Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

A lot of the young soldiers have been too pampered in their lives and don't like to be told what to do or not do. Everybody is equal, all get a trophy, etc... I saw this already in 2002 before I retired after 28 yrs of svc.

The concern over military discipline is a valid one. However, I have been through this with the Marines and the Army from 1961 through 1993. I was a Marine from 1961 - 1967 and an Army Green Beret from 1967 / 1994. I experianced some disrespect for those in authority. The Marines handled with Article 15’s and loss of rank. The Army gave the offender more rope to hang hisself, then lowered the hammer hard. They both had morale problems afterwards. Some came around and it was a win, some didn’t and were discharged with various discharges that fit the charges in the board or authority pressing charges.

Sir and not being a dick here just my observations. I have been Retired since 1996 and have overtly watched the decline of the US ARMY that I served in. My opinion if you want excellent information for your white paper. Just hang around on rally point look at questions asked, Then see the answers I have seen in one thread where you get three totally different answers too one small leadership question/situation. RP is full of these kind of examples. Soldiers saying " its just a job just like any other civilian job" and seniors both Officer and NCO'S agree with them.

Unfortunately when the Senior leadership see's it "Just as a job like any other job" That is all you have.
When you have civilians telling the Military how to run the show, what leadership is, what discipline is, What to do with a Soldier When Charged with,? My opinion once the civilians get that involved you are doomed to fail and especially when you have Seniors agreeing with the Civilians. How did this happen? Well I have my opinions how ever some times you have to decide if you want to attack that Hill at this time or not. This is one of those times that I will have to admit that Hill 429 is going to be their tomorrow.
Best information is right here on RP in the questions asked and by whom, And how they are answered and by whom. Hope this helps. Good luck with your with paper and Thank you for your service.

My first thought is in general the younger generation has gegraded in itself.

I've been out 50 years, but what I saw then and in the jobs I have had since then have not changed. Lack of respect and discipline in the lower ranks start with lack of respect and discipline in the upper ranks, NCO and Officer. If you are a Corporal, Buck Sgt. or Staff Sgt then the E-1 through E-4's are not your buddies. By the same token, E-7's and E-8's are not your buddies. They should be your teachers to prepare you to advance to the higher level as you should be teaching the lower ranks to improve themselves. You need to remember, once upon a time you too were a Private and did the same stupid things that they are doing now. When I was promoted to Sgt I was moved out of the bay with all the Spc. 4's and to a NCO bay. I was moved from my platoon I had been in for a year and to another platoon. 3 of us were promoted the same day and the First Sgt explained to us that we were no longer "enlisted men" but NCO's and had new responsibilities. 2 months later two of us were still Sgt's and one was a Spc. 4 again. He did not want to be a Sgt and leave his buddies.
I saw the same thing in the officer's ranks. Our company CO's were usually 2nd Lts and not much past the learning stage. But Maj. Lucino the Bn XO and LTC Robert Greenberg the Bn C.O were outstanding if you needed help. They were always available to help their troops from PFC to SFC's .
Now in 14 months in Nam I never met the BN commander or his XO. I think he flew into our compound once while I was on a convoy. The BN Sgt Maj. stayed as well hidden as they did. Our company commander was a drunk. He thought nothing of coming to the NCO hooch at 2am and waking us up to drink Schlitz with him. If he went on one of our convoys he took his cooler with beer with him. He was a nice guy and a good guy but not a good officer.

It might be a symptom of how the culture is shifting, away from the old rigid standards!

1SG the Army has not catered to generational changes lack of and poor leadership has done that, disrespect should not ever be tolerated, two things a solder hates to lose is time and money AR 15 can do both

I could ask the same of NCOs and officers who had little or no discipline at all, even in 2008 and such. You want to discriminate on a select group of the most underprivileged, overworked and intimidated group of the military, and you expect them to act as kiss-ass robot doormats for NCOs who may or may not have *earned* their rank, or officers whose only merit of holding the rank is in possessing a college degree. I find your belittlement and condescending nature typical for an officer, but also disturbing.

On another note, here in the Army, while in rare cases there are issues with a lack of genuine respect, it's far more common that we treat each other like family. Officers are our parents or big brothers/sisters, down through NCOs to the lower enlisted. The Army is a family unit. Is it truly a lack of respect, or bonding between family?

Ah, I see you're a Marine. Well there you go. Perhaps since most Marines (vast majority) come from broken or extremely dysfunctional families, you might not understand this analogy.

Nevertheless, when in war-time, we take things very seriously because our lives are on the line, and the lives of our family of soldiers and battle buddies around us are also in our hands.

The Marines are a strike force, a shock and awe surgical tool designed to batter the enemy before sending in the Army to clean house. It's more important therefore that they are always focused and rigid and "hard ass", or robotic, that they function at their maximum capacity to do the job they're required of, which is a source of constant stress and pressure, as they are typically taxi'd around the world by the Navy and sent into whatever combat scenario they're expected to do.

Fortunately, the Army is not the Marines, or else there would be a lot more suicides happening after they get out.....

I believe it starts with the parents of recruits/trainees. These kids have lived a life of not getting disciplined, and back talking and the parents just let them because they’re so worried about being their friend. The kids now believe that you need to cater to them, which in turn has forced the Army’s hand into doing so. So now you literally have brats that join for either school, or just because they wanna look cool. Look at some of your soldiers profiles and see how they pose in Snapchat stories with their uniforms. It’s about image for them, but they hate being told what to do. And the army allows a PV2 to have power enough to back talk his/hers higher ups.

This is problematic and symbolizes the civilian problem at a much closer view.

Call it what it is, lack of discipline and respect growing up, thinking they are entitled. When these individuals enter service is the time to mold them teach them, stress card my butt. Things have changed so much, Officers aren't staying in their lane and letting NCOs do their job. NCOs letting Officers do there job, I come from a generation where NCOs lead the way. NCOs train your Soilders to do your job give them responsibility and hold them to a standard. You'd be surprised

Isn't obvious? A generation expecting entitlements and it is not only the enlisted personnel, it all throughout the whole armed forces at almost all levels. The brass is allowing it and they are the biggest responsible (or irresponsible) for it.
I started in 1996 and left in 2001 wanting to come back and rejected due to a physical injury in 2003. Because I could not come back, I became a civilian chemist while most my buddies went from enlisted personnel to officers ranks.
My buddies are the embodiment of success through sheer intelligence and persistence. However, when I speak with about half of them (still serving), they act like children and do not know what is going on around the world. This is part of their job, to understand and act to protect our country. The top brass that allows for this immaturity must pay regardless of rank and position. Discipline starts at the top and unfortunately, it supposed to start with our commander in chief (not to be political but behavior critical). That is not happening and so, how do you expect to impart discipline when the mature and the military top brass act like entitled children?

Yes, this is long but it goes a long way to be a little more insightful and consider the different aspects of why it is of what you see. Of course there is a broad range of multiple issues but I emphasize clearly on the well-being of soldiers.

It is the lack of commitment, trust, and competence of leaders who allow disrespect and indiscipline to run rampant. Although I would love to introduce the motion of political integration, instead I will focus on what truly matters.

Upon entering service we are indoctrinated about the values in leadership, as well as how it is implemented, but most of all our commitment to the welfare of soldiers. Units rely heavily on the individual efforts of troops, especially Non-Commissioned Officers and their subordinates upon mission accomplishment. New soldiers to their first unit are motivated and willing to perform but over time being overlooked for skill level expansion and overworked without recognition or much needed mentorship to excel can and will evolve soldiers to become less compliant or the common ‘shitbag’ status perceived we all love to share.

I’ve seen many soldiers who seemed perfect in fact, but due to leadership and the works of our system they get burnt or just exit service altogether realizing the propaganda of recruitment well overrated as well as their potential best utilized elsewhere. Those who have stayed in, either complain and do nothing or idle by on benefits along for the ride of early retirement, unless you have other reasons for staying in.

It is challenging to find good leaders who not only empower soldiers to better themselves but be reliable and trustworthy. Understandably many leaders lose competence over the focus of progression and with the army changing promotions and performance expectations this not only encourages this but also strays further from soldiering in order to meet desired standards. I could invest time to train soldiers but time for myself to involve civilian education, military schools, and performance upon duties & responsibilities, not to mention taking on additional tasks for broadening evaluation performance is literally drained. Don’t forget you’re mix of training requirements, mandatory monthly briefings, and the mission requirements leaving you blown away at the thought of anything more than counseling’s as a resolve. Although how many of you honestly keep up with those? Also for those who do more to make connections and various achievements, good for you.

Also important to note these qualities mean nothing when seeking key positions in order for better chances of guaranteed promotion and progression. A pulled record brief and interview will value the personality and the preferred background performance of the individual whether they fit the bill or not. So don’t stress the importance of being a good leader just whether or not you can fulfill the job requirements expected of you. Quite interesting but sometimes for the best.

I can’t entirely blame leaders for not being leaders through responsibilities and expectations but preventable deaths and consistent disappointment in the system to better the lives of soldiers has taken its toll. The lack of discipline reflects this with acknowledging there are different forms of respect and undisciplined behavior. There is always drama with soldiers over leaders and consistent childish behavior especially with social media but well deserved to how these leaders are leaders in the first place. I must say it is an embarrassment to see more junior soldiers competent in their MOS over non-commissioned officers including things leaders should already know again trumped by junior soldiers. Substandard. Do you not know the implications of that?

So we could look at generational changes, pathetic parenting in what kids are as of now, but lets be realistic and take a deep breath. What we have going on within upon the health verses wealth debate. But yes, it is much different to the Marines Corps of course and your perception of discipline far from what I could maybe imagine to be or out of this world. Personally I lead in a way soldiers can trust as well as confide in me at anytime and provide independence within their roles to strengthen confidence and competence.

It is annoying to see those junior soldiers who have acted like some of the responses below just knowing then I would have been knocked out on the spot but really because they proceed to run to IG or whatever program to hide behind for their actions. They have yet to meet the fear of god honestly.

Curiously, what do you do to enhance soldiers for success and the perceived expectation of discipline? Also for those undisciplined and disrespectful, what resolved it?

Start in bootcamp. Return to sixties level. Do not let anyone out of boot without meeting strict standards of behavior and discipline. Actually punish wrong-doers with article 15. It that does not work move it up to spec ct martial. Assign hard labor for those found guilty. Make sure everyone else sees the example. Sweat in training or bleed in combat.

Bring back hazing or at least real smoke sessions. Get rid of entitlement in the ranks. Having leadership that cares enough to discipline, but also to teach. I have had some amazing NCOs who have smoked the dog shit out of me and who commanded respect, but they’re the same ones I would run through a wall for. I’d follow them into combat any day, in any situation. They are the ones who also taught me how to be tactically and technically proficient. They built trust and set clear expectations. They took ownership of the team, squad, platoon, etc. To the point that it made me want to be better and take more ownership over what I could control to try and pull some burden off their back. The Army has hamstrung it’s good leaders and promoted to many unqualified leaders who could run well. When boards become about finding the intangibles instead of seeing who can regulations and creeds or pt scores pissing contests then they will begin to see a culture change again

From what I've seen, standards have been lowered,to accommodate our new troops. Can't understand why,the military would be willing to coddle them. We were a tight knit unit all the way through basic. after we got our assignment, were expected to carry ourselves according to military protocol. If not disciplinary action was taken.

IMO, when the military started giving out participation awards and becoming a social club(gender issues, non-deployment, lowering of standards) vs. killing people and breaking things =. The military as a whole started down a path that it is having problems recovering from today.

I believe it has more to do with an easing of the punishments, at training level, for lack of respect infractions. I don't know if they still exist (though I know they once did) but I heard some stories about "time-out" cards being issued to basic trainees. I was in before they existed. That added to this "everything is offensive to somebody" mentality that seems to be permeating our culture is surely a big part of what you're seeing.

The military reflects the greater society if comes from. Young people today are not as disciplined as older veterans. They were raised to be selfish, not selfless. A generalization for sure but I believe it to be true. From what I've read, the Marines are not as disciplined now as they once were but I don't have your cross service experience.

It appears the Marines are not quite the role model for discipline and respect these days either. Looks like there is a white papers worth of screw ups just at Camp LeJune. ;)

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2019/05/02/crackdown-at-lejeune-inside-the-2nd-marine-division-commanders-controversial-call-for-discipline/

I retired in 2013, so my perspective is a little dated. Discipline always seemed to vary from unit to unit, culture and climate in the organization usually being the main factor. Although, I think every branch probably has its issues and culture/climate being the root cause. For example, the USMC making the news with hazing incidents, usually E-3's and E-4's asserting themselves over the new privates in ridiculous ways. That would be a discipline problem in its own right, but that behavior is frowned upon in public, and condoned behind closed doors. If it is against policy, why does it keep happening? Maybe its the culture. Same goes for poor discipline in some Army units. If its allowed, it becomes the culture and will keep happening until leadership changes the culture.

Once the army introduced stress cards for the recruits, that was the begining. Also, the young soldiers now have this short term mentality, meaning they don't know or even care that their actions will have long term effects on their careers or even their lives.

Lloyd James Austin III as secretary of Defense is about as weak as General Patton was outspoken while Gen. Milley is so “woke” he has to study his new enemy, the “ANGRY WHITE MAN” as part of his CRT and indoctrination. Not to mention his phone call Democrat influenced phone call to his CCP counterpart to reassure that he would warn them in case president Trump ordered an attack on China. There lies your problem our alleged leaders from dementia Biden to the whole democratic administration weakening our military.

For a long time coming, these young enlistees feel entitled, you can’t touch them and are filled with cockiness because it’s become so hard to discipline them. For years even long after my retirement, service members out in public do not have the respect they had for officers, NCOs and veterans. So they get by with things time after time with no consequences for their behaviors. This seem to be carried over from their civilian life. Without discipline, there is no separation of leader and the student.

This has been a growing problem for the Active Army since at least '01 and is practically a disease in the Reserves and Nat Guard units.
This all started around 2000/01, the Liberal parent sorts were all worried about training cadres hazing, over-stressing, and emotionally abusing their poor, sweet babies during Basic, airborne, and other schools. In response the Army adopted 'stress cards' for the little darlings going through Basic. These cards were like mood rings; whiny kid puts his/her thumb on the designated area of the card and it turns a certain color based on whatever it was those things "detect". If it turned a certain color, then whiny kid was stressed and drill cadre were no longer allowed do their jobs until the card indicated the kid was no longer being stressed.
(You can probably hear the eye-rolling I am doing)
I am not sure if these cards were used in other training scenarios, like airborne school but I watched a few news articles at the time about airborne qualification badges no longer being blood pinned as had been the tradition because it had upset some parents, who deemed it as hazing.

In Reserve and NG units, the discipline problems stem largely from too much familiarity within the units and the "Good Ol' Boy" syndrome.
It is a literal possibility to become the Top NCO (1SG or CSM) and never, ever leave the unit. Officers get shuffled around a bit more but it is still possible to end up in command of the unit you started as a 2nd Lt. in and still know every senior NCO when you take command as a Capt. or Lt. Col.
Fraternization and the use of first names between all ranks of Enlisted and Officers is very common.
I have also seen 'legacies' join Reserve and NG units; units where fathers and/or grandfathers had been a part of and likely retired from the unit, a good portion of the unit watched these kids grow up.

Bit ironic. The one time I got into major trouble was disrespecting a corporal. At the time, the standard to be promoted to corporal at that post, and some said Army wide, was to be infantry, any of the infantry specialties. There were some that were other MOS's, and I was put underneath one. The unit was winding down, as the specialty, HAWK missile batteries, were being discontinued in favor of Patriots. The corporal in question was always giving orders, never followed up or followed through, just reporting to cadre that were working on removing me from the Army(another problem). I was sent out on the last field exercise to use the HAWKs, and was responsible for bring certain requested equipment for the exercise. The corporal was given the request, took it to other cadre, and came back with a different list, less than half of what had been requested for the exercise. I went to the senior NCO I would be reporting to regarding what had been authorized, and no one would return or respond to phone calls. I ended up working directly with my supply sergeant, E-6, who authorized the original request and allowed me to take the equipment. Long story short, come back from exercise to be told I will face charges of theft and misappropriation of government equipment, and no one in the chain of command will assist me in getting said equipment returned to field ready in my allotted 72 hours. Parts that had been donated to get this unit up to speed by me, were requested back if not needed, and low and behold, said corporal suddenly shows up to start yelling about adding even more charges if I return the needed equipment. He threatened me with an a$$ whipping, I told him to bring it on. I lost rank as that chain decided to hold to the letter of all forms of punishment they could meet out over the next two weeks. Yes, I should have not played the game, understood it for the set up that it was. Not my proudest moment in the Army. Sadly, I saw this at all levels of rank, junior through officer, and some dont ever take to heart the responsibility and commitment they are getting themself into, and dont adapt.

Individual observations don't add up to a picture of the Army as a totaled. The old expression, exceptional claims require exceptional proofs. To say the Army is going to hell in a hand basket does require some rigorous proof. How you get it is another can of worms.

I think I answered this one already. But in case I didn't, it definitely isn't limited to the junior enlisted. Lack of discipline exists within ALL of the Army populations. I want to say it's the trickle-down effect where Joe or Jane see their leaders do the wrong thing and not face the repercussions of doing the wrong thing or how junior leaders see senior leaders do that same kind of thing and not be held responsible, yet these junior leaders are expected to teach Joe & Jane to "do the right thing" and they respond with something like, "well SFC, 1SG, SGM, LT, CPT, MAJ, or COL so and so did this or that. So why can't do it, too?" It happened a lot during my career.

Causes:
Woke
Cancel culture
LGBTQ+............
CRT
Inclusiveness

Your perception of the situation is wrong. The army has actual people who are being trained to think for themselves, and the marine corps has a bunch of fanatics running around trying to be the ultimate marine.

Furthermore, if you were interacting with reservists and National Guardsmen, then you were dealing with a completely different set of people.

I was specialist in my unit, I had a master's degree in Public Administration, and I supervised 5 employees, who were professional planners. When I worked retail going through University, i ran a store with 30 employees. That means as a specialist, I had more managerial experience and direct leadership experience than my Platoon Sergeant who was a Correctional Officer in a prison, with no supervisory role. My platoon leader was fresh out of Officer Basic Course, and was some type of set designer for the film industry, and he literally did not know shit about being on active duty, let alone anything about how to run a scout platoon.

And MY BN Co? his active duty time consisted of making 3rd class as an HM int he Navy, and then spending the rest of his time as some type of AGR administrator for the counter drug operations. My BN XO was a PFC in the Marine Corps before getting his commission, and my fucking company commander had been in the guard so long he had a federal commission with an ASSOCIATES DEGREE, after, wait for it... serving in the Marine Corps as a PFC.

We as enlisted men ran our unit, because the officers were worthless, and in many situations the NCO's were too.

While this may be an Army wide phenomenon, I have seen it manifest itself in society as a whole as a lack of respect. I am a retired teacher, and a couple of years ago, I had a mother come to me and tell me in no uncertain terms that HER son would not call me sir. I was shocked. If I had not called a teacher sir or ma'm, my 1st Sgt dad might not have let me see the next morning.

Too many parents run to protect their baby, by calling their Congress members who run down there to pit someone in their place instead of telling the parents that their baby is an adult & their adult child decided to join the Army (in this case) & tell need to go sit down somewhere. It doesn't help when politicians want to play games with the military either.

Discipline in the Army. First you must gain respect. Once you gain their respect. Then the Soldiers will have more discipline. If the Soldiers don't like you then they will not have Discipline. Discipline comes with the morale of the United. If you have a chain of command that doesn't care about the troops. The morale is down which deals with discipline.

I think some of it is the fact that the majority of the lower enlisted ranks are young and immature still. They are testing the waters to see what they can get away with often. The Marines seemed to me to have much stricter expectations of the character of our branch. Yes, we also had some screw offs that needed a lesson or two (sometimes more) to get their act together. It didn't always work and after a while of dealing with them they were given an undesirable discharge. That was a last resort when nothing else really worked.

I would have thought that the "All Volunteer Army" would not have the lack of discipline and respect that seems to be a real problem these days. Is it possible that recruiting standards have been lowered too much? Is it possible that this problem is shared by NCO's and Jr. enlisted?

You wouldn’t have lasted a week in the Draftee Army. I was often an 18 year old, non high school graduate, Sergeant with a platoon of 23-24 year olds with some college. Yelling only made you look silly. The idea was to keep them focused on the mission, they wanted to get done as much as I did

Capt Wilford, I think it's as much the result of how the current generation of (many; perhaps even most) soldiers today were raised. Same old stuff --- tropies for LOSING; advancing through elementary and high school regardless of grades, etc. I had a principal tell me once during a Sheriiff's drug orienttion program for parents, "Our primary mob is to get these kids, THROUGH the system and OUT of school." She was dead serious, and I looked at her and bluntly stated, "Obviously EDUCATION isn't in your sylabus or your goals!" Fortunately, she only lasted ONE school year.
Recruits for many years now are pushed trough BCT and their MOS schools the same way. I once had a PV2 who was actually ILLITERATE ... every report he would write was spelled phonetically - such as:
Laceration was lassarashun, etc. When I had his partner re-write the DD Form 2823 with a Q&A format, when the kid signed it, he had to take his ID card out and copy his signature by DRAWING it! I asked how he signed the ID and he said, "My Drill Sergeant did it." We eventually got him chaptered out, but he's an example of how some instructors FAIL THE ARMY and also the Recruits.

Simple there is a problem in leadership.

For the same reason all the other branches do. We recruit children off the streets before their brains have even finished developing (human brain doesn't finish developing until approximately age 25).
From a biological standpoint, the bulk of the armed forces are cognitively impaired.

Could possibly come from 20+ years of toxic leadership on all levels that's run unchecked because of constant rotations. Even though the ARMY knows it's there, that it's costing them billions in attrition rates. They make the minimal effort to deal with it. How can you have respect for leadership that's constantly unchecked with known sexual assaults, domestic violence, substance abuse issues, etc...