Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?

In my humble opinion people, in order to adhere to basic military core values you should treat all members with the same amount of respect. Whether they are an E-1 or one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They both raised thier right hand and swore to give their lives for this country. Furthermore they are both human beings and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. If a junior officer is disrespectful to a senior enlisted leader then it is the senior enlisted leaders responsibility to mentor the JO offline in a dignified manner. Regardless of rank, the true leader, the person the people will follow, is recognized by their strength of character and virtue.

By the books and regulation, yes. Same with Warrant Officers... Now would I recommend an O-1 do that? Hah, well, I would let them figure that out on their own.

As a retired CSM, I will tell you that I would have followed the 2LTs order. We should maintain the standards at all times. Even the lowest TIG officer still outranks the most senior NCO. Upon completion of said discussion however, we would have had a mentoring session on my role and authority within the organization. I never forgot my role of teaching and mentoring all officers to include LTC/COLs when I served at the 2 Star Nominative level. It is a tremendous amount of responsibility when you sit next to the Boss and you speak on their behalf. It does take a mature person to understand how to communicate and support meeting the CDRs intent while supporting the leaders at all levels.

So there I was, in 2005, Ft Bliss, I was on gate guard at the motor pool. The BN CSM comes walking up and I jump up quickly, grab my weapon, I open the guard shack door and greet the CSM. He asks how we are doing and if we need anything from him (wouldn't say yes if my life depended on it) I told him negative CSM, all is great here. He told me to follow him as he strolled through the motor pool to look at everything in it's place. So I'm trucking along behind him, trying to stay close enough to hear him if he spoke to me, but far enough not to be too close.

I saw someone approaching us from about 25 meters ahead, thinking it's just some random private. I looked at his rank and realized he was a 1LT, and passed by us and the CSM said nothing to him as he was distracting looking all around. I saluted with my weapon and said the usual yada yada crap, right as I dropped my salute, I hear the 1LT say "Hey CSM, at least acknowledge me when passing by, or salute, you should know the standard." At that moment in my life, my eyes got wide and my heart started beating fast, wondering if I am seriously hearing those words.

The CSM turned around and said "Hey LT, if you didn't realize by now that if a CSM walks past you without saluting or acknowledging you, keep f*cking moving!" At this point, I felt like I was watching the apocalypse happening right in front of my face, the LT said "CSM, can we talk to the side please?" The CSM said, and I'll never forget this, "LT how long have you been in?", the LT says "about 3 years", the CSM laughed and said "My shinny boots, my badges, and even my soft cap have more TIS than you have" The CSM saluted him very sarcastically and said "You got your salute, but I'll get the last laugh kid". I wanted to slow clap so badly but I wasn't as stupid as that LT. Never heard what happened to the LT but I wish I could have.

Yes... he would. An O1 is still an officer and an E9 is still enlisted.

The correct rephrasing of this question should be "Would it be wise for an O1 to call an E9 to attention". We all know the answer to that. How this question is actually trending vexes me.

back in the day, i'm a BM1 rig captain on an LKA putting mike6's and mike8's in the water in choppy seas with a freshly minted butter bar as safety officer. I've got a 10 ton mike 8 swinging over my head and he starts giving orders to my crew getting em all jacked up. I tell the ensign his job is safety officer not rig captain and unless he sees something unsafe he needs to be quiet. went thru this several times before I finally told him to STFU and get off my station and not come back til he learned something. got a "i'm an officer, you can't talk to me like that". Told him " I will promise you an ass-chewin from the old man every day for the next two weeks if you don't leave". he don't leave and by this time CO goin nuts and BMC on station wantin to know what's goin on. BMC ends up dragging the ENS away and I finish getting boats in the water without getting my crew hurt. 2 weeks later ENS comes up to me and says 'OK Boats, you made your point. What do I need to do?" so I laid it out for him. Turned into one of the best damn DivO's I ever had. Sometimes they just don't know what they don't know!

Well, this is hardly equitable.

But back in 1981, I was a salty E4, former Recon-Marine, who had spent the last couple of years of my tour skating out in Headquarters company, 7th Marines. I was the NCOIC of the Regimental Armory and had been given a no bullshit warning to get the keys to the armory back to the head-shed Guard Shack no later than 1630, unless I was ordered otherwise by CWO-4 Culbert over at the S4 and my boss.

One day, shortly thereafter, I look at the clock, it's 1615 and I tell my subordinate to get us logged out and let's call the guard and get them down here so he can walk the key home. He says that Special Services still haven't come back with their rifles. So I call down to special services and explain that they've got to get those weapons back down to the armory. I'm informed that the Platoon Leader is going off on the birds... and its going to be a while.

So I call the 4 shop and WO Culbert is out... as is the Major, no one around to OK the time. So i call back down to Ss and inform them that he needs to tell the Lt that if he doesn't get the weapons down to the armory, he'll have a charge sheet sitting on his desk by 1700... and I slam the phone down.

Sure enough, right at 1630, Special Services is doing the best they could in terms of a formation marching down the hill to the armory.

When they get there, Hoover and I are receiving their pieces as fast as humanly possible and I am yelling at them to get those rifles ready and in. A Marine comes to the window and informs me "Corporal we've got a Lt out here" and that I should stop yelling. To which I responded "Good, tell him to get his piece in here."

The next thing I know, there's a pounding on the main hatch and I'm busy as hell os I don't respond. When I finally get the rifles in, I walk out and see what all the pounding is and sure enough it's the Butter-Bar, who is demanding that I get outside and 'lock my body'. "Sir, I'm going to need that .45, I'm under orders to get this armory shut down and your piece is the only thing stopping that from happening.

He continues to demand that I get out there and 'lock my body'. I turn toward Hoover, who's a low time Lance-Corporal and is shitting his pants... . I guess I sorta smiled at the hilarity of the scene, because the Lt went nuclear, jumping around throwing knife hands at the bars... and I said "Lt, you need to calm down or I'm going to have to have the guard lock you up." The Lt. stopped immediately, looked at me like I'd just shot him in the heart... and 'calmly' began to sort of hum or vibrate in rage... slowly telling me to 'get out here'. I said "Lt. I need your piece, once I put in its whole, I'll return your card and you can do what ever you want to me, once I get the keys back to the guard shack."

He slowly pulls his pistol, hands it through the bars, trying to stare me down... I take his piece back to the Hd Qtrs bin, put it away and take the Lts Card back to him. I quietly do a quick security sweep to make sure all the respective bins are locked down and walk back down the quarterdeck looking at the Lt standing there, humming staring daggers through my soul.

When I open the door, the Lt looses it, starts jumping around doing his bet Drill Instructor. So bad is his tirade, the sentry stops, and when I look at him he pulls his rifle from his shoulder to port.

The Lt is steadily demanding that I 'lock my body'. I shook my head toward the sentry and did as loose an attention as I could, without being accused of refusal... listened to him threaten me with everything from being busted to death... and after probably 30 seconds I informed him that I had to get the key to the guard shack and he was welcome to come along, but that I had to go, turned and went.

(Wow, this took longer than I thought it would)

The Lt screamed at me all the way from the Armory, up the hill to the Guard... When I handed the key over to the Duty, I was informed that WO Culbert want to see me ASAP.

The Lt. gets this look of satisifaction on his mug and immediately calms down, returning to some semblance of military bearing... and we walk across the street to the four shop.

When I knocked on Jack Culberts door, the Lt shoves in past me and starts reading WO Culbert the riot act... He just sits there in his chair, as calm as a cucumber; as was his nature... he holds up a finger toward the Lt. and said 'excuse me sir', turns his head toward me... where I am standing with a curious smile in my face... waiting for the show to get started and he says: "Corporal OConner, I'll see you in the morning." The Lt immediately starts to demand I stay, claiming that 'this isn't over...'.

WO Culbert held his attention toward me and firmly says to me, "Leave, take the office with you and close the door."

So as I am backing out, I see the Lt turn to look at me, demanding I stay and I turn my head so as that he wouldn't see the burgeoning smile on my face... and close the door. He continues to yell with no response from the WO, until he hears the outer door close.

THEN... the conversation quieted down. The last thing I heard was "SHUT THE FUCK UP Lt and sit your ass down".

The next morning I had a fatherly/son and matter of fact discussion with Jack. "OConner, You're a good kid...". From there the discussion went real and I was informed that he was rotating back the Rock soon and 'wouldn't be there to protect me' and I should probably find a place to be that wasn't there'. My explanation was that when he gave me the gig, (I was a 27 months Lance Corporal at the time... ) that I promised him that of all his problems, the armory wouldn't be one of them... and that he'd ordered me directly to get that key back, time certain, no excuses. He agreed, but continued to coach me on 'appropriate responses' and that Lts were his problem, not mine, 'situational awareness' and the like.

WOW! I haven't thought of that in a million years... thanks for lettin' me get that out.

Best regards,
Mike O'Conner
Corporal
USMC - 'tired.

As a new 2Lt, I had Brigade Staff Duty (as we all did) and the MPs brought the CSM into the Brigade Headquarters. He was being "detained" for a domestic issue. I called Brigade Commander (BDE XO wasn't answering) and he told me to tell the CSM to stay in the office until he got there. I told him "Sir, no CSM in the world is going to listen to a 2Lt". He started laughing and said you're right, put him on the phone. Later, my Battalion Commander asked me why the Brigade Commander thought I was one of his smartest Lts. I didn't tell him about the CSM issue- wasn't my place. I just let it go. My father was a senior NCO- helped me know when to stay quite.

I saw this happen at Fort Campbell in 1978. The LT ordered the 326 EN BN CSM to attention after stating that the CSM failed to salute him. The CSM stood at attention for almost 15 minutes while the LT chewed him out. When he was done the CSM held formation for all the enlisted members of the battalion and space each enlisted person 10 feet from each other along the path to the LT's office.
as the LT left the office he had to render over 300 salutes before reaching the parking lot. .
This continued to next day for all three meals along the route to the mess hall from the LT's office.
The CSM was the last person in line for each meal. He then informed the LT that a CSM or any other enlisted person in the BN would not intentionally not render a salute to an officer.

Well I have a story on what a CSM told an O-3! So I say that it would defiantly go for an O-1! LMAO
After reading some post decided to share my story.

We had just completed a BN run. We where all standing in formation listening to the BC speak. When he finished and told us we were being released for the day early, as he turned it over to the CSM. His name was CSM Hatcher. 6'7 320 lb Black gentleman. 3 tours in Vietnam. Always called us babies and always warned us to stay away from the "panther piss"! lol told us stories of black plam and being chased by bushmaster snakes. Well, he gave his speech on how well we had done in the field the week prior and started his 5 point safety briefing.

"alright babies, here is your safety brief. 1 If you drink, don't drive. 2 if you drive, don't drink. 3 if you swim, don't drown. 4 if you (have sexual encounter), wear a rain coat. 5 stay the F*&K off my blotter report. You are dismissed!"

Well the BN split. We were told by the CO to stay for HIS safety briefing. He then went inside. Now the CSM is talking over in a corner across the way. He strolls over and ask my Plt Sergeant, why we were still in formation. My Plt Sergeant answered him saying that, we were waiting on the CO's safety brief. Well he blew his lid. " I have given the safety brief already"! I understand, was his reply but it's the CO. He took 3 steps in front of the formation and said and I quote, "If I see 1 swinging d*&k standing here in the next 30 seconds, everyone will be on my detail all weekend"! Just as the CO steps out, we split! rather be chewed out by the commander than being with a pissed off CSM all weekend! Everyone hit the windows that faced the court yard.

To make a long story shorter, the CSM told the CPT, after blowing his top, that he could go to hell. That he signed for us, from him and that we were his men. That he would retire as an E-9 even as he left as an E-1! Well, the BC came over, seeing that we all we watching, politely told them to go to his office and wait for him that the whole BN was watching their escapade!

The CO and the CSM were all buddy, buddy after that. When the CSM released us from that point on the CO let it be. CSM Hatcher retired a few months later and we had a change of command soon after that.

Not saying that was a good way to handle the situation, just sharing the experience.

I only ordered "lock it up Marine" to someone who was getting emotional and needed to take a breath. As soon as they regained their composure, I would tell them "stand easy". I also did not conduct discipline counseling when I was agitated. Sometimes telling someone "we will discuss this later." had the needed calming effect on both of us.

In my day, all of the commissioning sources did a pretty good job of explaining the weight of legal authority held by junior officers vs. wisdom/experience authority held by SNCO's. So I find it really difficult to imagine any Company Grade Officer thinking that locking up a SNCO was a viable course of action.

Other than being intoxicated, I can't imagine a situation where a seasoned Cpl., or a competent Sgt., would get to that point, let alone a Senior SNCO. I guess I might do it with an intoxicated SNCO who was abandoning his rank. But only if his actions had eliminated more discreet courses of action.

LT: SGM, do you have change for a dollar?
SGM: Sure, LT
LT: That's no way to address an officer! Now let's try it again. Do you have change for a dollar?
SGM: No, SIR!

If this happens, things got out of hand a long time before. The average LT should understand the power of the E-9. I had the honor of knowing a couple of Air Force flight engineer CMSgts who had fixed airplanes and flown as crew chiefs and engineers for nearly 30 years--they had flown in Korea and Viet Nam. The Captains and Majors in the squadron set the example for us junior officers by showing them a certain measure of respect, like always calling them "Chief" and asking their opinion on issues in their specialty. I learned quickly to call them Chief with about the same respect I called the Squadron Commander, "colonel." They never did anything to make me even remotely consider trying to pull rank on them. Showing such lack of mature communication with a Chief would probably get you a counseling session with your flight commander and possibly with the unit commander depending on the circumstances. This is not to say that the Chiefs were perfect. If a LT found a problem with a Chief as long as it didn't immediatley effect safety, security, or mission accomplishment, the best thing to do is to talk with your chain of command. The Squadron Commander can talk with the Chief if necessary.

Yes, I would comply: as leaders we are always on display; to not reply is to discredit the young officer and the intregrity of the system. Wold that be the end of it, no. That would be handled between myself the young officer his commander.

I could never do that. There are other ways.

In 35 years I can't recall any LT's 2nd or 1st that went out of their way to talk to a 1SG let alone a SGM/CSM. I do remember a 2LTthat attempted top correct a CSM that was talking to some NCO's and the CSM just have a good day Sir,and walked away shaking his head. Later that day the LT met the BC, problem solved. Hell even before I retired I avoided CSM's/SGM's who in their right mind goes looking for trouble :) . On a side not that maybe some officers can answer, don't they teach you guys/gals to steer clear of grumpy old NONCOMS? There has to be a power point or briefing before you commission. Hell PVT's figure it out in basic :)

I'm only an E-5 and I'd Probably just laugh at them. O-1's don't have much pull

It is a lawful order. A very IL-ADVISED lawful order. An up close and personal meeting will follow the situation I'm sure.

I take it you missed the class in Boot Camp on rank and Officer v. Enlisted??? Why even ask such a question?

As a Master Sergeant (E8) in Afghanistan I passed a young 2LT as I was leaving a building and he was entering. I gave him a quick nod as I put my cap on my head and continued on. He called out, "Hey, troop." I turned my head and he said, "is that how the Army taught you to treat an officer?" I said "I'm not sure what you mean sir" to which he replied "oh now it's sir? You couldn't be bothered to even acknowledge me let alone salute when you passed me a minute ago!" So I went to attention, snapped him a salute, and said, sorry sir, I had things on my mind. I'll remember next time." He actually had the audacity to say, "you'd better."
Fast forward to a regional briefing a few weeks later. All of the brass were there, and I spotted this young 2LT sitting in one of the chairs against the wall as I came in. He also saw me, but looked confused as I took a seat AT THE TABLE. During the meeting the 2LT meekly raised his hand at one point to ask a question about Intel. The 1-Star in charge told him that it would be addressed during the Intel briefing part of the meeting. Shortly after, the 1-Star introduced me and said that as the resident Intel expert for our area I would be delivering the Intel briefing. Then he swiveled in his chair toward the 2LT and said, "Lieutenant, listen to this man. He has answers to questions you don't know to ask yet."
After I completed my briefing the 1-Star informed everyone that my office was the coordinating office for all Intel in the area and that they should all go to me for any questions or needs.
After that the 2LT found his way to my office, and apologized about twenty times over the course of an hour for his behavior. To which I continuously replied, "no worries sir, you're new. Everyone's gotta learn sometime."
MORAL: 1. Treat people with the respect that we all deserve as human beings. 2. Treat those with rank with the respect their ranks demands. 3. Don't EVER lord what you think is your power over others, because 4. someone else's position may be beyond what you think is your power.

*That lieutenant and I got along swimmingly after all of that.