Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

When you change the standards to fit the person, instead of helping the person change to fit an established standard, this is what happens. This occurs, not only in the military, but in civilian life as well.

This is one of those clickbait conversations that you're better off not participating in because those who do have usually made up their minds already. Alas, like a car crash on the side of the freeway, sometimes we can't help but participate in the chaos.

Let's baseline a bit. The Army is more than 6x the size of the Marine Corps when we include all active and reserve billets across both branches (about 1,348,000 Soldiers vs. 224,500 Marines). This also means that the Army reflects a larger portion of our national population (roughly 0.5%) than the Corps does (less than 0.1%). As such, the Army is exponentially more subject to the impacts of social change than the Marine Corps, and we should all be able to agree that there's an immense wave of social change in this day and age. Add to all of this that the Marine Corps hand-selects candidates based on a mission-specific profile, or those candidates self-select into a known culture of intense discipline; while the Army take a much more broad-stroke approach to filling its wide array of global personnel shortages. The result of these differentiated recruiting efforts is clear as day from boot camp to front-line formations.

The Marines take land, the Army holds land. As a former Army Infantryman, I was always enthralled with the notion that "every Marine is an Infantryman first." That is surely not the case in the Army, but I know now that there's a benefit to that. If you pack a bunch of Harvard graduates into a room, they'll come up with the stock Harvard answer to any question. If you pack a bunch of grunts into a room, they'll do the same (albeit likely with more vulgarity and resultant injuries). But if you diversify that group of people who serves as the filter which all strategic direction and tactical decision making must pass through, you tend to find that greater decisions come from a greater set of experience. This is the argument for a greater National Guard and Reserve force in the Army, and it's reflected at the highest levels of Army command.

Marines say the Army is soft. Soldiers say the Air Force is soft. Airmen complain that the Navy gets better assignments. Sailors are frustrated by the lack of Kenny Loggins music playing throughout their garrisons. These stereotypes have been in place for decades, and they have nothing to do with one service "catering to generational changes" more than another. Our society changes over time, and organizations with more people will naturally adapt their own culture faster to those changes in an effort to maintain the flow of able bodies needed to fight, sustain, and support our war efforts. And – I'm talking to the Army people on the thread now – if our organization is willing to change to meet its mission objectives, why aren't you? The old "do as I say because I had to when I was your rank" style of running Soldiers was effective in a day and age when a high school diploma was your ticket to a successful career and happy life. Recruits these days come with a wealth of knowledge related to information technology (because it's native to them); many come with more college credits completed than the large majority of our senior-enlisted corps, and all of them know that further education and experience is their path to success. They join to learn, grow, and be mentored by some of our nation's finest leaders. They DO NOT join to be yelled at meaninglessly because "that's the way it is."

A lesson I learned commanding Drill Sergeants was the difference between a great trainer (something every NCO should aspire to be) and a mediocre one. If you can't get through a POI without yelling and cursing at your trainees, it's probably you that needs more training rather than them. If you can't address the junior enlisted population without getting frustrated about "the way they are," it's probably you that needs to consider why the world around you is changing at faster rate than you are. This isn't about being soft. It's not about dropping our standards. It's about being adaptable so that you continue to meet YOUR mission with the resources available.

I'll finish with a simple lesson in communication. If you're on a qualification range, it's not the target's job to catch your bullets. You steady, aim, breath, and squeeze to ensure you hit the target as intended. So why do so many senior leaders talk AT their subordinates and expect them to simply get what they're saying? Did you adjust for cultural windage? Did you take socioeconomic environmental factors into account? Did you even remember to load your magazine with thoughtful messaging designed to drive quality outcomes? As a leader, your words can have more power than bullets (we've all experienced the crushing sensation of a tyrannical leader, right?). Why not give the delivery of those words the same, conscious effort that you give when shooting? You might find that if you aim your communications better, they'll tend to hit the target as intended more often than not.

I believe it all starts with basic training. You act like the way you are taught as a child. Boot camp is the same .The Marine Corp is different because you are their for 12 weeks instead of 8. You are also taught Marine Corp History, so you know the standards you have to live up to. You are also learn respect even it they have to do it the hard way. I went thru Boot camp at Parris Island in 59. The Marines had a system whereas if you were a smart ass they put you in Motivation Plt. You were Kept busy from Dawn to dusk. You were so tired you conformed with the Marine corp way. They also had slow learners Plt. And a Plt. for people over weight. The reason these Plts. worked was the fact you would be their as long as it took you to conform. Now I realize today they cant do that because people wouldn't stand for it. The corp would give you a medical or General Discharge. Back in my time the corp owned your butt until the day your enlistment was up. I joined the army after I got discharged from the Marine corp. I asked to go to Army Basic training to see what it was like but they wouldn't let me. In other words the Army wont raise their basic training to 12 wks. A different type of person enlists in the Marine corp than the army. I could go about many reasons. Every Marine is a Rifleman that's why the crossed rifles are on the stripes. The millenniums were raised different But I think they lack respect Semper Fi.

When you have too many politicians get involved and adding to those crying babies --that's why.

Perhaps you could elaborate a little more. When I was PV2/PFC, it was parade rest for anyone above me, which in short was everyone. My team and squad leaders were SGT or SSG rank who were always addressed by rank (just "Sergeant" instead of Staff Sergeant like USMC) or rank/name. The first time I ever called a NCO by a nickname was 7 months into a 12 month deployment, by then there was plenty of mutual respect. What I noticed in my final Army months was much of it depended on unit. Infantry units have more respect for their combat experienced NCOs than non-infantry units, in general.

This is just from my general experiences. One problem with the Army is not the Army itself it's the civilian leadership using the Army as a testbed for every type of social experiment in society. If a politician wants to get some social agenda pushed through one of the first things they do is force some new regulatons on the Army. Sometimes it's good but many times it doesn't work well in a military environment. The Army was the first to intergrate, even before the country did. The Army was first to bring women into previously all male jobs. Whenever you hear in the news is now doing this or that it means the Army is doing it. There seems to be a hands of policy when it comes to the Marines. It's similar to the difference between Infantry and and Admin clerks. The social ethos is very different. Women and gays were never openly a part of the Infantry, but they have been in the ranks of admin/finance/medic even before the "Don't ask, don't tell". policy. This just some of the reasons that I believe there seems to be a lack of discipline in the Army. The Army reflects what is going on in general society, while the Marines are somewhat insulated from society. Just my opinion.

In my experience the level of discipline depends on the unit and it's atmosphere and command climate.
There were units that were very well disciplined across the board with a long history of superior performance, professionalism and esprit de corps, reading recent articles that level of professionalism lives on in those outfits.
There were others that required a great deal of effort to instill and maintain discipline where you felt like you were trying to turn a battleship with a row boat. They had a long running history of poor performance and underachievement. Again they pop up in articles that highlight training accidents with root causes being failure to enforce basic policy and procedures, misconduct and gross indiscipline.
Again my opinion is that with the long war rather than understanding that good discipline and enforcement of actual standards (not the FM 22- because-I-said-so standards) promotes attention to detail and esprit de corps; folks started feeling sorry for the Soldiers and letting little things slide which in turn degraded basic discipline. I'm also not a fan of the new promotion system and changes to NCOES. The old Resident NCO academies while draconian pains in the buttocks, instilled a sense of pride in accomplishment and drilled home basic leadership techniques and traits . We see the difference nearly daily here on RP with SGTs asking questions about things that used to be drilled home in the old Primary Leadership Development Course that morphed into PLC then to WLC.
My recommendation would be to bring back the resident NCOES courses, ditch the on line learning; resume the train, select, promote model which was effective but more costly.

They just don't make them like they used to. At Bragg we had the highest regard for authority and respected the rank, if not the man. I was told by a major that I don't have to salute the man, just the rank.

Yes, I was a Coast Guard Chief, and I have seen the lack of discipline in the lower rates. It has much to do with the way they are raised at home (i.e., mommy or daddy's best- friend- syndrome). In addition, it has a lot to do with their generation and schools. Examples: This generation was not raised like us. They are a little lost, feeling there is no future for them. So, they want everything now. In addition, schools are very one-sided, the teachers and professors teach only one political view with no debate. I solved my problem with these kids, and it was very simple. First, they are under contract and can't quit, so they have to work for you. Next, UCMJ spells out the consequences of disrespect. Moreover, I as their boss could keep them on the job until it got done. Finally, all it took was a simple talk to bring them around--something mommy or daddy, unfortunately, did not do. One way or another, these young men and women came around with great results. I hope this help; it worked for me.

In this context, are we using "Discipline" to mean "Perform their duties correctly and completely, even if nobody's looking", or are we using it to mean "Sufficiently cow tow and quake before anyone with a higher rank on their shirt"?
Actual leaders know only one of those is a definition of Discipline.
Sadly...we've all known those who aren't quite clear on which one it is.

Though I am not in the service anymore, I saw that starting back in the late 60's. It seems even worse now, even in the private sector. I have seen smart, collage graduates, apply for jobs and think they should start at the top rather than work their way up and I think that is caused by their upbringing and the environment they grew up in.

While not Army, I don't think the situation is much different in any of the services. To me what you describe as lack of discipline is the view of what I refer to as the 'black and white mentality'. If something isn't exactly as a person with that mentality expects it to be the outcome is viewed as a lack of something, in your case discipline. The problem is that in the military there is a huge grey area between those black and white goal posts. If the higher ranking soldiers didn't see an interaction with lower ranking soldiers as lack of respect or discipline then I suspect the scenario occurred in that grey area. The 'black and white mentality' will never grasp that concept, so my advice is suck it up and move on or try to understand that grey areas exist. Heck in my past life even special weapons maintenance procedures had grey areas so to think that military discipline doesn't have them is totally out of the realm of reality.

Many years ago, the DOD had an outside think tank inform them that they needed to become "Kinder and gentler" to their military personnel, something about military discipline and civilian discipline didn't match[thank you Dr. B. Spock] and so it began, the BCT that I'd endured in the mid '70's no longer existed. I'd been informed that "Stress Cards" were issued to new recruits so as to not harm their fragile egos(GAG me please), placing recruits in the "Front Leaning Pest Position" for extended lengths of time for individual transgressions was now unacceptable. Other tools of discipline were removed from the DI's hands and now the mess that exists, created by an outside "expert" with NOooooo real idea of the militaries need for firm discipline and the respect of rank and authority has lead to this...…… To fix it, DOD must think of returning the services induction training to that of maybe??? the 1960's....

I am retired Army for 20 years now and have been dismayed and disappointed with the lack of military bearing and discipline that I see when I visit Army posts these days. Pride and discipline are just not taught anymore in basic training. The Army doesn't even teach its recruits Army history. Without this, there is no pride. No pride leads to lack of discipline. This has been going on for so long that the a lot of the NCOs in today, those that are responsible for teaching the next generation, are soldiers who also missed out on this critical education themselves. You cannot teach something that you, yourself, never learned. I'm not bagging on the Army in any way, just telling it like it is. I was taught pride and trained in discipline when I was in and that carried over into my time on active duty and even into my life afterward. We need to take a step back and return to what we know worked--hard work and discipline.

I dont see it as a discipline issue, i see it as a cultural one. The Army and Marines are not the same animal. The Marines have embraced a culture that is fitted to expeditionary, high intensity combat. The Army seemingly has been used as a test bed for all sorts of initiatives. On top of that the "professionalism" approach that leaders have pushed for several years now has hog tied leaders from demonstrating the same intensity as our USMC counterparts. I can tell you that when I came in during 2001. It was clear the only rights i had were the ones my NCOs allowed me to have. Now soldiers have rights to their dignity that also contribute to a degree of freedom from the chain of command. As many senior NCOs have grown up in this enviornment, their opinions have been shaped by these entitlements. Now rather than it being a discipline issue, it effects the organizational culture of the army and has become systemic.

That said... the Army is not an expeditionary force in the same manner as the Marines. We are not a global QRF. Because of that we are structured and sustained differently, from the team level up. It is not an apples to apples comparison.

I don't believe you can generalize about any of the services. The CO of a unit and the unit staff set the tone for interaction between the ranks.

Before I could comment I would have to know what bases you served on with the Army.

I was a Squad Leader; in the Army. I didn't have a problem with discipline. Capt Michael Wilford

As someone who is published in the field of healthcare and statistical analysis I think your idea for a while paper is an excellent one. I would think that some societal factors are playing into it with regards to millenial culture. This is not a bad thing, but a social dynamic that is affecting all our institutions in many ways. One of the things I'd recommend you'd do is join some social media groups like TIKTOK. I did on a whim, and have seen ALOT of junior enlisted posting videos which air some interesting complaints (11Bs not training enough in the field or their MOS, other units on an FTX showing soldiers using their phones while guarding a checkpoint, and so on. I have some anecdotal information if you'd like to reach out, please do so.

Here is my take and it applies to all services. If you are seeing these issues know this, there is no such thing as bad units or troops, only bad leaders.

I consider myself a very “squared away solider” and i have people of pretty much all ranks that will vouch but sometimes i find myself getting complacent due to the lack of not only “good leadership” but leaders that are what the NCO creed says they should be in general. I’ve whitness soldiers go from HOOAH to shit bag from Lousy leaders that don’t care about their soldiers nor their personal situations, but you do have the occasional knuckle head that was probably doomed from the beginning...

I was enlisted Army eons ago. My son is an NCO now. He was the first to tell me this is becoming a real problem which the Army is struggling to deal with now. He said for some years now, The DIs and others in training commands are severely limited in the corporal and other physical discipline that used to be part of the expected process of building discipline, pride, respect and esprit de core. Instead they switched to verbal ridicule and humiliation for discipline and it destroys what they are trying instill in the trainees, pride in themselves and their unit and respect for the command. When the boots move from basic on to their permanent duty stations there are lot of complaints from the non-coms and commanders about this exact problem - lack of discipline and respect for command. This is a very real issue and no real resolution on the map yet.

It's a combination of things that is force wide, not just the Army. The Marines have less of a problem with it due to their smaller size and cohesion. It's a problem that is a perfect storm born of culture, the military being used as a political test tube and leadership not being properly trained, supervised and brought up through the ranks. The pass it on, it will be ok mentality run amok.

The Army is further hampered by the fact that that there is no one standard and that the standard deviates Unit to Unit, MOS to MOS. Frankly the Army needs to hit that reset button, kick loose a lot of this PC and buddy culture and have ONE standard across the board and get back to being an Army rather than a nanny daycare.

Believe me, when I was USAF, I occasionally saw some similar stuff myself, albeit relatively rarely...honestly, I think all svcs probably have similar problems...I only saw such things a few times, of course, not on any sort of constant basis...I also occasionally saw such stuff in other svcs, as well, though, once again, only very rarely, certainly....

I don't believe there is a single factor, but I'd argue that my Soldiers in every unit I served were no less disciplined than any service member. I believe discipline is dependent on the leader, not the branch.
It would be interesting to see a comparison of NJP by branch, but I doubt it be broken down by article of UCMJ violated.
If there is a difference, other than perceived, I'd lean to the towards the pre-enlistment perception of the recruit, and size of that branch. I'd add the drive of Marine NCOs to maintain that perception/ reputation.
A good source would be those who served in both.

I see it more outside of combat arms. It starts at basic and AIT. It may be the failure of the DS and instructors for not maintaining and upholding the standard. But you are correct. The Army has a discipline problem and it's much more abundant in non-combat arms MOSs.

If you are writing a paper I doubt anything on RP will be valid enough to give you good info. Just a bunch of individual experiences. I'd have to imagine there's so good literature out there in military-oriented databases that can give you some insight into the issue. Hopefully based on a larger population sample.

That is one of the reasons I decided to move on after 10 years. Command was making it impossible for us NCO's to really discipline or utilize corrective training to get the attention of a wayward Joe. Heck, I even got wrote up by my commander for raising my voice to one of my troops. I joined in 1987 and was very impressed by my Drills, their know how, love of their profession, but they were strict disciplinarians. But, I became a better man for it and am a good man today because of it. In the mid 90's, discipline started to slip and we got troops who talked back and such. So, I cut bait and got a good civilian career instead. I know, I had 10 years in, but finished my 20 in the National Guard.

I have said this so many times in the last few years and I will tell my story again. Fort Knox October 1959, 1 AM. The buss from Cleveland pulls up to the reception center and stops. The first voice we heard was someone in a deep authoritative voice telling us to get off the buss and line up. This is as I said took place at 1 AM and by eight the next morning one had his identity taken and the start of someone new. Sgt Arnett and Sgt Sparrow drilled us in self-respect and respect for our country and others. The eight weeks were hard but at the end of Basic training we had great respect for our leaders and the service. I know the training was about the same for all branches of service because in 1961 I went into the Air Force and started that at Lackland AFB in Texas. I had great respect for my country, the military and the leaders I served under. The problem now is a drill instructor almost has to say please to get someone to do something. Anytime you give someone an order the first consideration is will the recipient like the command and does it somehow infringe on their rights. I think everyone should watch the first part of "Full Metal Jacket" and see what they think of that. that is what I went through and I owe my lift to my country and the military way at that time.
I was a Wind child out of Clevelant Ohio and because of the Military I went on the become a Commercial Pilot, an Electrical Engineer and worked in law enforcement. Thank you America and all of the people of the military. Fort Knox to Fort Jackson to Lackland to Amerillo to Moody to Robins AFB.

First off, in my humble opinion, being thru both services and both basic and boot camp. The Army tended to be more compassionate and understanding to whiners and complainers. I went in the Army Basic training in my Jr year of high school on a split option program. I then separated from the USANG into the Marines in my Senior year and did boot camp after I graduated. Wow! What a freakin wake up call. You really learn who is God and you don’t disrespect God, cause God can make your life hell. Not to mention, your fellow recruits can make your life hell just as easy. So, you learn discipline. Now, that being said, the Army Grunts, Rangers, Green Beanies, and the D boys are a different breed and show more Lock and Cock than the other MOS individuals. Let’s not forget the Combat Arms units like Arty and Tankers. They also have the same mentality. Sadly, in the Combat Arms section you have sh@thirds just like the Marines. The Marines tend to deal with the Sh@tbirds faster.

I truly believe that it's happening in all branches. They old saying is that the military is a good indicator of the broad section of our country and how we behave.
Marines do have a stronger more disciplinary regiment. However look back 5, 10 years ago and I think even you will see even the Marines aren't as discipline as they once were.
With the woke culture. the PC movement, and trying to please everyone, the military is going to feel it. I saw in my time from 1970's to 1990's , bar kept getting lowered to appease those who were at fringe of the PC and Woke movement. Now 30 years later is worse then ever.
However you did get it right it does have a lot to do with discipline. I cringe many times when I read post from young soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. One can see, the entitlement that just seems to ooze out the comments on RP.

The lack of discipline is rampant, across our society, along with a lack of respect. We have corrupted everything in life and thrown away guiding principles... Religion, morals and ethics. Our children don't say the pledge of allegiance in schools, Religion is frowned upon and in decline...even our founding documents are looked at as archaic pieces of paper which are supposed to be considered changeable. America is on the decline like the many great states of the past, such as Rome before her. Soon it will be but a memory and what replaces it will only be created by death and bloodshed...Only then will people realize that they squandered and killed a perfect union. Perhaps they will finally learn what our history teachers once taught us..."Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat history.!"

I would say it is because the Government getting involved with the way we run the Army, which is the way we were taught by the ones before us and the ones before them and so on.

My personal opinion is based on my 34 years in the Army (both enlisted time and officer). I came in when the Army was transitioning to the all volunteer Army. During my years I have seen a reduction in respect for NCOs and officers. The Army is catering to the Generational wants of new recruits (both enlisted and officer), this is especially true in the last couple of years, with the new (still not official) PT test and the reins being pulled back on Drill Sgts. When I was in basic training (1977), the main goal was to turn civilians into future soldiers, by pushing the trainees to the limit mentally and physically. The outcome of Basic was having a trainee, who understood the chain of command and was ready for training in their MOS. This is not the case today.

Look at the questions that get posted on here. Young enlisted personal complaining about their rights being abused, making us work Saturday, inspecting my room, telling me how I can dress to travel, the list goes on and on. I don't want to be that cranky old dude, but I mean when I signed the contract, I felt I gave up my free will for the term, today, the kids demand their rights to everything. Don't curse at my boy drill instructor, you might hurt his feelings. Or going from don't ask don't tell, to the military should pay for my sex change. My room mate was gay in 76, we all knew it, we didn't care. He did his job. Now not all units might have been that way, but it was my experience. He was not the first one, nor the first one known, and would not be the last. But now, I am sure you would be concerned about how you talked to a gay soldier, because you could end up having charges brought. Its a different world I guess.

I believe its more of a brotherhood thing and comroderie thing. When i was lower enlisted i showed my respect in situations that called for it but as a whole we were all brothers in arms and that was more of a show than anything. When i was deployed for operation uphold democracy in Haiti im not sure i ever said yes sargeant or anything of that nature. We were more worried about getting shot by aks at that point. I ultimately ended my tour there for last 90 days driving colnels and higher many times driving certain generals and i hope I maintained my discipline with rank then but when bullets were flying i can promise you i didnt say sir or ma’am. Just a though situation dictates alot

I believe that the discipline problems in the Army (and all the military services) is a generational one. When I started on Active Duty in the post Vietnam volunteer Army, there were all kinds of problems with discipline, alcohol, drugs etc. I kept very busy as an MP in Germany dragging wayward soldiers to the station or in some cases they went directly to their 1SG. Continuing my service in the Guard, things vastly improved in the 80's and 90's. Discipline suffered again about 3-5 years after 9/11 as the Army lowered standards for enlistment because of the need for manpower. Waivers for law violations, drug use and taking in non HS graduates. As you reap so shall you sow. The recent generations of recruits also come in with an entitlement mentality. The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. It's not across the board. I agree with the SFC who commented that the more hard charging units like Airborne, Cav, Rangers and outfits such as the USMC have more dedicated soldiers thus less disciplinary problems compared to the general soldier. I've glossed over several topics but you could easily write a book about this issue. Many more factors are at play here involving our society as a whole. Good luck. Hope I've given you some food for thought.

CPT Wilford, I am willing to bet that neither post was Fort Bragg. I visited Bragg once - stopped a very senior SP4 (I was an E-5 SGT),to ask a question, he went to parade rest, shouted his unit motto and answered my request. I was one of those Army linguist made E-5 in 2 years (and stayed E-5 until I got out 6 years later). Different posts, different commands and different focus on Military Courtesy and discipline.

This raises the question, is this lack of discipline and increase in discipline issues reflect the society as a whole? I am curious if this problem is common with other civilizations as they declined. It would be very interesting to see if there are any original accounts from the Roman legions, the Spartans, or other legendary fighting forces documenting a similar issues as the society declined.

I'd love to read the paper when you're done with it. Would you consider posting it here?

Having been Navy and a tour with an Amphibious (FMFPAC), they are numerically smaller than an Army unit. When on a small “warship”... you can fall over. (You don’t piss off people). Having commanded Two Army Basic Training commands and Infantry .... the size of the Army is huge. Go from a Navy/Marine command of hundreds to a Light Division of well over 10,000 and discipline can be a problem... I have personally walked men through their separations and reduced an E-6 to E-3. Also, the lower ranks tend to be just out of High School, and are initiated to alcohol.

Thank you for being honest and admit that we are one fighting force. Personally, I was a smart a__ , and had a Senior Chief and a Gunnery Sergeant “Counsel” me (in a dark passageway). Historically, the Navy and Marines fight each other... but will come together when it matters.... which will be joined by the Army too. Pride runs deep in all branches.

JO3, Buck Sgt., Captain, IN