Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

When i first joined the US Army being a Vietnam Era Veteran i had those combat harden veterans that if you didn't follow the regulations you wear punished. Didn't need the UCMJ. your squad leaders could give you extra training. I turned over many rocks so they wouldn't get moon burnt. Then those types started to ETS. And then regulations started to change, you couldn't do this or that. And privates started to learn that. The same time our things outside started to weakin up. Like when our teachers could discipline their students. Same in the Army. One little thing they would run to the IG.
I had been in for about 12, 13 years i made E-7. Only one E-7 in the company under me so i wasn't the Jr. One had 2 Master Sgt. And a total of 7, E-7s large maintenance company. We had a Change of Command. Our 1SG only had 11days left and he was out. The new COMMANDER said he needed a new 1SG,in a meeting he was holding for all the NCOs. And thats when i really got the concept of ROAD. for those that don't know what that means. Retired on active duty. I raised my hand and became the new 1SG of that unit. And had a CSM that told all of them that they better follow my instructions. It wasn't easy but when your lower enlisted sees things like that it's not good. Plus the other branches had a policy that the Army didn't once and enlisted made Sergeant. They should be transferred. To many still buddies. They can't make the change. Plus the officers coming in are taught. Do not trust your NCOs. Those are just some of the problems. We could sit here all day.

A SMA friend of mine told me once, discipline and respect is not the fault of the Army...The Army is an institution. The fault is solely of the lack of courage and pride of the new NCO's and Officers that believe they are in charge. Corrected them if they fuckup or become disrespectful,l counsel them and send their butt home. it only takes two counseling's to send someone home. it does not take an ART 15 to take rank away from an E2,E3, or E4. the Commander promoted them with a 4187 so the same form can reduce their ass. been there done that many times when I was a 1SG. once you get your point across people start acting right or go home.

1SG (R)
A SMA told me once, not to blame the Army for the lack of discipline or respect. The Army is an institution. The problem are the NCOs that lack the courage to correct or kick someone out if they don't make the cut

After my career I raised two sons that are currently serving. One is in the Army and after boot camp he came home and told me that he had never seen so much UN-checked disrespect in his life. He said the Army NCOs seem to not care at all when disrespected to their faces. I think it's a safe bet to assume that is the main problem. Zero discipline from day 1.

I would say it's because of the E-4 mafia!!! Dude they control everything, seriously, it would be like pissing off your waitress who can cough up a slimy greener and spit it in your food just before bringing it out to you!!! This is why no one messes with them!!! That and they did away with "corporal punishment!!!/:0)", or for not allowing old school punishments by their next in command!!!

I'm a bit old school and may be out of touch, but I'd bet you were not around any STRAC units. If you're writing a paper on military discipline I suggest you spend some time around the combat brigades. During my time and in my units insubordination meant a quick trip to the brig!

the younger generation have the problem,(in their defense,there has been a big mistake in their (upbringing))

They get feed this left-wing liberal BS education all though school life and they think they can bring it with them when they inter the military, and they are shocked to find out it doesn't work in the military, so now they go around pissed because they can't have it their way and the military way.

I agree whole heartedly. The military has standards in black and white that should be upheld. It’s easy to get back too but people are scared and don’t defend themselves withe policies, procedure and regulations.

This is the exact reason I retired. I would have my Soldiers do the job the Army trained them to do in my PLT. Had on several occasions been told NO. When I conducted counseling and remedial action, I would get into trouble with the 1SG for doing my job the Army trained and expected of me in my title. I love the Army and do not regret anything. They need to stop catering to the "I am here, give me my trophy" generation and crack down on these undisciplined brats.

As a brother "Gyrene" my observation of the Army today there appears to be more emphasis on the "Social Justice" equality of the our "liberal" civilian population. There appears to less family "cohesion" and less "religious" foundation in today's youth. In the past; most of our military had "Southern" roots with a religious foundation and a greater respect for authority. Since the "Sixties" the American youth has continued with the tendency to question and challenge authority figures. The Marine Corps has a longer period of time in "basic training or boot camp" which in turn instills greater respect for military discipline and authority.

As a chaplain, I am somewhat in a different situation. Most soldiers, regardless of religion or faith, usually treat the chaplain with the upmost of respect and military bearing. With that said, as a Battalion Chaplain, interacting with the various companies of my battalion, I have witnessed numerous occasions where lower enlisted, E1-E4 SPC, lacked military bearing with NCO's and even lower commissioned officer ranks. I have witnessed time and again where an E2 will come up to our 1SG to speak with him and never think to stand at parade rest. But what's interesting is I find that to be true of soldiers who have been out of the BCT/AIT environment for some time. On the other hand, I have found new soldiers who have just come to us from AIT to still be in that mindset, and will stand at Parade Rest with our NCO's or at attention with me until I put then at ease. And lastly, once an E4 (successfully) comes back from BLC, they seem to get their military bearing back. The two cents' worth from a "dirty boots chaplain" who spends a great deal of time with the Joe's...

The Army has a morale problem because it keeps losing counterinsurgency wars as noted by Army Lt. General Daniel P. Bolger in his 2014 book entitled Why We Lost: A General's inside account of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Luckily in the Cold War the Soviets nuked themselves at Chernobyl so the Army can claim that as a win even though they went up against an opponent who was monumentally stupid.

Ok, Having experience in 3 different military organizations I feel I can answer your question based on my humble opinion and experiences. I was a Marine from 80 to 86, then in the Army from 86 to 92. I went from being a 0341 to a 52D. It seemed that the command, (E-5 and above) were more of friend, listen to you, try to please you, give you chance after chance. I saw behavior in the Army that would have had heads on the platter if they were Marines. Again, not ALL of the Army was that way. The combat arms segment were much hard core, but, from my experience the non combat arms were more in the touchy feel good sense. I believe, in my humble opinion, from what I experienced was a “ familiarity breeds contempt “ atmosphere. I never went out with my NCOs drinking with them, nor my officers. There was also the female issue. In the Corp, not so much interaction with WMs as I was interacting with female soldiers more often. So, there seemed to be a softer side. Again, I was in a non combat arms atmosphere, so it was different. Hope that helps

BASH ME if you want but I see it as a failure in the early 90's when the big draw down happened and had to rely on other resources to Maintain a fighting force. JMTC

The answer is simple; the Army promotes bad behavior, those under those being promoted learn by example. Mix in the lazy DOD civilians that can’t be fired and it’s a mix of nasty soup.

Best experience of my life, other than 5 children, 8 grands, 3 great grands. Draft driven military between Korea and Viet Nam. Airborne Combat Engineers part of soon to leave 11th Airborne, 2 years 24th Infantry. Top cadre WW2 and Korea vets. First Sgt jumped into Normandy, did Bastogne, jumped in north Korea. First issue of Military Code of Conduct. 12 - 15 years since WW2 Many family, friends, community combat vets. Numerous Gold Stars in small home town. Active VFW till they all died off.

You just did NOT give no shit to any NCO. First Sarge let it be known it was "HIS" Company. If you disagreed, he'd discuss it with you behind the motor pool at 6:00. I would have followed him anywhere.

I've seen discipline falter in my own family and society. In some ways I agree but there has to be a limit. When was the last time "We the People" had to make a sacrifice for the good of us all? Less than 5% have had military experience. Bring back the draft ! Or something similar.

I think it's partly caused by too much political correctness as well as a general feeling nowadays of no one has the right to tell me what to do or say. I'd say that would comes with lax rules and policies that have been put into affect to cow-tow to groups who feel they deserve special treatment because of race, creed, and color. The day when you saw uniformity in the Armed Forces is gone and it's not just in the Army.

It's generational. I saw the same thing happening in the Navy during the 90s and the 00s. Nothing like getting your a$$ reamed in front of a 3rd Class by your Chief for directing that petty officer to lead by example.

Out could be due to the fact that each generation is degrading when it comes to certain values. Also could be an issue with recruitment standards. On college I learned about the labor pool, you can only hire what's available. Good luck with your paper.

Because the Army* appears to have a discipline issue at the highest officer ranks.
*Sadly, not limited to Army, as made clear by the former SecNav and current leakers.
DISCLAIMER: My youngest son is the first officer in the family since the Civil War, so I'm a bit biased.

Catering to the New generation of military is a big mistake.
Starting with basic and advanced training discipline and respect for rank need to be maintained. Leaders need to not be afraid to put their subordinates inline when someone breaks the rules or shows disrespect to their leadership.
I am going to put this issue on the shoulders of leadership. Stop treating your troops as equals. You are the leader so lead.

It's not the lower ranking service members who are the problem it's the lack of leadership.

It's a question of training. The training that the liberal P{residents like Bill Clinton instituted is causing all sorts of troubles. From discipline in the lower ranks to depression, PTSD and suicide in returning servicemen.
when my father went through basic in 1942, a Drill Instructor could beat the stuffing out of you. When I went through basic in 1981, the Drill Instructors couldn't lay a hand on you but could scream obscenities in your face and tap you with the leading edge of their hat (I have a permanent crease across my forehead, lol). Now they can't even yell at a raw recruit because it causes "stress". STRESS?!? I've also been hearing about something that's called "stress cards" being handed out to recruits in basic, but haven't gotten around to finding out if it's true or not. I hope not. We're doomed as it is, what with substandard training and a President who pulls us "out of harms way" because he doesn't want us getting hurt.

The problem is the general lack of character among young people these days. I was raised with the Judeo-Christian ethic in place. We respected teachers, cops, pastors, and soldiers. We knew our duty was to serve our country. Now, after two generations of lazy, undisciplined parents and socialist teachers, young people have no such ideals. Situational reality, me-first-and-always attitudes, and "America ain't so great" indoctrination are often the core principles of today's youth (up to age 35 or so). The solution is not simple. President Trump, despite his personal character flaws, is leading the way to a restoration of the values our Founding Fathers put in place. Diligence, rigid consistency in enforcement of standards, and a strategy of building pride in unit and nation are appropriate means to return discipline to the military.

It all starts at home. If these children didn't learn to discipline themselves with parental guidance, this is going to show rather rapidly. There are those who can adjust to military expectations and those who will not. They need to be culled a.s.a.p.

My son served as a medic with the Army. My second hand observation seemed to demonstrate a lack of jr NCO leadership. Specialists with a clear lack of leadership skill were prevalent.
My Son, contributed to the issue. He joined somewhat older than average, 20ish, and resented kids as leaders.
Post Deployment, time, and promotion improved the situation but the Army lost a good soldier after 1 term.

Millennials rule and there’s no discipline anymore in today’s army I’m old-school infantry guy and I still know guys that was in the service with that say today’s army is definitely not the army in so deal with it

When you have a LTC deciding whether or not their commander in chief is engaged in an inappropriate phone conversation with another worlds leader then you have a fucking problem. That is how Stalin ran Russia and his military.

NCO's need to start putting foot to asses. That's one thing I never tolerated, disrespect.

Well I was Air Force and Army used to be "really" rank conscious. I got out in 2008. I appreciate structure and I always appreciated being enlisted! NO BASHING, just saying I could talk to an officer easier. That said. I hear that there maybe a "pack mentality" with millennial's hope that is not the case. When I was in it was everyone for themselves.(sounds bad but good) I never thought to gather others and work against our leader or just someone of higher rank. I was busy keeping my shit together :)

I have been out of the army since 1994. I was in the navy from 1997-2000. So, I don't have recent direct contact with the military. But, it is my experience that young people are the same as they ever were. My generation which invented HIPPIES for GOD'S sakes HIPPIES! were the worst generation ever.

A cultural change from discipline to political correctness has eroded respect for military tradition in some branches. Marines will not tolerate such. That is why they can do more with less. Unquestioned authority engenders obedience and effective command.

I'm not sure if this is a "military" problem. I see it as a generational problem. People are growing up with the idea that they are always right and no one has the right to tell them otherwise. They have lost the concept of working for something. They expect it to be handed to them because they "deserve" it. This carries over into the military. When they join, they come with the attitude "just because you're a First doesn't give you the right to tell me what to do.". Society has to change first, then everything will follow. And yes, as you can probably tell from my response, I've been out a while (Oct '71).

It's because of civilian politicians constantly using the Army as their favorite place to do social experimentation. The Army, to its credit, was the first to racially integrate. I believe they are also the first to open most MOSs to females. After that, it seems that it seems like discipline degraded because you couldn't say certain things because it hurts someone's feelings or violated their civil rights. I remember having the race card thrown at me several times when I was just doing normal discipline without regard to a person's color. I remember when we were told we could not use certain cadence calls will marching troops if they had profanity or were sexist. Every cadence that I learned as a private fell into that category. When I became a Drill Sergeant we were told that the new policy required cadences that were gender-neutral, not sexist, not violent and not profane. No more "Yellow Bird" or "I saw an old lady" or "I wish all the ladies" Then we had a Brigade Commander that would get on the bus with the new recruits coming from the Reception station, just to catch us verbally abusing the new troops. We also couldn't rush them through chow like they did when I was a recruit. Some of the new requirements made a little sense, but most of it tied our hands on the discipline level and the troops knew it. Today's society has brought this into the Army. Kids that smart off at their parents and teachers and are not afraid of the consequences and come into the Army with the same attitude make it really hard to instill a respect for authority. They are really quick to yell I'm going to the IG because you hurt my feelings. It all goes to crap from there.

More senior enlisted and the vast majority of junior officers are from the same generation as the enlisted. Sure, in the case of the NCOs they been in for a while but, seeing as how they know and understand the nuances of the what and why for these new soldier’s are less likely to use disciplinary techniques that instill the military bearing, etiquette and discipline of old.

Sadly, this can only get worse before it can get better.

In 1985, the US Army in its infinite wisdom chose to eliminate Sp5 and Sp6 ranks, thereby thrusting thousands of people into positions of "rank" and "authority" that they were neither mentally capable of handling by natural ability nor mentally prepared for handling by military training. These were not bad people, they were skilled workers who were extremely capable of performing their MOS. I served in the mid to late 80's and early 90's and watching some these people, cry out, "I'm a sergeant, I work for a living..." only to follow up with "I don't work for a living, I get paid to supervise only." You would quickly lose respect for these types of half-wits. I firmly believed that everyone in the Army deserved every penny possible, but not everyone should have been a leader whether the driver was a commissioned officer or a non-commissioned officer (NCOs). Officers were rare and NCOs should have been a rarity in any unit. The Army had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. To make matters worse, Promotions points stayed at 999 for many MOSs, stagnant NCOs would take up a secondary MOSs in an effort to get their next rank. So many would come into our unit (tractor-trailer unit in central Germany) absolutely skilless, and put people in danger through acts of wrecklessness, but at least they could puff up their chest and say, "I'm a sergeant, I'm a leader of MEN..." as if that excused their incompetence. These types of things led to many discipline problems that have continued to this day.

IMHO, a large part of the overall discipline problem in society as well as the military today can be traced back to the decision to remove prayer from schools. Growing up in that era I was able to observe kids who did not attend regular church services have an awareness of personal accountability. That accountability has largely gone away as the result of Dr. Spock has been the loosening of discipline in both the home and schools. Between Dr. Spock and the loss of prayer in schools there was a loss of the moral compass, having a better understanding of right and wrong, and thus respect for others has lowered...especially those in authority positions. As I remember, a few years ago AF basic trainees were given some sort of "timeout" system that allowed them to avoid being yelled at and actually punished. The discipline problem in the military is due to the lack of discipline outside and now trying to instill a foreign concept into minds that don't want to accept it. My rant, sorry.

I apologize for the length of this and if it seems to jump around a lot. I haven't slept and I have class in a few hours.

I will say that this issue is not solely limited to the Army. After I got back from my deployment, almost all of my shop had turned over and it was almost completely new Marines. Before I got out I was made the platoon sergeant for my shop and I noticed a prevalent trend amongst the younger Marines. They were a lot faster to make accusations of hazing or that you are targeting them if you attempt to discipline them in any way, shape, or form. If they gave attitude and the next day for PT you ran a particularly rough session, it was "hazing", as was making them stay past 1700 for inventory. The issue that I had was that the SNCOS would go to the defense of the junior Marines, rather than backing the NCOs to enforce discipline. I don't know what happened while I was gone, but when I was a Junior Marine, I would have *NEVER* mouthed off to an NCO, they didn't do it to me so much as they did it to my Corporals.

This inconsistency and crumbling of the chain of command created even more problems, it got bad enough at one point that the company 1stSgt had to have a separate sitdown with the Junior Marines, the NCOs, and the SNCOs (SSgts and GySgt), and basically told the Juniors that not everything under the sun was hazing, and told the SNCOs to allow the NCOs to do their job and stop letting the Junior Marines jump the chain of command.

One thing that I found worked was that instead of any sort of traditional verbal adjustments, or extra work, I was having to rely on formal counselings more, and also a bit of extra scrutiny on field day. This allowed me to keep a signed paper trail on any misconduct, and it covered my ass if any accusations were made towards me. After the talk with the 1stSgt, I also made it a point to pull up the UCMJ and outline many of the articles that they could be charged with if their behavior did not change.

I also made it a point to never be in a counseling one on one with a female junior Marine, I always made it a point to grab one of the female Sergeants to act as a witness. I think in the 2 years that I was an NCO, I only had to raise my voice twice, so that they knew that If I was at that point, things were going to be very bad for them very fast.

It's a changing Corps and leadership needs to stop trying to be friends with the Juniors and start being leaders again.

Once standards were lowered to allow women in the military the standards could only go down

Personally, I think it's do with American society moving away from being unquestioning of authority. Young people see politicians on both sides acting like complete and utter fools, and as such, are maybe a little less likely to buy the whole indoctrination spiel the Army lays on them in the early days.
They see a few wars, and absolutely nothing to show for them, except a few very rich white men, and a bunch of nutty conspiracy theories. Why should they have any confidence in their leaders? It's not like their leaders are proving themselves capable in any way, shape, or form.

Add to that, the sheer stupid lengths that many military leaders will go to in order to exercise authority. Case in point? Another discussion that has me all kinds of twisted, where a female is told by her Platoon Sergeant through her squad leader that she needs to wear a bra when OFF DUTY. And the vast majority of responding officers and NCOs in full support of the leader. This. THIS is one of the major reasons I could see lower enlisted joining the Army, and coming to the realization that they might just be surrounded by fools.

Now.. I am not saying the officers and NCOs ARE fools. Just indoctrinated into a HOOOOORAHHHHHHH!!-type mentality that just doesn't play with an entire generation of enlistees who are seeing America fall apart around them.

This problem is not unique to the army it is rampant in all parts of society. The liberal brainwashing of our youth has come home to roost the standards have been lowered across the board. everyone gets a participation trophy and no one can be disciplined for anything. We cant hurt feelings by giving grades in school or keeping score in sport events. This society in general is seing the bad effects of this in every phase of life. In schools the kids disrespect the teachers and even physically attack them. It was shown in Florida the sheriff was told by the politicians not to arrest kids on high schools because they wanted to try to show a reduction in crime rates under thier leadership. well the result was the parkland shooting where the shooter had double digit police complaints against him but never charged on any . But they were quick to blame guns for the problem. In New York city this summer the police had water and buckets thrown on them and were afraid to make arrests because the liberal mayor would not stand up for them and feared they would lose their jobs. In Washington state the radical Antifia wear masks while they protest and destroy property and attack conservative reporters who try to show their violent unlawful ways and they are defended by the liberal mayors and the police are told to stand down and let them brake the law because they are on the side of the party in power. The sanctuary state and city people demonize ice and do not allow the police to help them which makes it unsafe for everyone. Liberal colleges do not allow conservative speakers on campus and allow violent protests against them and the police stand by and watch letting the damage and injury's go unchecked. I can site many more examples. The really sad part is the main street media is run by them so you never hear of most of these problems . I believe this is part of the problem that allowed us to get to this braking point.

It’s not just the Army the Navy and Air Force has the same problems.
The problem stems from a lack of leadership from above and enforcement of PC policies, If a junior has a conflict with a senior all he has to do is accuse the senior of sexual misconduct and the senior reputation is destroyed (guilty until proven innocence).

Inability to uphold the standard. Or just a blatant disregard for it.

I'm concerned that changes in discipline may be the influence of both politics and PC Issues. Having served and currently my son serving the differences in discipline are blatantly apparent. I don't know the answer yet I'd tend to question if it were an issue of both society and potential repercussions on leadership, at every level, if PC concerns are the destructively stifling.

I was stationed at a Naval Hospital as a junior enlisted in the 70;s and knew sailors who would avoid certain walkways to reduce required saluting (and junior officers who would frequent certain routes to garner respect). In the early 80's as a Marine Artillery Officer when the Regiment was shooting at Ft. Bragg, I went with a couple of other LT's to clothing sales. We were not saluted by numerous SPC's and below despite being obviously commissioned (USMC wore shiny bars on lapels). In the 90's + in the Army, it would depend on where I was regarding respect of rank.
I think that it is about Command Climate. In the Mariines the respect of rank comes all the way down the ladder by culture. In the Army I think that although it is cultural priority, it tends to be more locally enforced by command and Staff NCO's. I believe the expectations are lowered from the beginning when it is more a question of numbers rather than quality.
On the other hand, in the elite units I have been associated or familiarized with in the Army (e.g. SF, Rangers, etc.), while the trappings of respect are less obvious, the cultural exhibitions are there (at least within the organizations; somewhat less for an outsider).

There are a lot of discipline issue in the Army, one that I see is soldiers walk past infractions all the time some of this me be they are scared to say anything or they too do not know the reg. I also see people referring to pay grades and not ranks. As leaders we have to enforce these standards, the Army makes it easy there is a manual for everything.

It's because soldiers have cried so much to thier parents, and thier parents went and cried to thier congress members and that lead to NCOs getting told that we had to back off.

As I look back, to my basic training, the biggest take away was to not do anything to get my buddies killed. This brought unit and mission cohesion. It also brought the idea of self sacrifice for others and the greater good. It was transforming.

Sir, I believe it starts in BCT. Prior to retiring I worked in a recruiting command and I had many soldiers return saying how lax it was, and many even stated how disappointing it was due to lack of discipline and challenge. There is also the issue with retention, they feel that if they are too harsh, they will not make retention goals which then get reflected on commander OERs, and other evaluation factors. Another factor is, with retention issues in certain MOSes there are some kids getting promoted way too fast. So as younger "more hip" young NCO's they don't hold their buddies (PFCs - Spec 4's) to a standard, either because they want to be friends more than they do a leader, or they simply don't know how to lead. Lastly, the command has to support the actions of the NCO, and this includes the Platoon Sgt. and Platoon Leader. When a soldier is a discipline problem, I believe that the squad/team leader also needs to be counseled as to why his/her soldier is lacking said discipline.

Lack of Respect, Good Order and Discipline go hand in hand with a lack of proper effective leadership. A challenge for sure in the more touchy feely stress card era of our modern military. Today's leaders more than likely have their hands tied and so the "troops" are able to get away with a lot more then perhaps during times past. Morale issues from enduring multiple deployments, entitlement running amok, political correctness, lack of proper accountability for ones actions are just some of the many issues that cause this general lack of respect and discipline you speak of. Great Post Michael. I've not spent much time on here but when I received notice of this discussion in my email I had to come check it out. BZ and All The Best with your paper!

Because we can't all be infantry.

It's the unit. I was in the Infantry and a Combat Engineer and believe me, we didn't have issues like that! As an NCO , we handled business. What you are seeing are the hobbits, pogues, rear echelon units. Non combat units young Capt. I began my service in 1985, also an Army brat, dad was 30 yr MSG, Vietnam veteran, I'm an old school NCO.

Rank, no rank. If I ever had a little shit disrespect me I would tear him a new ass, regulations be damned. I saw NCOs get disrespected back in the 80s because they shouldn't have been an NCO in the first place. I was an E-6 and lived in the barracks with the soldiers for several tours. They knew who they could push and I wasn't one of them. When I was in my room whether it was weekend or not it was "all quiet on the western front." I wasn't the only one though. There were many NCOs I knew that wouldn't take no shit. If I were in the Army today I would probably be brought up on assault charges my first day…….but I wouldn't be disrespected.

Not sure if anyone else experienced this issue but in in recent years during my second time in the Army, I served as a Platoon Sergeant for a while and when assigning daily tasks such as PMCS at the motor pool or other details that would come up, I found that a lot of soldiers would actually pull out the race card and accuse the high ups of singling out certain individuals out because of their race. I personally took offence to this as tried to assign tasks to my soldiers as I saw they could actually accomplish the mission in a timely manner with minimal supervision. When it came to discipline it was the same way. there was always that race card coming into play.

In my experience, it has a lot to do with the quality of the individuals we are selecting to serve in our military. MANY bad choices were forced onto drill sergeants and first units when I came through in the beginning. Having to backfill the servicemembers that left prior to OEF and OIF quickly without properly vetting or training our troops didn't help matters, either. Out of nearly 300 recruits who came through with me in 2000, more than 60% had criminal records. Over half of THAT population had felonies! And that's just one problem.

17 Marines arrested for human trafficking and you don’t have this type of issue. Better wake up Captain.

Is it an issue of discipline, or a matter of observed customs and courtesies? Are they failing to perform their assigned tasks, or just not locking up in casual conversation?

I never felt respected because a soldier stood at parade rest and adressed me by title at the beginning and end of every sentence. Respect was when they spoke to me candidly, heeded my counsel, and when appropriate, carried out my orders.

VOLAR was a problem, down grading was, Untrained soldiers replacing trained Solders after the down grade, auto promotions, on and on. We started injecting the Army with ill trained Officers and NCO'S at all levels. Now today well try not to let this interfere with my Civilian Job. JMT

Is this true about all MOS-es ? I don't see how the Infantry can lack discipline and be combat functional !

TOP Furr is correct. From what I have seen (besides men holding hands in uniform; I guess that's alright but don't get caught kissing a female if you are a male; there's rules about that undermining discipline) . I don't care who you plank off hours but keep the same standard. That's the crux. A lack of stressors on troops from the 1st day is probably the genesis of the problem EX: The last mission or operation I was in; in Africa. Our JSOTF had been up 36 hours to include crew time which was busted somewhere that day; nobody remembers. it was during the Rwandan disaster. We were in the field SCIF when an airman walked in from the JTF and wanted to see me as I was the JSOTF J4. I told him that I would get with him in a few (as I was busy with 5 senior NONCOMS and POs and the OPSO) and please leave the SCIF. The guard literally fell out at his seat so he walked in. The airman said he wanted to talk now and I politely told him to get the fuck out or he would be arrested by the SPs. He came back a few minutes later with a sorry assed AF provider. Our JSOTF senior enlisted was a STS type, E-8. Former 24 STS type. bad ass. The provider wanted to know who I was and he began a soliloquy of why I was "mean" to his E2 by saying "FUCK". The Ranger commo guy and Senior MSG XXXX pulled me off the couple. They never came by the JSOTF but they sent written messages. But the point is WTF is E2 "Smedley" lack of a tough skin because I said the word FUCK? BTW who is he? This was serious business and this kid wanted to see me tight then and there. WTF?

reading all the responses reminds me of the six blind men of indonesia .The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.
so each man was part right, but blind to the whole truth. :-) USMC 1961 1965

Anecdotal information should not be used as fact in developing a White Paper on any subject. Just saying...

This is said countless of times through different generations, one constantly trying to out brag the one after the next. There’s nothing stopping a PV2 who doesn’t care anymore to tell their 1SG to “Shut up”, that’s not a generation thing that’s a individual thing, always has been. Senior leaders see what they want to see, they see the one soldier not going to parade rest for the 1SG, but not the group of junior enlisted who’s ready to do anything in the world their NCOs tell them to make an impression and be a great group of Soldiers. The Army is huge, you’re going to see a lot more discipline issues then you would in the Marines, nothing a good nco can fix.

When I was a Buck SGT. I had one of my Pvt's tell me I didn't have enough rank to tell him what to do. When I got thru with him, he had no doubt that I did indeed have enough rank.

Because I've been out so long (retired in 2002), I can't really comment intelligently about army discipline now, but I can say this is not the first time and probably not the last time the army has had to and will have to go thru this cycle. During and after the Vietnam War the army had serious discipline problems including near mutiny in isolated incidents.

Because you’re dismissing them as ‘lower enlisted’ instead of mentoring them as ‘junior enlisted’

Honestly I wouldn’t use the “army” as a whole soldier discipline has always been maintained at a nco level Iv seen soldiers with great discipline and some without any and it’s been directly related to first line supervisors and their interactions by getting comfortable with their soldiers. It’s a lifestyle that’s what the army is it is not a job it’s a life style change and people seem to want to be liked by their own soldiers which they don’t go about it the proper way and leave room for that indiscipline. If I as a Sgt ever saw my soldier not go to parade rest talking to any NCO or attention to any officer then I correct them on the spot and make sure to fix it if my soldier ever felt it was ok to tell a 1sg he isn’t better then him because if his rank then I failed somewhere but I’d be damn sure to fix it quick. My soldiers discipline and any soldier 1-4 discipline is directly related to how they are trained and taught yea you have that one soldier. Who does what he wants well that’s easy to fix process him out of the military if he can’t play by our rules

At a previous duty station a general asked the ORSA team to answer this exact question. After collecting the data and running a regressive analysis on it, it wasn’t rank that was the defining predictor. It was age and to some degree, whether or not you lived in your own between Mom’s house and the Army. But it was an interesting age relationship because the curve dips down for folks around 25 to 35, but then cycles up so there is some lack of discipline uptick in higher ages. A lot of that was due to the SIR data. Lots of domestic spouse on spouse issues with the higher ages that resulted in disciplinary action. There is also a lot of variance between MOSs suggesting there is some leadership differences among our various job branches or our branches tend to attract different types of people.

I have been out for a few years now but I would think it is not any worse now then ever before. I believe a lot of kids join the military for a variety of reasons and some of them become disenchanted quickly and fall back to their undisciplined ways.

The major problem is guys are getting promoted at a rapid pace some guys still wet behind the ears in the Army have not even deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan and they already Ssg

Just like you said, it’s not only the jr. enlisted. Unfortunately it’s not new.
Back in the early 90’s, my company had a SSG. Once he got in his car (while still in BDU’s). He would remove his cover & put on a Malcom X hat.
When his superiors would try & correct him. He would play the race card, even on the Top who was Hispanic.
So nothing got resolved.

It is adaptation to today's culture. Everyone is so easily offended and we don't want that. AR 350-6 is Trainee Leadership, and the trainee has many more rights under it than someone who has never been in TRADOC could ever understand. And the Privates are briefed on it from day one at the Reception Station. Some of it is good, some not. They cancelled end of course testing for Basic, give out a participation trophy patch in a "patching ceremony" because the Privates don't have combat patches and are jealous. What Division Commander was it that was going to forbid senior personnel from wearing combat patches because the Privates hadnt' earned one?