Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 180
Absolutely not. LTs should not be saluting one another and Specialist has not authority to be putting an E3 at parade rest. That's just someone being power hungry. That's just someone who needs a good ass chewing.
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SPC is still a automatic rank that anyone can achieve just by being able to breath. Nobody should be standing at parade rest for a SPC.
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1SG (Join to see)
"unless a CDR at some level intervenes " sums up my point. There are set timelines when a Soldier will be promoted, but it is not "Automatic" as the regulation would have you believe. A PFC with 24 months TIG that is flagged, WILL NOT be promoted, thus shows that it is not automatic, and that certain criteria must be met other than TIS/TIG. You can tell by my initial response to the question, I too feel that they should not have to stand at parade rest and the regulation backs up my feelings
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SFC (Join to see)
If by automatic you mean: A PFC who is not flagged, MOSQ'd, other wise eligible, and is in the eyes of the company commander deserving? Then yeah... it is automatic. Sound about right 1SG (Join to see) ?
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SSG (Join to see)
Roger I understand it is not actually automatic in all cases. The point I was trying to make is that as long as you can breathe and not get in trouble you will automatically make SPC. This does not mean a PFC should stand at parade rest for you just because you were well behaved for 6 months longer than him. Yes you are correct regulation backs this up. sorry for any confusion with the "automatic" remark.
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Many people have difficulty when given authority, whether it be authorized or wrongly perceived. Sometimes a friendly chat can help solve this, sometimes a swift kick in the ass, or, at the worst, some wall-to-wall counselling in the First Sergeant's office (yep, that one dates me).
In a lot of units, officers and NCO's can be pretty scarce at times so inexperienced SPC's tend to get away with this kind of thing because the officers and NCO's are off doing their other duties and no one is watching. From my experience in an aviation unit where you have 4 Commissioned Officers and 26 Warrant Officers hanging around, we were able to nip this in the bud with some friendly chats (plus being 6'5" and 230 lbs helped a little)
And we were also able to talk to the PFC's and SPC's when they were acting up with a new promoted NCO. It was all about finding the proper way to motivate someone to learn and asking, "How would you want to be treated?"
In a lot of units, officers and NCO's can be pretty scarce at times so inexperienced SPC's tend to get away with this kind of thing because the officers and NCO's are off doing their other duties and no one is watching. From my experience in an aviation unit where you have 4 Commissioned Officers and 26 Warrant Officers hanging around, we were able to nip this in the bud with some friendly chats (plus being 6'5" and 230 lbs helped a little)
And we were also able to talk to the PFC's and SPC's when they were acting up with a new promoted NCO. It was all about finding the proper way to motivate someone to learn and asking, "How would you want to be treated?"
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SFC (Join to see)
I would love for the Army to get rid of the "Specialist" Rank and go strictly with Corporal.
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Suspended Profile
A SPC is not an NCO, therefore no, a PFC should not be required to stand at Parade Rest for a SPC, however the PFC should stand at Parade Rest for a CPL. If a PFC chooses out of respect for the SPC's rank, then that's their own choice.
If the 1SG wants it to happen, then so be it! NCOs better make it equal in each PLT and enforce the good training! To easy!!
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LTC Scott O'Neil
Personally, I believe that lineage, history, customs and curtsey and Drill and ceremony are being forgotten in the United States Army. I can not talk about the other services but these subjects need to be shared with young soldiers from basic through to retirement. These subjects teach and instill esprit de corps within The Army. We have forgotten our roots and a soldiers needs to be proud of their services roots. If we trained these subject there would not be discussions like this in this forum. A question to prove a point, why are the blues pants a different color that the jacket?
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MSG (Join to see)
LTC Scott O'Neil, if memory serves me correctly it goes back to when the cavalry soldiers would use their jackets as padding to sit on over their saddles, shielding the jackets from the sun. Meanwhile their pants would be a lighter shade due to fading from sunlight.
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I think that all E4 Specialists and below belong to the SPEC4 Mafia and therefore don't stand at parade rest for each other.
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SFC (Join to see)
CW5 Sam R. Baker , I believe that there was a thread on that subject already as well. I definitely agree with you though. I am not sure why it was ever done away with.
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
I had a SPC while I was an NCO in Japan. I will never forget his name, SPC Garby. He was one of the hardest working, nice dudes I ever met. I kept rying to get him to go to the board. He refused and recanted each time saying he never wanted to lead, he wanted to just do his job, MP. He only wanted to be a patrolman and a damn good one. He didn't want to be responsible for counseling, inspecting formations, accounting for equipment and the like. He just wanted to follow and be a Soldier and do his job. I do think there is a place for folks like that, but then we have RCPs that move these folks on in a up or out system.
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SSG Laureano Pabon
SFC (Join to see) you stated "Mafia", maybe just maybe there might be another Army hidden with in whom do have PFC's stand at parade rest for them. (The Specialist Mafia), A group of highly trained, highly skilled, able to manipulate any situation and take control of matters that arises as it arise. Able to go undetected into areas no NCO/officer could ever think they can enter. I mean why do you think we call them Specialist ? I mean we don't see it and that's because they know we can't see it, that's why they do it. We perhaps are too focused on FM's and Laws and perhaps get a bit tunnel vision that the Specialist are fully aware and perhaps they do have PVTs and PFC's stand at parade rest for them. Think about :)
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The vast majority of lieutenants do not salute each other in the Army. I have never seen or heard of anyone under the rank of E5 being required to give any courtesy to a fellow pvt-spc. For example at basic training despite the fact that there's a gang of specialist trainies running around, everyone is referred to as private. The same ideas apply to the regular Army and individuals under E5 don't have any courtesies to extend to their superiors who are themselves under E5. However even in basic training I've seen e fives that needed to go through training again and they were required to enforce courtesies for themselves. The drill sergeants were mad when sergeants E5 in training, even basic training, weren't given courtesies by the trainees ranked E four and below.
Good luck.
Good luck.
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CPT Keith Celebrezze
Important caveat, if the e4 is a corporal or in a bona fide position of authority, like team leader, then they be given courtesies.
GL
GL
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Noth Specialist and Corporal are junior NCO'S the only difference is leadership positions vs technical not much different than the WO and Officer relationship. When in doubt look it up.
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I was appointed the Barracks Sargent at Fort Been Harrison Indianapolis IN by the Command Sargent Major for 6 Months and regardless of rank (there were E5s and E6s whom upon my inspection of the quarters would address me in parade rest when in the Barracks. However, upon leaving the building the roles reverse. That was 1983. I think it would depend non the Command structure and duties of the Specialist.
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Book answer, no s/he is not an NCO it does not apply.
I guess I can see how this might be a little MOS dependent EOD I would never see this being a thing. By the time we get out of AIT we are 6 months from SPC. I could see how this might be more combat arms related as they have different roles they fill that EOD does not have, but still not an NCO not really a thing.
I guess I can see how this might be a little MOS dependent EOD I would never see this being a thing. By the time we get out of AIT we are 6 months from SPC. I could see how this might be more combat arms related as they have different roles they fill that EOD does not have, but still not an NCO not really a thing.
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If you are a team leader as a E4 regardless of SPC or CPL you are held responsible for close below you. As a SPC I filled positions of Sgt and SSgt. I tried to keep the atmosphere relaxed but clearly disciplined. I only ever had one issue with a E3 who did not understand how the military works or at least did. As he was disputing my authority to give him direction or 1sgt happened by.
Told PFC X. That anytime he thought I was being out of line or behind my authority in what I told him to do he should come see him. Kid was happy as a pig in mud, until 1Sgt added but you Damn well better have finished the task Specialist Henriksen gave you before you step through my door.
Told PFC X. That anytime he thought I was being out of line or behind my authority in what I told him to do he should come see him. Kid was happy as a pig in mud, until 1Sgt added but you Damn well better have finished the task Specialist Henriksen gave you before you step through my door.
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Interesting...Marine Corps Promotion Warrant reads : "I do strictly direct and require all personnel of lesser grade to render obedience to appropriate orders". Good subject to provoke thoughts and comments with regards to discipline expected and demanded at our lower ranks.
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Yes, it's simply a show of respect, which is important and part of the developmental process of Soldiering.
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My unit has us do it if they are in a team leader position. But not otherwise
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Correction required, in the sentence of my post auto correct decided I didn't know what a Pfc was and corrected to Pic instead, dang thing.
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I meant to vote pump your breaks high-speed. Last I checked AR 600-8 listed Advancement to Specialist not promotion. As a courtesy to higher rank it's respectful and shows maturity as well as honor for th e uniform, but not required. It's not the Marines. That would be no different than a Pic insisting that a Pv2 stand at parade rest. However, certain duty possisions rate a higher level of respect. Squadleader, section supervisor etc. Situational awareness. Don't be the Pfc that is getting counseled for failure to fallow instructions and a Staff Nco walks by while your arguing with that Spc knowing you are 8up and that Sgt knows you as such. Just stand by, they got something for you to help you figure it out.
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It is a unit by unit issue. In some units it is required, but in others it is only required when speaking to PLT SGT or above.
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