Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 180
Unless Specialist suddenly became an NCO rank while I wasn't looking, then no. If an E-4 wants an E-3 to stand at parade rest, it better be the Corporal type.
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I say hell to the no. If that young E4 SPC wants someone to stand at parade rest for them then they should step up, find an NCO position to work in, and pin on CPL stripes. Can't have the perks of being an NCO without inheriting the responsibility of an NCO. On that note, I wholeheartedly believe the rank of SPC should be deleted from the Army. I believe that PFCs should have to go before a board to prove that they are ready for responsibility and once they prove themselves promote them to CPL and have them start taking charge. The rank of SPC just gives Soldiers a way to sham longer.
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SPC (Join to see)
Parade Rest is something reserved for NCOs. a SPC with the responsibility of being a team leader deserves your respect but like SFC Herring said, if he wants someone to go to parade rest then he should bust his butt and get some CPL stripes.
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SPC Randy Torgerson
FYI, in my day you got promoted for doing the a good job at the next ranks job. In the 80's we promoted from SPC4 to SGT. We went to the NCO schools as SPC4's. I don't know why especially in the infantry back then there were so few corporals... I really don't know. It just burns me a little to hear you guys talk like SPC4 was so automatic... well it was not completely automatic back then. Lots of soldiers never made it to SPC4. But I digress.... its a changing world.
I'm not trying to diminish the rank of corporal here.... on the contrary. Its just that so many of you talk like the way it is now is the way its always been. That's simply not true. Different time different place.
I'm not trying to diminish the rank of corporal here.... on the contrary. Its just that so many of you talk like the way it is now is the way its always been. That's simply not true. Different time different place.
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1SG (Join to see)
The difference is that SPC is automatic. The reason why the SPC rank even existed was to move the technician who wasn't quite leadership material through the ranks similarily to their counterparts of equal pay grade who chose to take on the burden of leadership. The Army got rid of the ranks of SP5-SP9 because it was unnecessary to have a SP9 and a SGM running around an S-3 shop doing virtually the same thing. Then there's the whole "why should I listen to you if we're the same pay grade" mess. So to get rid of the confusion the NCO ranks which has traditionally denoted leadership stayed intact and the technical SPC rank except for SP4 were abolished. NCOs are required to be leaders, teachers, and technicians as they have always been for the past 239 years. The rank of SPC needs to find its way into the history books. If a Soldier does not aspire to lead, coach, train, and mentor younger Soldiers then, in my opinion, he/she should ETS as a PFC. The only reason why this thread exists is because of the confusion at the E4 grade. I say end the confusion, either you're an NCO at E-4 where your knowledge and expertise is valued and required to be shared with Soldiers junior to you (and of course the parade rest junk that for some odd reason makes people think that they are the shiznit) or you're a SPC at E-4 where you are considered a "full-bird Private". Either is fine with me as long as the mission gets accomplished without the confusing meanial petty junk of who stands at parade rest for what.
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Why are we even having this debate? I know it's fun to argue about silly stuff from time to time, but the great thing about being in the Army is we have regulatory guidance for this kind of stuff. Your answer the, is no, we do not have privates stand at parade rest for specialist. If you were to look into the position of parade rest this position is used to address noncommissioned officers, or when a noncommissioned officer addresses another NCO of a higher rank. Just as I wouldn't ask a specialist to stand at attention for me, I don't expect a private to stand at parade rest for a specialist. Tell these soldiers to educate themselves and we wouldn't be having these problems.
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I've had a SPC (P) tell me to stand at parade rest for him...
(We were both in leadership positions)
Needless to say I spent the rest of the week laughing every time we crossed paths.
(We were both in leadership positions)
Needless to say I spent the rest of the week laughing every time we crossed paths.
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CPL Christie Looney
A CPL yes but not a SPC... unless that SPC has been placed in the position of an NCO which sometimes happens in an rear-d situation.
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I don't believe a corporal is an NCO either. Both are E-4. I think that if your a squad leader and your with your squad then perhaps...... but your squad should stand at parade rest whom ever is in charge of the squad. Out side of that scenario E-4's and below shouldn't need to do anything other than respect each other.
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LTC Mark Gavula
Randy and William, I do not believe a PVT or PFC should ever address a SPC at the position of parade rest unless unit SOP dictates it. It is just nonsense. It is not about respect, what is the bank account. It is about leadership development. Those Soldiers that have demonstrated leadership potential are laterally promoted to corporal. Hence, a corporal is considered a noncommissioned officer. By that rank they are given authority and then they earn respect. The young corporal will only be as good as the Non-Commissioned Officers coaching, teaching and mentoring him.
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LTC Scott O'Neil
There was a time in The Army where you had SP5 and SP6 and they were skilled soldiers but did not have the desire or qualities to be a leader and thus were soldiers with capabilities that deserved a specific rank. A Corporal is a E-4 who exhibits leadership qualities of an NCO, who is learning the Art, a SP4 is a soldier with a higher skill level that a PVT and PFC yet has not exhibited or been taught those qualities of a leader. As a Commander I did not make an E4 a Corporal until he or she had passed the Sgt's board and was awaiting points to pin on the rank. This step signified that they were ready to lead soldiers and be an NCO.
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1LT William Clardy
LTC Gavula, I don't see much room for disagreement between our comments.
LTC O'Neil, I would have disagreed with your policy for that lateral promotion as hiding behind a board's decision rather than exercising your judgment as a commander.
I have known many troops who were excellent leaders well before they met time-in-service and time-in-grade requirements for going before the board. This was especially true when we had a significant number of prior-service veterans coming back into the service during the post-Vietnam years. If an E-4's chain of command is willing to entrust him or her with leadership responsibility, they should make that vote of confidence visible to all with at least a VOCO pair of stripes.
LTC O'Neil, I would have disagreed with your policy for that lateral promotion as hiding behind a board's decision rather than exercising your judgment as a commander.
I have known many troops who were excellent leaders well before they met time-in-service and time-in-grade requirements for going before the board. This was especially true when we had a significant number of prior-service veterans coming back into the service during the post-Vietnam years. If an E-4's chain of command is willing to entrust him or her with leadership responsibility, they should make that vote of confidence visible to all with at least a VOCO pair of stripes.
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Seems like someone was on the early train to toxic leadership. I don't think it is right, really I hate having positions to stand in to speak to people. Better you than me, because I just would never speak to him.
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I was a mentor for E-4 and below when i worked at my unit full time while i was a SPC. There was an PV2 that came in to bring in paperwork and snapped to parade rest for me and even though i told him not too he just said roger that specialist and kept on standing like that the entire 20 minutes we spoke. Hes out now and actually a good friend of mine and still we have a good laugh about it. Just a couple months before I was promoted I was in a leadership position because a SGT in my platoon was not attending Annual Training due to him ETSing soon. Everyone knew i was getting promoted and taking his spot anyway. Well my Platoon Sergeant was already calling me SGT and treating me as if i was one already and let the rest of the platoon know to do so also. I was fine with it mostly but i wouldnt let anyone stand at parade rest for me because I was still a SPC. Thats how I personally feel about it and never expected it until my promotion but I know some do it out of respect.
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LTC Mark Gavula
SGT Robert D., your PSG was wrong. That is why I laugh when I see Soldiers including officers place the (P) after their rank. It means nothing. A SFC (P) is not a MSG or 1SG. In fact, by AR the (P) after one's rank is not authorized on official paperwork. I think I only used the P after my rank was when I was a young LT and thought it meant something.
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SGT (Join to see)
Correction Sir. According to AR 25-50 Chapter 6 Section 5 Subsection (c) part (2) Do not use the “(P)” (meaning the signer is promotable) as part of a signature block in Army correspondence
unless it benefits or enhances the image of the Army. However, it may be used in an address for such things as
congratulatory notes. Examples are—
(a) A lieutenant colonel promotable, filling a colonel position. The position requires the signature of a colonel or
higher. This situation would constitute using the (P) in the signature block.
(b) Enhancing or promoting a particular program or issue if it is supported by a potentially higher grade military
individual. It may carry more clout if a brigadier general select issues a directive over a colonel.
unless it benefits or enhances the image of the Army. However, it may be used in an address for such things as
congratulatory notes. Examples are—
(a) A lieutenant colonel promotable, filling a colonel position. The position requires the signature of a colonel or
higher. This situation would constitute using the (P) in the signature block.
(b) Enhancing or promoting a particular program or issue if it is supported by a potentially higher grade military
individual. It may carry more clout if a brigadier general select issues a directive over a colonel.
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Charlton Heston - Omega Man - Oh My God
March is Charlton Heston in "Omega Man" month! Here is your clip of the day. Charlton Heston, Omega Man, 1971, Robert Neville, Boris Sagal, Richard Matheson,...
SERIOUSLY?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IysoB7L-y6Q
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The Marine in me is confused by an E4 not being an NCO. That aside, I think that it is professional courtesy to stand at parade rest when addressing someone of higher rank. I'm sure my outlook has a lot to do with how strict they were about it in the Marine Corps, we had E2s standing at parade rest for E3s.
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1SG (Join to see)
And I would be all for the regulation being re written so that you are at parade rest when talking to someone that outranks you regardless if an NCO or not. However, our regulation does not, and to my knowledge never has, stated that.
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SFC (Join to see)
CW5 Scott Montgomery Chief what do you feel a Specialists place is in our rank structure Sir? Myself personally call the Specialist the Crutch grade of rank AKA Career Private as they are not NCO's but at the same token are seasoned Soldiers. By eliminating this grade of rank and making the Corporals we now have a large pool of Junior NCO's that we force to take on the duties and responsibilities respective to being an NCO by holding them accountable in accordance our E-4's now realizing they are not welfare recipients. As for customs and courtesies such as attention and parade rest regardless it is a team of well disciplined Soldiers who accomplish the Army mission therefore a subordinate regardless of rank should stand at either position as a sign of self discipline and respect for service even if it is a Private that is in charge.
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We had a PV2 that tried to make PVTs stand at parade rest for him. He was such a dirtbag that most of the PVTs passed him up and they were all SPCs while he was still PFC. All I can say is, "payback is a bitch". lol
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Hahahahahahaha um no. Regulation clearly states NCO not other junior enlisted Soldiers senior in grade.
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It goes two ways here. For Spc in a leadership position I say yes. For Spc not in one I say no they are your peers grow and learn from each other no stronger bond than that of brothers and sisters. If a lower enlisted tries to buck up to a Spc then let them handle the issue. The reason I say leadership positions is that it will revert back to say an acting psgt or acting 1sgt leadership roles have the respect. Done deal black and white.
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I'm not familiar with "pump your breaks at high-speed" (shouldn't that be brakes?), but I DO a SPC is NOT an NCO (CPL, on the other hand, is). A close reading of FM 7-21.13 refers to "NCO", and a SPC does not fit that bill.
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SFC (Join to see)
Yes 1SG Michael Blount it should most definitely read "brakes". After the initial post last summer, I tried to edit but could not. You are the first to mention the usage error. I wonder what that says to the RP community at large about the their ability to pay attention to detail.
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1SG Michael Blount
@sfc Jason kendrick - I woodnt wory about it. I believe the general rule in military correspondence is easily understood in a single rapid reading. Spellin, grammar and punctuation are nice, but not always required
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For the love of Christ! Can we give it a rest with questions like this? Is this really the best we can come up with, RallyPoint?
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SPC is higher ranking so technically yes and I'm sure the regs would back me up on this. But as the SPC is not an NCO it'd be a unique demand to make. Same as a 1LT requiring a 2LT to call him Sir. Technically he can but kind of a douchebag move. The one time I "pulled rank" as an 1LT towards a 2LT was when I was a Company XO but the story behind that warrants it.
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SSG (Join to see)
I have been in a few units where it was unit policy for privates (PVT-PFC) to stand at parade rest for Specialists. It always made me feel uneasy when it was done for me because I was not an NCO and I almost always immediately told them to relax.
I guess it would be best to say that it is command discretion whether or not they want that to happen or not.
I guess it would be best to say that it is command discretion whether or not they want that to happen or not.
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CPT Ahmed Faried
Agreed. I'll put it this way. I would support the SPC that decided to do that because he/she wouldn't be wrong.
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I am a SPC and a team leader. I make my team stand at parade rest for me. I do that so they know I am there to lead not be their friend.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I have to agree with SPC Jones. In a situation where a SPC is a Team Leader, he/she is in that position 99.9% of the time because he/she has shown that they are ready to take that next step. "Friends/buddies" go by the wayside and they are now a Leader who has to make those hard decisions.
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COL Thom Brooks
Disagree with this completely. That is why we have the rank of CPL. If you are not an NCO, you are not entitled to those regulatory expectations. At the end of the day, the SPC will not be writing an NCOER, and though he/she is the ranking Soldier, he/she is NOT an NCO. I am quite surprised this is still in discussion, but intrigued at some of the responses.
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God help us.
C'mon. I mean, does this pass the smell test at all?
This is up there with those emails you get from the Treasury Minister of Zamunda who wants you to send him 5k in American funds for which he will handsomely return you 350k of American funds.
In order words, this is some BU11$H!T.
And E-3 should not stand at parade rest for an E-4.
C'mon. I mean, does this pass the smell test at all?
This is up there with those emails you get from the Treasury Minister of Zamunda who wants you to send him 5k in American funds for which he will handsomely return you 350k of American funds.
In order words, this is some BU11$H!T.
And E-3 should not stand at parade rest for an E-4.
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SPC =/= CPL, so SPC =/= NCO, so there is not a requirement per the regs.
You're just trying to do an NCO version of the good 1LT's saluting thread.
You're just trying to do an NCO version of the good 1LT's saluting thread.
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
A SPC is not a CPL. They may have the same pay grade, but a CPL is an NCO, SPC is not. There's no argument to be said. That's how it is.
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I guess some in some infantry units, that's the standard. I got approached by an infantry PFC downrange. He was simply asking me directions to the latrines. When calls me up, he simply says "excuse me Specialist" and snaps to parade rest and proceeds to ask me for directions. It threw me completely off guard. I thought he was joking at first but he was dead serious! So after quickly answering his question, I had to ask him why the hell was he at parade rest for a SPC, I'm not an NCO. His answer was that in his unit, they had to go to parade rest for anyone who outranked you, regardless of being NCO or junior enlisted.
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You Army guys really enjoy standing at parade rest. I don't even stand at parade rest when I talk to the wing commander.
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SFC (Join to see)
Lt Col (Join to see) , it is a custom/courtesy of the Army. And we are big on customs! Well... sometimes. Ha!
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1LT Nick Kidwell
SFC (Join to see) - It is the Air Force after all. Their Customs and Courtesies are understood by all other branches to be less formal. ;)
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As a SFC I stood at parade rest for my MSG or 1SG, why shouldn't they. It's about tradition, respect and self honor. Maybe we have just gotten away from that too much.
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In some units, they implement this kind of policy sometimes. I had a company where they tried to do this....... it ended up not working... the career SPC's love that kind of stuff.
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I guess coming from the Marine Corps I view this very differently than our Army counterparts. As a Lance Corporal (e-3) with 1 deployment, I was a team leader, and as such all Junior enlisted (to include other Lance Corporals who were not in that position) would stand at parade rest. Maybe it was just my unit but it is how I was brought up and was even expected of them by our platoon command. It was never looked at as "im better than you" it was simply a show of respect and just one more way of instilling discipline.
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I don't believe that you have to be a NCO for someone to stand at parade rest. If you are a team leader I expect my team to stand at parade rest when I talk to them. When I was an E-3 and a team leader they did it. As an E-4 they did it. I see no difference.
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Cpl Christopher Bishop
It would seem to me that there is a reason the Army has kept its E4-SPC rank, meaning there is a reason they DO NOT want these people to be NCOs. If they did, they could all just become Corporals. I will interject that there are some folks out there (not me) who dream of joining all the branches and scaling the rank system such that an individual HAS to reenlist at least once in order to pin on E5, making them an NCO. The Air Force has already done this by the E4 Senior Airman rank which is NOT an NCO. I understand these same people would also like to make E7 the "enlisted rank locking you into your 20-yr retirement option" (yes I know there are exceptions and thats another topic). However there are reasons the branches are different in that manner. In the Corps, those ranks are E4 and E6, scaled 1 down from E5 and E7. I suppose one could argue that its simply a matter of "chiefs and indians balancing".
Personally I believe that in general, the E4, whether NCO or not, who actually demands this of subordinates, is probably some asshat who fails to EARN their respect. If you can earn it, you never have to ask for it or bark orders about it. And those subordinates would do those things automatically.
Id like to add that I have heard that the Army only retains the E4-Corporal rank because there are a few Unlucky folks who the Army just wants to be able to park on more weekend Barracks Duties. In some manner of speaking, it seems to some folks that being the SPC with less staffing-related responsibility for the same pay is a better option...and I'm fine with that, however I don't believe that if you cheese out on those NCO-esque responsibilities, that you should be demanding anything of this nature from others. That said, I do admit that because Im not an Army person, I dont know all of the little details surrounding the decisions of Which E3s become SPCs and which become CPLs.
I mostly agree with Cpl Matthew Wall about "respect the position not the rank" however I might go a step further and say (when we are talking about the known faces you work with day in and day out) Respect the person underneath that rank and position.
A couple more little tidbits. I have seen some Marine E6 (StaffSgt - who in the Corps were mostly locked into their 20-yr option) become pretty unsat men in terms of their physical fitness, which in an Infantry unit directly and negatively impacts their value to that unit. As an E-whatever, I didnt pop into any particular position for these friggin slimy walruses, nor did they ever expect it, because they likely knew they were those "permanent E6s never going to make E7, and were just "hanging around until their 20yr mark". Some of them might still make decent squad/section leaders, and have some good stuff between their ears on a battlefield scenario...but if they cant even make it to the location physically in a timely manner, then that value is already mostly lost. Additionally there is still a reason that E7s get pulled to fill the Platoon Sgt billets when there are these E6s already in the platoon.
I mention this as an afterthought about "Army Doctrine". The E6s like the one I have in mid here...aren't even maintaining their own duties of the uniform, and therefore I don't need to treat them as I would the Battalion CO. Im sure some of you are reading this and having trouble digesting it, and thats ok....but remember these people weren't the ones "demanding of my popping to parade rest, or Attention", or any of that.
Personally I believe that in general, the E4, whether NCO or not, who actually demands this of subordinates, is probably some asshat who fails to EARN their respect. If you can earn it, you never have to ask for it or bark orders about it. And those subordinates would do those things automatically.
Id like to add that I have heard that the Army only retains the E4-Corporal rank because there are a few Unlucky folks who the Army just wants to be able to park on more weekend Barracks Duties. In some manner of speaking, it seems to some folks that being the SPC with less staffing-related responsibility for the same pay is a better option...and I'm fine with that, however I don't believe that if you cheese out on those NCO-esque responsibilities, that you should be demanding anything of this nature from others. That said, I do admit that because Im not an Army person, I dont know all of the little details surrounding the decisions of Which E3s become SPCs and which become CPLs.
I mostly agree with Cpl Matthew Wall about "respect the position not the rank" however I might go a step further and say (when we are talking about the known faces you work with day in and day out) Respect the person underneath that rank and position.
A couple more little tidbits. I have seen some Marine E6 (StaffSgt - who in the Corps were mostly locked into their 20-yr option) become pretty unsat men in terms of their physical fitness, which in an Infantry unit directly and negatively impacts their value to that unit. As an E-whatever, I didnt pop into any particular position for these friggin slimy walruses, nor did they ever expect it, because they likely knew they were those "permanent E6s never going to make E7, and were just "hanging around until their 20yr mark". Some of them might still make decent squad/section leaders, and have some good stuff between their ears on a battlefield scenario...but if they cant even make it to the location physically in a timely manner, then that value is already mostly lost. Additionally there is still a reason that E7s get pulled to fill the Platoon Sgt billets when there are these E6s already in the platoon.
I mention this as an afterthought about "Army Doctrine". The E6s like the one I have in mid here...aren't even maintaining their own duties of the uniform, and therefore I don't need to treat them as I would the Battalion CO. Im sure some of you are reading this and having trouble digesting it, and thats ok....but remember these people weren't the ones "demanding of my popping to parade rest, or Attention", or any of that.
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Cpl Matthew Wall
I hear you on that. We had a 1st Sgt come in from MP to run our infantry company. First time we went on a hump he got blisters and got a ride back to the barracks. After that first impression nobody liked or respected him. He was 1st Sgt so we went with it, but inside we knew we couldn't count on him.
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SFC (Join to see)
Cpl Matthew Wall and Cpl Christopher Bishop, though the rank of Specialist and Corporal (E-4) are the same as E rank, there is a difference. The Specialist rank is used in Combat Service Support Units and the Corporal rank is used in Combat Arms. Here is some insight as well that we use in the Army. In the FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
Now stating that, I just had a habit standing at parade rest with anyone that out ranked me. That's just me of course. But trust me there is a big difference between Specialist and Corporal.
Now stating that, I just had a habit standing at parade rest with anyone that out ranked me. That's just me of course. But trust me there is a big difference between Specialist and Corporal.
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Cpl Matthew Wall
SFC Stanley, I've seen Specialist in the infantry before.
I think the key part to your FM is that "Unless otherwise directed" is a defining factor. If they were directed to then that is in the FM. Regardless of that though, I stated if they are a team leader and not a NCO it doesn't matter. You stand at parade rest.
I think the key part to your FM is that "Unless otherwise directed" is a defining factor. If they were directed to then that is in the FM. Regardless of that though, I stated if they are a team leader and not a NCO it doesn't matter. You stand at parade rest.
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FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
There it is.....IN BLACK AND WHITE! A Specialist is not a NCO YET! Now if the Commander of that unit wants it that way then there has to be a Memorandum that has to be posted stating as such.
There it is.....IN BLACK AND WHITE! A Specialist is not a NCO YET! Now if the Commander of that unit wants it that way then there has to be a Memorandum that has to be posted stating as such.
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