Posted on Apr 5, 2015
COL Charles Williams
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The Combat Action Badge was created in 2005 to honor those who'd engaged or been engaged by enemy forces during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but weren't eligible for similar awards available to medics or infantrymen.

It was made retroactive to Sept. 18, 2001, but since shortly after its founding, lawmakers and veterans groups have pushed to send it back much farther — to the outbreak of World War II.

As Maneuver Support Soldier, I know support personal (like Aviation, Engineers, MPs, Truck Drivers, etc. (in addition to our Medics who accompany maneuver forces) are often also directly engaged in close combat along side of our infantry and armor brothers. So, the CAB made sense to me, to accompany the CIB and CMB.

Despite the frenzy that ensued, and discussions of "CAB hunters," I still believe this is an important award, especially for MOSs like MP and Engineers.... who, as an example, during the surge in Iraq were rivaling our combat arms brothers in daily combat casualties.

I was personally shot at more and returned fire more in Somalia, than Iraq. So, this being retroactive also makes sense.

I think this is a good idea, and deserved, however, the logistics of doing this will be overwhelming.

Before you CAB naysayers chime in... Consider COP Keating... Those guys were not 11Bs. They were scouts and armor crewmen. 2 MOHs and many other medals were awarded there. 8 Soldiers were killed and many were wounded. Does not that merit such an award? There are many others like it.

What are your thoughts?


http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/04/combat-action-badge-retroactive/25235333/
Posted in these groups: Us medals AwardsHqdefault Badges
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Sgt Frank Rinchich
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I read most all your comments, and compared to my post about the national defense medal , the CIB and CAB fall in about the same category. The national defense was a time period medal, the CAB is a happen to be at the right spot at the right time. But I would say if you are under fire , truck driver, cook, or use a typewriter your in a combat situation you deserve the badge. Yeah I know Marines should keep their noses out of Army business. But not to often we can comment on you guys.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
10 y
Sgt Frank Rinchich Hooah. Thanks for your comments.
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SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
10 y
Sgt Frank Rinchich, well said and eloquently expressed
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SGT Infantryman (Airborne)
SGT (Join to see)
10 y
Sgt Frank Rinchich, SGT, you Marines can stick your noses in our business anytime. I worked with Marines in DaNang. We were all the same. Scared as hell about the unknown.
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PVT Mark Zehner
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I left the Army 30 years ago but to those that still care I say get one!
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SFC Network Engineer
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The point of the CAB, is to recognize those who are NOT infantry, who came under either direct or indirect fire. The SAME reason the CIB exists. If you're infantry, you also can earn an EIB, and if you're a medic, EFMB. There is NO EQUIVALENT, nor should there be, for the EIB, and the EFMB. The COMBAT recognition of anyone who was engaged by the enemy is NOT a bad thing. The problem infantry guys have, is they think that earning a badge for a combat action, is exclusive to them! THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY SOLDIERS who FIGHT and MAKE a LIVING, being a direct action type Soldier. I can name at least a dozen MOS's outside of infantry that do DA missions on a very regular, if not MORE frequent basis, than infantry, and who are NOT entitled to earn a CIB, and MANY of those MOS's regularly, and frequently, put their asses on the line BEHIND enemy lines, something the infantry rarely does unless they get overrun or surrounded. The CAB is the perfect way to recognize ALL Soldiers who actually have had to risk their lives, including supporting infantry.
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COL All Source Intelligence
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>1 y
Not Indirect - Only Direct and must complete an Offensive / Defensive Act while engaging with the enemy...
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1SG Kenneth Hills
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This problem should have been fixed back in WWII why would only the infantry get this what’s with Armor, Artillery, Combat engineers now we have Iraq and Afghanistan, now we have MP,s, truck drivers, hell everyone was involved.

Check out this web site

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_badges_of_the_United_States_military

Understand it sucks to be Infantry but it also sucks to be a tanker, a truck driver a Cook when you are deployed and they are shooting at you that SUCKS
By the way yes I am Infantry and Armor.
I’m For it
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CSM James Winslow
CSM James Winslow
10 y
I am just going to stay out of this one. Everyone gets a paycheck, that is reward enough for me.
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1SG Kenneth Hills
1SG Kenneth Hills
10 y
After 50 years of service Jim, waking up would be good!!
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1SG Kenneth Hills
1SG Kenneth Hills
10 y
How have you been CSM Winslow, when in Germany give me a call
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CSM James Winslow
CSM James Winslow
10 y
I am in Graf right now. What's your number? .. and it's 38.5 years, all together....
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
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I have no skin in the game, so to speak, but I can go with retroactive award much like it's big sister award the CIB was retroactively awarded.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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Gut reaction is that documentation would be insane.

Did we even keep records of non-Infantry/Medic/Special Forces who may have been involved in combat?

On the USMC/USN/USCG side, we have one ribbon which covers all personnel, so it's simple. But the Army... Would it have documented incidents that had no administrative purpose? (awards).

When it really boils down to it, the concept of recognition is great. However the initial execution of the CIB/CMB created a hole, and what can only be described as an administrative nightmare.

At this point, there is no real way to prove someone rates it from time periods prior to 2000.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
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COL Charles Williams
Thank you for tagging me into this discussion.

I think this is a good idea in general, but wonder how it would be accomplished in practice.
I tried to find combat after action reports for Vietnam with little luck.
I can only guess what the records for WW2 must like.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
Hooah! Thanks for your comments!
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SGT Thomas Lucken
SGT Thomas Lucken
10 y
Jan, you mean the records that survived the fire in ST Louis Records Center 42 years ago!!!!!! :-)
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
10 y
SGT Thomas Lucken Here is one take on the "Great Records Fire"
"Army Records: Personnel discharged November 1, 1912 to January 1, 1960 – 80% loss"
And that would cover WW2 and Korea pretty well.

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=39667
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LTC Jason Mackay
LTC Jason Mackay
10 y
I think more survived the fire than they let on, but to manage expectations, they claim 80% of Army records were destroyed. I am researching my Grandfathers service in WWII (Americal Division in the Pacific). http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html
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1LT Executive Officer
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Although making the CAB retroactive would be a logistical nightmare - but I do believe that it is something that should be done.

In regards to the award itself -

There are other Soldier outside of the 11B MOS that have been in combat, and that will always be the case. There is no questioning that. While they may not be "Infantrymen" in the traditional sense - they are still Soldiers. It's been quite some time since I went to basic training - but I do distinctly remember them teaching us that you are a Soldier first - your MOS is secondary.

Personally, I feel that the fact that you would deny a Soldier recognition for combat experience based on their MOS is a little asinine. Historically the CIB was created to boost moral within the Infantry Corps and create a prestige in service during WWII. Isn't that exactly what the CAB is intended for in the non-Infantry MOS's? It is a small population of the POG's in the Army that have been awarded a CAB - it distinguishes them from their counterparts who were never exposed to combat. I don't see the issue with that.

You certainly can argue that they were handing out CABs "like candy." But can you be absolutely certain that every 11B wearing a CIB earned it according to the standard? Unfortunately, not everyone in the Army has the integrity to follow the awards process properly - and this goes for any award/badge.

You can make the argument that without the Infantry their would be no Army. But you can make the same argument that without all of the support operations - the Infantry could not function.

I have nothing but respect for the Combat Arms MOS's - I serve in a support function, and have never stated otherwise. I would never want to discredit their service in any way. However, I do find it troubling how quickly some Infantry individuals are willing to discredit mine.

I didn't join to lean a skill that would be useful in the civilian world, or to go to college - I could have done both of those things just fine without the Army. I joined the Army to serve my Country.

In the end - it is important to remember that the Army is structured the way that it is for a reason. We all have out parts to play. We are all Soldiers.

Would you deny a posthumous CAB to a non-Infantryman who was killed in combat fighting next to that 11B? I would hope not. Otherwise we have bigger issues at hand than the logistics of issuing out badges.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
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Edited 10 y ago
I think it's a joke. Just let it be as it is. The paper work clog it would create would be extreme, and how would it be proven? Or do we just say everyone in theater gets it?
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SSG John Jensen
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Task Force Smith - Korea - that debacle is why we have a thing called 'Basic Combat Trng'
Every one on that mission deserves one

I have a very good friend who was a fwd observer for the field arty in Vietnam who definitely deserves one
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SSG John Jensen
SSG John Jensen
10 y
and my great-uncle Ernie was a crewman on an Army Tugboat in the Aleutians - he was at Dutch Harbor where a Japanese Zero was shot down by rifle fire from the ground - he derserves one
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SSG(P) Vertical Construction Oc/T
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im an engineer , i can say i have been shot at with just about every kind of small arms there is and more while setting t barrers up on road sides and doing rapid road repairs and culvert denial missions to route clearance missions to setting a bridge across a river while in contact. we referred to ourselves as "bait for the day" but ill say this, we gave way more hurt then we took, i have many awards that say under fire or direct fire on them i have never gotten a cab and dont really care, im just glad to keep coming home and teaching my soldiers how to do the same.
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SGM David W. Carr  LOM, DMSM  MP SGT
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I was in Somalia for many violent events e.g. Stadium slaughter and Balkan Market
we referred to ourselves as "Prisoners with Guns".
We were constantly harassed by the enemy on a daily basis with enemy fire and mortars.

Those of us on the UN side were given MSM for our combat time.
When we earned the Bronze Star !
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
10 y
I agree... SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT I believe many of our Infantry Brothers have no idea (unless the worked with us in close proximity) what we actually do on the battlefield. I know from Somalia, the 10th Mountain Commanders understood what MPs did and could do, and since 911, most maneuver Commanders get it. Infantry SL... probably not so much. I believe the higher you are in the Army, the better you appreciate all the pieces and parts, and you know the pieces and parts all matter.
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SSG Jeffrey Brady
SSG Jeffrey Brady
10 y
I agree. After serving with 3rd SFG as a Combat Photographer in Desert Storm I deployed with I MEF to Somalia for my 1st deployment there. Ended up with two tours there seeing more action there than I did in Desert Storm. It's hard not to see why you wouldn't award this medal when you work along side those day after day who earn the CIB and CMB and you are in the middle of the same action.
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SFC Trevor Sauders
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Edited 10 y ago
The CAB is a bullshit award to make everyone feel good. As an Infantryman I truly hate those who say "when is was I in Iraq I was infanrty". There is much more to being a infantry man than patroling, or exchanging fire with the ememy. How many of those called infantrymen and dig a defence, or set in an anti-armor ambush, set in a patrol base, or enter an clear a trench line. I guess my point is before the GWOT 11B had to learn so many different tasks that are 11B specific. So those of you say I was an 11B during OIF or OEF I throw the bull shit flag. Most of the tasks they where required to do can be found in The Soldiers Manual of COMMON Tasks. It is not my fault you unit did not make sure you could preform those tasks in the above mentioned manual. Besides its your own job to learn that manual front to back. It is for all soldiers regardless of your MOS. So stop calling yourself infantrymen, and call yourself what you are above all else a soldier. As a true infantryman I find very very offensive when I see a window sticker saying Infantilleryman. The CIB is awarded to those of us 11B who got into a direct fire fight, exchanging bullet for bullet with the enemy, not being a Fobbit who had a mortar explode 300 yds away while in your hooch.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
10 y
You obviously SFC Trevor Sauders have no idea what others do in combat to support our Infantry brothers. On the modern nonlinear battlefield, it is not just the infantry who patrol and engage the enemy in direct fire engagements. The CAB was long needed for all the rest of us pogues. The issues with awarding the CAB, caused by lack of fidelity in the system by Commanders, also occured/occur with the CIB. I could cite many examples on both sides. I will just tell you during the surge, for 15 months, I attended about a memorial ceremony a week, for an MP(s) who were killed in action.... Only one was killed by a rocket attack at Rustamya... The rest were for direct fire, IEDs, and snipers. That does not even account for the others wounded. It is not just the infantry who fight, especially in places we are today. Thanks just the same for your service and perspective.
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SFC Trevor Sauders
SFC Trevor Sauders
10 y
If you read my post carefully, patrolling, getting blown up still does not make you an infantryman. You are still a major who's branch is MP. That does not mean that your sacrifice is more or less than mine but it still does not make you or anybody else and infantryman who's branch is not infantry. As I said all those who have sacrificed and lost deserve something but to make up a patch from nowhere just to give to somebody to make them feel good is not the right answer.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
10 y
SFC Trevor Sauders Thanks for your follow up. Hard to read it carefully or seriously when you open with it is Bullshit award. I did spend a few years in the Army and a few years in combat; not infantry combat... but combat just the same.

We can agree to disagree. I was an enlisted an a MP, commissioned Armor, then a MP again for the long haul. I believe the CAB is long over due.

The only thing that makes you infantryman or SF is your MOS or branch; hence the CIB.

That does not mean if you are not Infantry you don't engage in direct fire engagements with the enemy. MPs have specific tasks of conducting a hasty attack, and deliberate attack, which I believe is what you do?

I can even specifically recall more than once the MP ORFs in Baghdad responded to reinforce and assist our Infantry comrades... They seemed pretty pumped with assistance.

Everyone who deploys gets a combat patch... I believe if you engage the enemy in close combat... you deserve the same recognition as the CIB, but not the CIB for which I have the utmost respect and admiration. Hence the CAB.

The issue with the CAB, and the CIB, is a lack of fidelity in the system, created by Commanders who will not say no. The CAB frenzy made this worse... Trust me I can tell you stories about the asinine things I saw folks do in effort to get a CAB when I was Deputy Brigade Commander during the surge in Iraq... But, I also know of similar instances with the CIB.

I suspect, most of our infantry brothers think the CAB is BS, and that is OK. I know that what we do matters, and without us, you would fail.
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CPO Steelworker
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>1 y
The CAB is not and never was meant to be awarded for Indirect fire of any kind, it is stated in the instruction.

The other is I am Navy, would never claim to be like Infantry, but was in some hot spots with 0311 unit's and Combat Engineer units and received the CAR Two times and both times the Grunts had no problem with us receiving the CAR, as we were on line with them period. By the way Marines do not just give the CAR out even to 0311's, they have to have every thing to back it up.

I kow an 11B from my hometown, we were in Iraq at same time and same FOB, he use to see us go out the gate every time and they stayed on the FOB. hey left the wire one time to do a presence patrol and 0 contact, but they got a CIB, it is up to the commanders on ground to do the right thing. By the way he said I was more disserving of the CAR I received vice his CIB. Now did I do Infantry Task, no, did I do solider stuff when in contact yes.
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1SG Dale Sanford
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I think this is a good idea if there is a set standard such as was used for the CIB before the CAB was created. I was a 1SG of a Route Clearance Company in Iraq and had several Engineers not awarded the CAB because they did their job and found IEDs instead of them finding them. It didn't make sense that the Brigade Commanders had the authority to set their own standards. I also believe that there should not be promotion points awarded so we stop CAB hunting.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
The problem 1SG Dale Sanford , with the CAB, the CIB and many awards is the lack of fidelity in the system created by commanders who loosely or too strictly interpret the regulations. I have seen CIB hunting, and CIBs awarded via battle rosters (all). My first PSG had interesting stories about how the CIB and BSM were awarded in 1ID vs 11ACR in Vietnam.
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1SG Dale Sanford
1SG Dale Sanford
>1 y
Since some commanders have given their units blanket CAB awards, I think that is the only fair option. Unfortunately, this does lower the significance of the award. Maybe that is the solution to stop soldiers to stop hunting them.
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Sgt Frank Rinchich
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I was not in the Army, but this is a little comical, I was in the Corps from 55 to 59 in 56 was awarded the China service medal, but I am not qualified for the National defense medal, I belong to the VFW which recognizes the China service as a foreign war , but can not join the American Legion because I was not eligible for the National Defense medal .means I could be exposed to life threating situations and not eligible for the National Defense but a man (woman) setting at an office desk in the states is awarded the Defense medal because of a time period. Because of using time periods instead of actual involvement makes a lot of badges and or medals nothing more then colors on you chest.
By the way just because I do not have the Defense medal I can not wear my dress blues at national ceremonies , I belong to the Marine Corps League which was legislated by congress 76 years ago. And any one awarded the defense medal or retired , can wear their blues at ceremonies.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
Thanks. I believe many veterans were disadvantaged by those years. My father in law was in the same boat, and hence he was not eligible for many VA benefits
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SPC Shawn Kirkpatrick
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I would like to know how to get my CAB. I have two Purple Hearts and an ARCOM and my unit not got mine to me.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
You should contact HRC, or easier contact your congressmen. They can help you.
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SGT John Rauch
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I have seen a few posts on this thread that are just plain ignorant. if properly trained, every soldier is a rifleman. personally I like the CAB and I wore it with pride because not every soldier who deploys earns one. granted, many soldiers who were awarded the CAB did not truly earn it. ie. " I got my CAB in KAF because the other side of the base was hit by IDF." both of the MOS's that I held could be considered as "POG" MOS's, but I was a.50 cal gunner and M240B gunner my whole 1st deployment. I was fired upon and returned fire upon the enemy. In the end I was a paratrooper and a rifleman and am proud to have earned the honor regardless of my MOS. would I demand recognition for it? no. would I turn it down? absolutley not.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
Many Soldiers in our Army, don't understand all the support Soldiers required per Infantryman (Tooth to Tail), nor do they realize many others, aside from the Infantry fight, and take casualties. As a combat supporter, I have always known that. At some point, int the life of an Infantry, they realize they can't do this alone, and they need all the rest of us. SGT John Rauch
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SGT Daniel Rocco Ames
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SSG Michael Velez
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I have a big 1st Cavalry patch on my right shoulder and I know what I did when I was there, that's enough for me.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
That is one big and cool patch.
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SGM Mike Bachini
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So. If it does go down what is the process of "proving" you earned it? The same three sworn statements, in addition to the next to impossible to get incident report or a Purple Heart (not a fratricide PH mind you). I have see some of the comments on this thread, a laughable one is the "blanket awarding of the CAB to entire brigades". The CAB is extremely hard to get, the award seems to have its share of guardians and subjective issues. So that being said, there would be folks serving who would have a second or possibly a third award of the CAB. For instance, desert storm vet, scud missle attacks that happened. Check that's the first, he/she then goes to Somalia, check that's the second and then take your pic of Iraq or afghan for the third.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
Hooah! Thanks for your comments!
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CPO Steelworker
CPO (Join to see)
>1 y
I think as I understand it would be like the CIB, you only get one for time period examples you brought up a guy that earned a CIB in Storm, and then in the Somalia and later in Iraq would still only rate one. As I understand CIB periods WW II, Korea, Vietnam and last period was Storm to Present.
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COL All Source Intelligence
COL (Join to see)
>1 y
SCUD Missiles wouldn't count, the AR specifically states "Active, Ground Combat"... IDF (even 5 feet away) is not sufficient. Also, the Soldier must "complete an Offensive or Defensive Action" while "Engaged or Engaging the Enemy".
So whereas you can earn multiple CABs, they must meet the required criteria.
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MSG Parachute Rigger
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I could've been awarded one quite a few times. Didn't really pursue it. Looking back, maybe I kinda want one. But it seemed too cheesy at the time to submit paperwork, ask for statements, and chase a badge. I've seen my fair share of action. Now I'm like the soldier that goes to the VA that never went to sick call. Do I really want to go after it now, 5 years later. No! But it would be nice to have a little reminder of those few fights I was engaged in.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
>1 y
Hooah! Thanks for your comments!
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