves with no further issue.

You can't just walk away from the situation. Letting substandard behavior go by, unchecked, means you just lowered the standard. You can't be afraid of what "could happen". Be concerned with what "is" happening. And fix it!

I would have jumped in with both feet SSG!

SSG (Join to see) I commend you for your restraint. Civilians don't need to see us as ferocious rabid animals attacking and ripping apart smaller game. A SPC rolling her eyes at a SSG after admitting that she KNEW that she was in the wrong. Unbelieveable. In this touchy feely world with cameras roling 24/7, we have to be careful of how we are perceived, but as NCO's we have a job to do. I would politely ask to talk with he out of ear shot and I would whisper that if she didn't get back on track and square herself away that I would make it my mission in life to get to know her CSM and CO and to throw her disrespectful, unprofessional tushy out of my beloved service. There are great troops being cut left and right to accomodate her insubordination? I think not.

Correct her right away. Introduce yourself as an NCO and explain the negative light that she is shinning on the Army. She probably doesn't care about that, but she should still fix herself. If she still wants to be a dirt bag, you won't be able to change that and you will only ruin your evening if there is a scene in the mall. Not to mention that causing a scene will mean that you are shinning a negative light on the Army.

Get her first name and look her up on the AKO white pages. IF you find her you can contact her Chain of Command.

Wow, that photo makes my skin crawl.

Really wish they would bring back Corrective Custody. SPC or PVT catches an attitude with an NCO Throw their Sorry butts into the stockade. Have them cutting the grass with scissors and a ruler.

As a Professional Military Education Facilitator and soon to be Instructor, I would have definitely taken her aside explained who I was, and then explained her obvious disregard for the regulation covering dress and appearance. Also what it does to the public opinion when they see soldiers in uniform, whether they know of infractions or not, it's still the responsibility of the member to ensure they wear the uniform properly. With all the threats lately with ISIS targeting Military members it was also irresponsible of her to be out in public in uniform. She had total disregard for her safety and those around her attending that movie.

This is always a challenge, but if we don't enforce standards, the public sees an unprofessinal appearance. I recently met a Soldier in a grocery store who was in ACU trousers, tan T-shirt, and boots. He was not wearing his shirt, and didn't have his headgear with him. I was in civilian clothes; I quietly approached him, identified myself (and had my ID card in hand), and asked him why he didn't have on his shirt or have his hat with him.

The Soldier very self-righteously said that he didn't need to wear it, since he was off-duty! I explained the regulations, and told him I would watch his grocery cart while he went back to his car to get the rest of his uniform. He refused, so I asked him for his ID card, unit of assignment, and supervisor.

Imagine my surprise to find out he was an Active Duty Major assigned to the Army Staff at Pentagon.

But better yet, imagine his suprise to find out that his supervisor was answering questions as to why his Major was out of uniform and disrespectful to a Brigadier General.

I would have lost my mind... Not only would I have corrected her but I would have asked a lot of questions because she is one of the reasons females get a bad name. Not on my watch!!! Even though I am no longer in uniform... That is a "no go" at this station.

What in the...??? Totally unacceptable and unprofessional. The fact she reacted to you in such a manner speaks volumes on her lack of discipline and values. I concur 100% with SFC John Gates. You should definitely try to track down her unit and her 1SG, maybe even her CSM. WOW!!!

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Guess I'm a little lost, why would she even wear it to go to the movies. Are you allowed to wear ACU off post to go to the movies? I'm afraid an attitude would not have gone very well with me. I agree with the others correct in private but the correction needs to be made.

So let me get this straight. You, as a Staff Sergeant, backed down from a SPC while making a correction just because she was throwing attitude your way? You should probably sit down and rethink exactly what your profession, as an NCO, really means to you. And we, as a collective service, wonder why the ranks are running around without any sense of self discipline and or fear of being corrected.
On that note, I would have jumped not only jumped all over that SPC with the attitude, I would have kindly escorted her out of the movie theater. Then the next day, I would have made a visit to her unit and had a talk with not only her company commander but her Sergeant Major.

I also found myself in the same situation as a junior NCO. I was on vacation in Florida and noticed an NCO that was walking around an outlet mall (where all store fronts are outside) without head gear. I approached the soldier who was straight out of basic training and introduced myself and showed my ID card so they didn't think I was just some guy. When doing this i separated myself from my family and requested the individual to remove himself from his group. I continued to inform the soldier they were representing the military at all times and should take pride when wearing the uniform and always wear it properly. I didn't do this in a demeaning manor, as I wanted to let them know they were wrong and there would always be someone nearby that knew what right looked like. I also reminded him of his army values and sent him on his way. The soldier thanked me and carried on with his activities in the correct uniform.

I have made corrections in Wal-Mart....full uniform, with cover on. I just quietly approached the individual and reminded him that the cover was not approved to be worn indoors. I was in civilian clothes, but I think he suddenly realized that I may be someone that could do something about it and quickly removed his cover. I moved on without making it a big deal.

I made an on the spot correction when I saw a service member in a truck stop without his uniform top. I waited til we were in an area where it was semi private, I pulled out my ID and identified myself and told him he was out of uniform and that he should correct himself. He asked for my 1SG's contact info which I gave him. He never identified himself.

I found out later that he was a 1LT from a reserve unit in the area. He told my company commander that I was yelling at him in front of a bunch of civilians and had embarrased him. That's the point he f!@#d up big time. My commander got his information and informed him that if I had made an on the spot correction then he should have fixed himself. My commander then went on to say that in the 18 or so months that he had known me he had never one time heard me raise my voice to anyone, inculding my Soldiers.
The officer that I corrected had HIS commander called about the entire deal.

So, yes, you should have made a correction on the spot, if she had copped an attituded then she deserved to get embarrassed for her actions. If she would have gotten loud, you stand your ground and let her make an ass of herself. All you needed was her name, rank and unit to make phone inquirees of local units.

There is always something you can do, and should do. Remember, you are an NCO 24/7 365, and if you can't make decisions then you need to rethink your career choice.

SSG (Join to see) Great post, It takes character and intestine fortitude to make the hard right over the easy wrong call, by having pride for the uniform and enforcing the regulation instead of letting it go. Shows a lot of leadership by doing what's right in the absence of orders. I say hoooha.

What the H311 am I looking at? Willful disobedience to boot! There are those who are simply begging to be disciplined. AND then there are those that convince me that we need a lifeguard at the gene pool.

SSG (Join to see) you might have made the right decision to not make a scene, however, I definitely would have been more engaged and asked for her ID card and unit information. It is Soldiers who behave in that manner who bring dishonor to our service.

I simply approach and Say, "You are always being watched. So you need to do the right thing." Then calmly walk away. Paranoia is so effective.

Wow, hell yes! On the spot correction was totally appropriate. It really angers me that we have Servicemembers who think that is ok, let's not even mention the fact that she's at the movies in uniform...

Enforce the standard, or you have set a new one. if it's too public and will go too high-profile and can't pull aside as SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas suggested, memorize name, contact chain of command.

Need to revisit the days before 2005 where the BDU was ruled with an iron fist. No shopping allowed back then. Only convenience stops like gas and milk runs and then go home/ work.

Many years ago, I was visiting my Brother in CT. There is no Marine Corps facility other than recruiters within several hundred miles. We were at a local mall, and my brother pointed out a LCpl walking into a store that had his service alphas on. Well that would be generous.

He had taken his Alpha Coat off, unbuttoned the collar of the shirt, loosened the tie, and rolled up the sleeves. It was obvious that he was home on leave after just finishing recruit training. I walked up to him in my civvies, and said: "Hey there Marine! How long you been home?" He was with a girl so I figured it was a girlfriend and I didn't want to embarass him.

He responded with some pride in his voice "Hello sir, I've been home for a few days now." I gave him my ID which showed my rank and that I was on active duty. His face kind of blanched at this point. His only experience with Captains thus far I am sure, was not of the positive kind.

I said to him very jovially and kindly "Marine, if you are proud of that uniform, please go into the men's room and correct yourself. I don't want sloppy Marines representing our corps."

He looked at me, blinked once, said "Aye, aye sir!" and told his girlfriend "Honey I need to go to the bathroom."

There was another time that I was brand new 2ndLt and I was part of the Air Group Staff. I had to attend these meetings every morning with the Colonel and the other members of his staff. I happened to be the Fiscal Officer (which is a Capt Billet but I was what was available). Anyway, the Colonel was in the outer office getting himself a cup of coffee when I noticed that the one of sizing tabs on the back of his utility blouse was unbuttoned.

I walked up to him and said quietly: "Excuse me sir. Your blouse tab is unbuttoned."

He looked at me with this very calm look like what I had done was create balance in the world. "Thank you Lieutenant." He quickly buttoned it.

That Friday we had an Officer's call at the Club for some Military PME presentation. Afterwards the Colonel made a beeline to me at the bar. I was with several other Lt's and Capt's. The Colonel shoved a mug of beer in my hand and said loudly enough for every other officer in the room to hear:

"A toast! To 2ndLT Cosgrove who had enough balls to correct a Colonel, enough intelligence to do it tactfully, and an Esprit De Corps that will serve him well. Thank you Lt for correcting my uniform the other day. Gentlemen may you all have enough pride in your corps to be willing to correct a senior officer tactfully when needed."

That one incident taught me that when you are right, you should never fear what needs to be done, so long as you do it tactfully. That Colonel was a leader of Marines who I will always remember.

Here are my thoughts about on-the spot corrections.

1: Corrections have to be made. As a leader, it's my responsibility to lead. Sometimes that means pulling SPC Longhair there off to the side and pointing out the applicable paragraphs in 670-1.
2: If I don't make them, who will? If I am not going to make the corrections, who am I expecting to do it? Perhaps the guy serving concessions should?
3: When I let a standard slip, I "create a new standard." Since neither you nor I have the authority to rewrite policy, I don't want my inaction to give someone else the false idea that they have permission to be jacked up too.
4: Junior leaders need to see other leaders making corrections. If one of my squad or team leaders watches me "turn a blind eye" to this kind of situation, what should I expect them to do in the same situation?
5: Doing the right thing isn't always comfortable...but who guaranteed me comfort? Since when do leaders have the luxury of only doing the right thing when it's comfortable?

If you put those things together, the question isn't whether or not I should say something but whether or not I should use the knife hand while saying it.

The responses in this thread surprise me...

I was in the USMC in the 90's, and an NCO for the majority of that time. I ran into this, and similar situations, on a regular basis. There is-- and should be-- only one response to this kind of thing.

- Avoid a public display of chastising the junior Marine, but pul that person aside and establish who you are.
- Get the person's full name, rank, and unit.
- Instruct them to get themselves unf--ked on the spot (many times, the infraction was a violation of the civilian clothing regs)
- If it's a violation that cannot be fixed on the spot, tell that person to return home, or to their unit, and change into appropriate clothing. Tell the junior person that you will be calling the Duty NCO to ensure that the problems have been corrected, which means that they will have to check in with the Duty NCO; give them a reasonable time frame to get it done.
- Follow through.

The first couple of times that this happened, it irritated my wife-- it took time away from our leisure time together. I explained to her that if she liked being the bride to a man in Dress Blues, she had better learn to like everything that came with.

I also had more than one NCO and Platoon Sergeant tell me that I was overstepping my authority by correcting "THEIR' Marines. I would very tactfully remind them that a) they were the CORPS's Marines, and b) if they had been doing their job in the first place, there would have been no need to correct anyone.

No matter what branch you serve in, you represent your unit, your organization, and your Country. That responsibility does not end at the gate. Junior enlistees need to see their NCO's doing the right thing ALL the time. NCO's are the backbone of every service, and the necessity of setting the right example all the time falls especially hard on sergeants, corporals, petty officers, and specialists, but that's part of the job.

I see Soldiers out in public all the time in uniform (cammies) so what exactly is the Army policy on wearing uniforms in public?

As a Marine we are not allowed to wear them off base and if I see a Marine wearing them I WILL correct that individual. If they are with family or friends I will pull them to the side, introduce myself and I ask to see their ID, that way I get their full name so I can look them up and contact their Chain of Command if needed.

I have had similar issues and when I made the correction, my wife was astounded, almost embarrassed, but I told her that I had to make the OTSC. I would have pulled her to the side and the eye rolling and size of her friend tells me this might not have been a good event in public. Having her name and rank, this would probably be a research situation and direct intervention with her command.

The OTSC I had was in a international airport with about 3 Soldiers running around in the ASU with no jacket and no tie in a LS shirt and others with open jackets walking around the airport. I just could not allow this to continue in public. I stopped them each individually and pulled them to the side, identified myself and had them fix themselves immediately (a couple had to go retrieve parts of their uniform).

Another incident was a motorcycle with a bald rear tire showing threads. I saw the only Solder with a helmet and asked him if it was his bike, he said yes and I pulled his ID and drivers license, got the commanders name and phone and took a photo of his license plate. I gave him basically an order to replace the tire or I would contact his command, gave him my number and told him to send me a photo of the new tire on the bike, he did.

The only thing that I have not experienced to date in public is a attitude of the OTSC. Not sure how to deal with it other than snap a photo and try to find the command group and address the issue.

Damn, I'm afraid I might've lost my shit, lol... I'm no longer Active, but for some CRAZY reason, I try to keep up with current regs from all of the branches (I like to be able to offer advice when SM's find themselves in trouble or something). I've given on the spot corrections as a Veteran and they were usually well-received. If I had gotten the eye-roll or something... Jesus. Most SM's I've been in contact with like this were respectful about it. You never know who is approaching you when they're in civilian clothes... Whoa be the Private who pops off to a Colonel...

I had a guy pull me to the side inside a Publix due to wearing my Field Jacket, now I was not in uniform, and I'm a vet. He wanted to really make a big deal out of my combat patch (3rd Id) and the proceeded to give me the 21 questions about my service and when did i serve and what bases and Fobs.

First thing i asked him "Have you ever been deployed?" He said no, I turned and walked away.

There's a time and place to correct, but make sure your right first.

Thats just the way I see it.

U have to grow a pair. Iam sorry not saying marine's Are god's gift to the world. But at the same note if that were a marine female or male another marine would have not cared or waited to say anything. If she or he got a attitude well that just makes a marine want to correct u more. My answer to your question is if u care for what u wear and the sight of some one wearing that uniform in such a manner that u have to come up and say something, don't stop keep on them. Junior enlisted or not they know how to wear it and know what happens if they get caught not doing it right. Cpl Hardin united states marine corps. Have a good day.

The standards are the standards for that very reason, to be enforced by leadership...without fail!
You made your move to correct the specialist & was instantly disreguarded as a NCO.
Now, It's at that point you explain to the Soldier that she don't want to make this a bigger deal that it has to be & also suggest she think about what her Command would think of this violation of AR670-1 esp. her First Sergeant because you will take this up higher, if need be!
Close with "Square Yourself Away, Soldier" & stand there with your game face on! She would've fix herself at that point, SSG Robinson...
Being a NCO means doing the dirty work, outside the wire & at home, so always remember when you see Soldiers not doing the right thing, in violation of the standards or when you spy a fake in the crowd...
Remember "No one is more professional than I".

The problem is, is she was already making a scene at the mall. I know its hard to do at times especially in civilian gear and in a civilian environment, but I would have approached her like a straight Drill Sergeant. Walk right up to her and ask if she is in the Army and when she says yes continue the creating the scene she has already created. Ask her, "what the hell is wrong with you? Take your cover off and fix your hair. You are an embarrassment to everyone who wears that uniform proudly, people have died in that uniform. Fix yourself."

Not yell but have a loud and commanding voice. In my mind she would have 2 options at that point. Go ahead and do it and walk away with her head low wondering 'what was his problem...' or ignore you and everyone around would know that she is completely wrong and she would have to walk a good way before people stopped looking at her like the disease she is.

SSG (Join to see) SSG Robinson I applaud you! I at the rank of SSG would have lost my mind... as my wife watched on a few occasions. Especially if the eyes got rolled. That of course was a younger and my more homicidal side...I have since mellowed. :o) I think you did the right thing. Disengage before it escalates... That is not good for the civilian onlookers to witness as they would not understand.

Let me offer you a technique for the next instantance this occurs... and it will!

Start off with a semi smile of recognition "Hey! I'm Sergeant Wesson... aren't you in Charlie 2-25?"

Or what ever local units you have... doesn't matter just as long as you do not "appear threatening".

A dollar to a dime they will reply with their actual unit (pavlow's dog response almost).

Then you let the smile fade and politely say, "Well, I just wanted to let you know that your in violation of.... and need to correct yourself before someone else sees you like that. Thank you!" and walk away... and then watch.

Now you have their Rank, Name, and unit... if they ignore you... then you can go to their unit 1SG and report them! In my experience... the first part always has done the trick for me. However, I was prepared to go to the unit is they didn't correct themselves.

just a technique... and it still works... I used it down at Sam Houston a dozen times... and I'm retired.

Hope it helps!

There is absolutely a time and place for mentorship and correction. Show your ID, and pull her aside. If you're of equal or even lower rank, that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility in correcting. I've privately called LTs out for uniform issues, and received no backlash then or after. We all represent our Services equally. Do use tact in how you address higher ranked individuals though.

SSG (Join to see)

I think your actions and instincts were spot on until the SPC rolled her eyes. I cannot say I would have done anything different in the moment but I hope I would have yanked her chain as soon as she tried to get an attitude. You were doing her a favor by helping her become aware of her error(s)…not that she wasn’t but we will pretend.

In my opinion, as soon as she rolled her eyes and/or failed to remove herself from public to make corrections, you quietly and calmly take the specialist aside and direct her to return to her home or duty location. If the Specialist wants to return, she will either not be in uniform or in the correct uniform, if appropriate. Get the contact information for her unit and talk to your peer in her unit, so they are aware of what happened and can help mentor this solder so she does not make the same errors in the future. To often we think people actually know what they are supposed to do, so maybe we should give this young soldier the benefit of the doubt?

At least those posing as soldiers try to get their uniforms right?

From the fact that you posted it on RP, you knew what you should have done and you now know what to do in the future.

I would have loved to be there! I would have wait like 5 minutes after you spoke to her and correct her. Then talk with the guy taking the tickets to tell her something, and the guy selling popcorn, and the janitor, so everybody would tell her something. but that's me SSG (Join to see).

As NCO's we have to hold ourselves to a high standard, so it is very important for us to make our subordinates uphold that standard as well. If we don't, we are as guilty as they are for not making them adhere to the standard. In your situation, I would've asked to speak to her in private for a minute. I would have politely walked up to that Soldier and asked her if she was actually a Soldier. I even probably would have thanked her for her service. Also, I would have asked her what unit she belonged too. Once she would have given me the Unit that she is assigned too. I would have identified myself by showing her my Military ID (If I wasn't in uniform). I then would have insisted (in a kind manner) that she make the necessary corrections to her uniform as well as to her hair. If she would have given me attitude, I would have reminded her that giving attitude is a form of disrespect and can be punishable by UMCJ. I also would've have reminded her I know what Unit she is in, and will be informing her Chain of Command if she didn't make the corrections right then.

I received an on the spot correction from a CSM when I was a basic trainee home on Christmas exodus. This was 1982 and I was 6 weeks into basic. My father was in a cav unit in '62-'63. He had a gold ascot that he wore when on guard duty and for parades. I was handed this when I was very young and decided to wear it when I took my sister to the mall, right before Christmas. I put this on under my dress green shirt instead of the tie. I was all impressed with myself until I bumped into this CSM in dress green uniform who was with his wife. This man was of course a Vietnam vet and likely Korea too. Mucho fruit salad on his rack. How he handled the matter of my uniform flaw was pure NCO genius. He greeted me and introduced his wife. I introduced my sister. He asked about my BT experience and my advanced training. His wife sensed something and struck up a conversation with my sister, and it was then that he asked about the ascot. He congratulated me on pride in my father's service, asking where and what unit. Then he kindly pointed out that it was not proper uniform, and encouraged me not to do it again. We rejoined the ladies conversation and exchanged Christmas wishes. That was that. My Dad hooted when he heard about it. Class act that CSM was. That experience made me feel part of a larger family.

OK, as a retired USAF E-7, 1959- 1980. Two things here, one we praise in public and correct in private. She was in a public place. If no way to counsel her privately go on about your business. Two, you have no way of knowing what is going on, did she just complete a duty shift and get there without a chance to change her attire? Standards are fine but they do not always consider reality. The question was asked and answered, Yes she knew that she was in violation, and caught. A word to the wise and she will think twice before committing the same breech of discipline.

at least when I was in the Corps, it was very common that someone who was f-d up out in town or on base, would get corrected. It was not that rare to see a young Marine getting an ass chewing at the mall in Jacksonville for being bag nasty. Of course there was the small percentage of NCO's or SNCO's who were jerks going looking for excuses to go on a power trip but most of the time it was an NCO/SNCO that wanted to reinforce that you are a Marine 24/7/365 and are always accountable for your actions. Don't know if things have changed

The way soldiers in uniform look in public reflects directly back on us as an Army. Civilians see soldiers, and they usually do not know any better. But we as leaders know that they appear unprofessional and are out of regs. It is our responsibility to correct the problem, however there is certainly no need to make a huge scene in public.