Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Discipline
Enlisted
UCMJ
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 255
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The lack of discipline is rampant, across our society, along with a lack of respect. We have corrupted everything in life and thrown away guiding principles... Religion, morals and ethics. Our children don't say the pledge of allegiance in schools, Religion is frowned upon and in decline...even our founding documents are looked at as archaic pieces of paper which are supposed to be considered changeable. America is on the decline like the many great states of the past, such as Rome before her. Soon it will be but a memory and what replaces it will only be created by death and bloodshed...Only then will people realize that they squandered and killed a perfect union. Perhaps they will finally learn what our history teachers once taught us..."Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat history.!"
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I would say it is because the Government getting involved with the way we run the Army, which is the way we were taught by the ones before us and the ones before them and so on.
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My personal opinion is based on my 34 years in the Army (both enlisted time and officer). I came in when the Army was transitioning to the all volunteer Army. During my years I have seen a reduction in respect for NCOs and officers. The Army is catering to the Generational wants of new recruits (both enlisted and officer), this is especially true in the last couple of years, with the new (still not official) PT test and the reins being pulled back on Drill Sgts. When I was in basic training (1977), the main goal was to turn civilians into future soldiers, by pushing the trainees to the limit mentally and physically. The outcome of Basic was having a trainee, who understood the chain of command and was ready for training in their MOS. This is not the case today.
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Look at the questions that get posted on here. Young enlisted personal complaining about their rights being abused, making us work Saturday, inspecting my room, telling me how I can dress to travel, the list goes on and on. I don't want to be that cranky old dude, but I mean when I signed the contract, I felt I gave up my free will for the term, today, the kids demand their rights to everything. Don't curse at my boy drill instructor, you might hurt his feelings. Or going from don't ask don't tell, to the military should pay for my sex change. My room mate was gay in 76, we all knew it, we didn't care. He did his job. Now not all units might have been that way, but it was my experience. He was not the first one, nor the first one known, and would not be the last. But now, I am sure you would be concerned about how you talked to a gay soldier, because you could end up having charges brought. Its a different world I guess.
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I believe its more of a brotherhood thing and comroderie thing. When i was lower enlisted i showed my respect in situations that called for it but as a whole we were all brothers in arms and that was more of a show than anything. When i was deployed for operation uphold democracy in Haiti im not sure i ever said yes sargeant or anything of that nature. We were more worried about getting shot by aks at that point. I ultimately ended my tour there for last 90 days driving colnels and higher many times driving certain generals and i hope I maintained my discipline with rank then but when bullets were flying i can promise you i didnt say sir or ma’am. Just a though situation dictates alot
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I believe that the discipline problems in the Army (and all the military services) is a generational one. When I started on Active Duty in the post Vietnam volunteer Army, there were all kinds of problems with discipline, alcohol, drugs etc. I kept very busy as an MP in Germany dragging wayward soldiers to the station or in some cases they went directly to their 1SG. Continuing my service in the Guard, things vastly improved in the 80's and 90's. Discipline suffered again about 3-5 years after 9/11 as the Army lowered standards for enlistment because of the need for manpower. Waivers for law violations, drug use and taking in non HS graduates. As you reap so shall you sow. The recent generations of recruits also come in with an entitlement mentality. The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. It's not across the board. I agree with the SFC who commented that the more hard charging units like Airborne, Cav, Rangers and outfits such as the USMC have more dedicated soldiers thus less disciplinary problems compared to the general soldier. I've glossed over several topics but you could easily write a book about this issue. Many more factors are at play here involving our society as a whole. Good luck. Hope I've given you some food for thought.
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CPT Wilford, I am willing to bet that neither post was Fort Bragg. I visited Bragg once - stopped a very senior SP4 (I was an E-5 SGT),to ask a question, he went to parade rest, shouted his unit motto and answered my request. I was one of those Army linguist made E-5 in 2 years (and stayed E-5 until I got out 6 years later). Different posts, different commands and different focus on Military Courtesy and discipline.
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This raises the question, is this lack of discipline and increase in discipline issues reflect the society as a whole? I am curious if this problem is common with other civilizations as they declined. It would be very interesting to see if there are any original accounts from the Roman legions, the Spartans, or other legendary fighting forces documenting a similar issues as the society declined.
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Having been Navy and a tour with an Amphibious (FMFPAC), they are numerically smaller than an Army unit. When on a small “warship”... you can fall over. (You don’t piss off people). Having commanded Two Army Basic Training commands and Infantry .... the size of the Army is huge. Go from a Navy/Marine command of hundreds to a Light Division of well over 10,000 and discipline can be a problem... I have personally walked men through their separations and reduced an E-6 to E-3. Also, the lower ranks tend to be just out of High School, and are initiated to alcohol.
Thank you for being honest and admit that we are one fighting force. Personally, I was a smart a__ , and had a Senior Chief and a Gunnery Sergeant “Counsel” me (in a dark passageway). Historically, the Navy and Marines fight each other... but will come together when it matters.... which will be joined by the Army too. Pride runs deep in all branches.
JO3, Buck Sgt., Captain, IN
Thank you for being honest and admit that we are one fighting force. Personally, I was a smart a__ , and had a Senior Chief and a Gunnery Sergeant “Counsel” me (in a dark passageway). Historically, the Navy and Marines fight each other... but will come together when it matters.... which will be joined by the Army too. Pride runs deep in all branches.
JO3, Buck Sgt., Captain, IN
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A lot of the young soldiers have been too pampered in their lives and don't like to be told what to do or not do. Everybody is equal, all get a trophy, etc... I saw this already in 2002 before I retired after 28 yrs of svc.
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LT Michael Conquest
I got out in 2002 and probably a good thing I did. Political Correctness was already rearing it's ugly head.
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The concern over military discipline is a valid one. However, I have been through this with the Marines and the Army from 1961 through 1993. I was a Marine from 1961 - 1967 and an Army Green Beret from 1967 / 1994. I experianced some disrespect for those in authority. The Marines handled with Article 15’s and loss of rank. The Army gave the offender more rope to hang hisself, then lowered the hammer hard. They both had morale problems afterwards. Some came around and it was a win, some didn’t and were discharged with various discharges that fit the charges in the board or authority pressing charges.
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Sir and not being a dick here just my observations. I have been Retired since 1996 and have overtly watched the decline of the US ARMY that I served in. My opinion if you want excellent information for your white paper. Just hang around on rally point look at questions asked, Then see the answers I have seen in one thread where you get three totally different answers too one small leadership question/situation. RP is full of these kind of examples. Soldiers saying " its just a job just like any other civilian job" and seniors both Officer and NCO'S agree with them.
Unfortunately when the Senior leadership see's it "Just as a job like any other job" That is all you have.
When you have civilians telling the Military how to run the show, what leadership is, what discipline is, What to do with a Soldier When Charged with,? My opinion once the civilians get that involved you are doomed to fail and especially when you have Seniors agreeing with the Civilians. How did this happen? Well I have my opinions how ever some times you have to decide if you want to attack that Hill at this time or not. This is one of those times that I will have to admit that Hill 429 is going to be their tomorrow.
Best information is right here on RP in the questions asked and by whom, And how they are answered and by whom. Hope this helps. Good luck with your with paper and Thank you for your service.
Unfortunately when the Senior leadership see's it "Just as a job like any other job" That is all you have.
When you have civilians telling the Military how to run the show, what leadership is, what discipline is, What to do with a Soldier When Charged with,? My opinion once the civilians get that involved you are doomed to fail and especially when you have Seniors agreeing with the Civilians. How did this happen? Well I have my opinions how ever some times you have to decide if you want to attack that Hill at this time or not. This is one of those times that I will have to admit that Hill 429 is going to be their tomorrow.
Best information is right here on RP in the questions asked and by whom, And how they are answered and by whom. Hope this helps. Good luck with your with paper and Thank you for your service.
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I've been out 50 years, but what I saw then and in the jobs I have had since then have not changed. Lack of respect and discipline in the lower ranks start with lack of respect and discipline in the upper ranks, NCO and Officer. If you are a Corporal, Buck Sgt. or Staff Sgt then the E-1 through E-4's are not your buddies. By the same token, E-7's and E-8's are not your buddies. They should be your teachers to prepare you to advance to the higher level as you should be teaching the lower ranks to improve themselves. You need to remember, once upon a time you too were a Private and did the same stupid things that they are doing now. When I was promoted to Sgt I was moved out of the bay with all the Spc. 4's and to a NCO bay. I was moved from my platoon I had been in for a year and to another platoon. 3 of us were promoted the same day and the First Sgt explained to us that we were no longer "enlisted men" but NCO's and had new responsibilities. 2 months later two of us were still Sgt's and one was a Spc. 4 again. He did not want to be a Sgt and leave his buddies.
I saw the same thing in the officer's ranks. Our company CO's were usually 2nd Lts and not much past the learning stage. But Maj. Lucino the Bn XO and LTC Robert Greenberg the Bn C.O were outstanding if you needed help. They were always available to help their troops from PFC to SFC's .
Now in 14 months in Nam I never met the BN commander or his XO. I think he flew into our compound once while I was on a convoy. The BN Sgt Maj. stayed as well hidden as they did. Our company commander was a drunk. He thought nothing of coming to the NCO hooch at 2am and waking us up to drink Schlitz with him. If he went on one of our convoys he took his cooler with beer with him. He was a nice guy and a good guy but not a good officer.
I saw the same thing in the officer's ranks. Our company CO's were usually 2nd Lts and not much past the learning stage. But Maj. Lucino the Bn XO and LTC Robert Greenberg the Bn C.O were outstanding if you needed help. They were always available to help their troops from PFC to SFC's .
Now in 14 months in Nam I never met the BN commander or his XO. I think he flew into our compound once while I was on a convoy. The BN Sgt Maj. stayed as well hidden as they did. Our company commander was a drunk. He thought nothing of coming to the NCO hooch at 2am and waking us up to drink Schlitz with him. If he went on one of our convoys he took his cooler with beer with him. He was a nice guy and a good guy but not a good officer.
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It might be a symptom of how the culture is shifting, away from the old rigid standards!
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1SG the Army has not catered to generational changes lack of and poor leadership has done that, disrespect should not ever be tolerated, two things a solder hates to lose is time and money AR 15 can do both
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Suspended Profile
I could ask the same of NCOs and officers who had little or no discipline at all, even in 2008 and such. You want to discriminate on a select group of the most underprivileged, overworked and intimidated group of the military, and you expect them to act as kiss-ass robot doormats for NCOs who may or may not have *earned* their rank, or officers whose only merit of holding the rank is in possessing a college degree. I find your belittlement and condescending nature typical for an officer, but also disturbing.
On another note, here in the Army, while in rare cases there are issues with a lack of genuine respect, it's far more common that we treat each other like family. Officers are our parents or big brothers/sisters, down through NCOs to the lower enlisted. The Army is a family unit. Is it truly a lack of respect, or bonding between family?
Ah, I see you're a Marine. Well there you go. Perhaps since most Marines (vast majority) come from broken or extremely dysfunctional families, you might not understand this analogy.
Nevertheless, when in war-time, we take things very seriously because our lives are on the line, and the lives of our family of soldiers and battle buddies around us are also in our hands.
The Marines are a strike force, a shock and awe surgical tool designed to batter the enemy before sending in the Army to clean house. It's more important therefore that they are always focused and rigid and "hard ass", or robotic, that they function at their maximum capacity to do the job they're required of, which is a source of constant stress and pressure, as they are typically taxi'd around the world by the Navy and sent into whatever combat scenario they're expected to do.
Fortunately, the Army is not the Marines, or else there would be a lot more suicides happening after they get out.....
On another note, here in the Army, while in rare cases there are issues with a lack of genuine respect, it's far more common that we treat each other like family. Officers are our parents or big brothers/sisters, down through NCOs to the lower enlisted. The Army is a family unit. Is it truly a lack of respect, or bonding between family?
Ah, I see you're a Marine. Well there you go. Perhaps since most Marines (vast majority) come from broken or extremely dysfunctional families, you might not understand this analogy.
Nevertheless, when in war-time, we take things very seriously because our lives are on the line, and the lives of our family of soldiers and battle buddies around us are also in our hands.
The Marines are a strike force, a shock and awe surgical tool designed to batter the enemy before sending in the Army to clean house. It's more important therefore that they are always focused and rigid and "hard ass", or robotic, that they function at their maximum capacity to do the job they're required of, which is a source of constant stress and pressure, as they are typically taxi'd around the world by the Navy and sent into whatever combat scenario they're expected to do.
Fortunately, the Army is not the Marines, or else there would be a lot more suicides happening after they get out.....
Capt Michael Wilford
This is one of the most long winded, ignorant, and just plain stupid diatribes I have read on Rally Point. Your response is the very reason the question was asked. Go get educated on real facts before replying back.
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Suspended Profile
Capt Michael Wilford - Spoken like a true Marine; common sense bounces off your head and analogies that are meant to inspire brotherhood and familial camaraderie just go through one ear and out the other.
I am educated, good lad, moreso than yourself. Moreso than most people. I'm also a teacher and educate others; big surprise, right? I also speak facts, and since I have served in the Army and you have not, I speak to what I have seen and the state of mind that exists among Army members; we're a family, not an asinine group of tryhards who act like they're invincible.
Lastly, the question was asked concerning lower enlisted.
Originally I served as enlisted, and saw in GREAT DETAIL how *officers* just like you strut around and expect to be treated like royalty while treating enlisted like peasants and junior enlisted like serfs, even though an enlisted CSM has as much experience and respect-earned as a bird Colonel or a 1-star general; and yet, they are forced to obey a fresh-out-of-college 2nd LT who only received their commission because they graduated with a degree in "(Placeholder)"; yet aside from the degree, the 2nd LT is no different than an E-1 Private. A Captain therefore, like yourself, would be no different than a Private First Class or a Specialist.
I am an officer, and I carry a rank above yours, but for the purposes of this silly website whose members often ass-kiss officers and belittle junior enlisted, I choose to be junior enlisted rather than be ass-kissed. I'm also a Chaplain with quite an extensive academic background; unlike some of my brethren however, I don't sugarcoat shit with warm fuzzy feelings, I call people out on their bullshit and tell it like it is. More of a pragmatic Drill Sergeant-esque Chaplain than a cuddly bear with a seminary degree goofing around in a uniform.
But none of this really matters; we're both veterans, our ranks don't mean shit anymore. At least, I know it doesn't; you clearly act like you're still a captain worthy of "respect mah authoritah!" in the civilian world.
It's time you transitioned fully.
P.S. Also if you thought my first post was "long-winded", then you really need to watch what you say when you're telling others to get educated, cause Lord have mercy, you must be bad at reading if you struggle with a few paragraphs.
I am educated, good lad, moreso than yourself. Moreso than most people. I'm also a teacher and educate others; big surprise, right? I also speak facts, and since I have served in the Army and you have not, I speak to what I have seen and the state of mind that exists among Army members; we're a family, not an asinine group of tryhards who act like they're invincible.
Lastly, the question was asked concerning lower enlisted.
Originally I served as enlisted, and saw in GREAT DETAIL how *officers* just like you strut around and expect to be treated like royalty while treating enlisted like peasants and junior enlisted like serfs, even though an enlisted CSM has as much experience and respect-earned as a bird Colonel or a 1-star general; and yet, they are forced to obey a fresh-out-of-college 2nd LT who only received their commission because they graduated with a degree in "(Placeholder)"; yet aside from the degree, the 2nd LT is no different than an E-1 Private. A Captain therefore, like yourself, would be no different than a Private First Class or a Specialist.
I am an officer, and I carry a rank above yours, but for the purposes of this silly website whose members often ass-kiss officers and belittle junior enlisted, I choose to be junior enlisted rather than be ass-kissed. I'm also a Chaplain with quite an extensive academic background; unlike some of my brethren however, I don't sugarcoat shit with warm fuzzy feelings, I call people out on their bullshit and tell it like it is. More of a pragmatic Drill Sergeant-esque Chaplain than a cuddly bear with a seminary degree goofing around in a uniform.
But none of this really matters; we're both veterans, our ranks don't mean shit anymore. At least, I know it doesn't; you clearly act like you're still a captain worthy of "respect mah authoritah!" in the civilian world.
It's time you transitioned fully.
P.S. Also if you thought my first post was "long-winded", then you really need to watch what you say when you're telling others to get educated, cause Lord have mercy, you must be bad at reading if you struggle with a few paragraphs.
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I believe it starts with the parents of recruits/trainees. These kids have lived a life of not getting disciplined, and back talking and the parents just let them because they’re so worried about being their friend. The kids now believe that you need to cater to them, which in turn has forced the Army’s hand into doing so. So now you literally have brats that join for either school, or just because they wanna look cool. Look at some of your soldiers profiles and see how they pose in Snapchat stories with their uniforms. It’s about image for them, but they hate being told what to do. And the army allows a PV2 to have power enough to back talk his/hers higher ups.
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LT Michael Conquest
Agreed! Entitlement and "Look at Me" are rampant among today's youth. With that comes a general lack of respect, good order and discipline.
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This is problematic and symbolizes the civilian problem at a much closer view.
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