Posted on Sep 13, 2016
LTJG Ansi Officer
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If a fresh 2LT/ENS ordered an E9 to attention because of a disagreement, would the E9 have to comply? What would possibly happen?
Posted in these groups: Army2lt 2LTSgm SGMArmy usa or 09b.svg CSM
Edited 9 y ago
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CPO Randy Francis
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I once had a newly promoted CPO arrive at my command where I was the Senior CPO. Upon his arrival he informed the OIC (an O-5) and me that he has just received orders that he is going to be commissioned as an LDO. The day after his commissioning ceremony he arrives in the office and says to me, "Chief, you're in my desk." Out of the corner of my eye I see the Cdr look down at his computer, refusing to acknowledge what he knew was about to happen. My GMC immediately told my enlisted sailors to go find something to do. I then informed the new Ensign that I, not him, ran the office and I decided work stations, not him. I informed him that his work station was the table in front of my desk and that I would let him know when Liberty began. I saw him look at the CDR who refused to even look up at him at which point he sat at the table in front of me. I thought my GMC was going to explode with laughter. At the end of the day I told the Ensign that Liberty had begun and he could leave. Never had any more problems with that Ensign.
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LTJG Ansi Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
9 y
That is a great share, CPO Randy Francis. I think one of the hardest things for new Officers to understand is their relationship with the Chief.
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CPT Executive Officer
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9 y
That's great.
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PO3 Butch Cotterell
PO3 Butch Cotterell
9 y
That is great! In the 4 years I was in I actually witnessed our chief go nose to nose with an LDO Lt. Both of them yelling at each other about writing me up. Chief walked back through the hatch and looked at me and said "that's settled so don't fuck up again" and I never did.
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COL John Hudson
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From the IG Desk: "YES," in answer to the original question. However. I was raised in the Air Force and my father was a Chief Master Sergeant E-9. My brother retired from the Navy as a Master Chief Petty Officer, E-9, and I have held Enlisted, Warrant, and Commissioned rank during my 30-year Army career. The best 'under the table' experiential advice I can offer to anyone out there in ALL branches of our military is there are two positions you don't screw around with: 1) A Senior NCO and 2) A Senior Warrant Officer. These two experts sit with General rank Officers, "run" the military, and one messes them over at risk to one's own backside regardless of who you are.
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SGT Chris Whidden
SGT Chris Whidden
9 y
Don't forget the ever powerful E-4s as another position to watch out for....
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Lt Col Aircraft Maintenance
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Well said Colonel. The best piece of advice I ever recieved was from a retired USAF Lt Col (my uncle), just prior to my commissioning. He told me "You're going tobe a 2LT and you don't know sh*t. Treat everyone with respect and let your NCOs teach you what they need you to know. Build a good relationship with your Chief and remember how much experience he has." That advice kept me humble and out of trouble with my SNCOs for years.
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MCPO John Kerr
MCPO John Kerr
9 y
Here, here!
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SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
9 y
SGT Chris Whidden - YES! Especially the E-4s in positions that have more clout than is reflected by their rank. I had to laugh about an NCO that insisted he was best buds because he was a phone call away from a particular SGM, who just so happened to have me as the lowly enlisted sit in his hot-seat weekly to discuss actions pertaining to whatever his pet peeve was for the week. I became his star model at the promotion board and he bragged on me as I was entering the room (but no pressure soldier). One quick chat with the boss over both of us and that NCO was no longer in that position. He was later exposed as not having earned everything he claimed and went down to E-1 at the USDB.
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CPT Physical Therapist
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I actually had this exact conversation with some of my classmates today. I'm the lone prior enlisted butterbur in my course and I'm doing my best to impart some of my limited wisdom on them that I've acquired over the past decade or so of service. I told them that you have to have tact in these situations. Not only does that CSM probably have an office next door to a flag officer, but they probably also play golf and drink beers together on the weekend. Getting on a CSM's bad side (and consequently your BN or BDE commander's bad side) from the get go is a not a good way to start a career.
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CPT Physical Therapist
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9 y
Well said. I think it's also important to remember that the junior enlisted that you were rude to might be the finance clerk that would potentially help you with pay issues or something along those lines. You piss them off and your pay inquiry might accidentally end up in the shredder. I actually served under a JO who had a bad habit of treating junior enlisted like crap all over post. He not only sullied his name, but gave our entire unit a bad name. It took a lot of damage control (and a few bottles of Jack, Crown Royal, etc) to smooth over tensions around base. My enlisted/NCO roots are deep and I don't intend on ever forgetting where I came from, regardless of how much shiny stuff is on my chest. I believe all of my fellow service members are professionals regardless of rank and I will treat them with respect until they prove otherwise.
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
9 y
There are exceptions to every rule, LTJG (Join to see), including the need to respect experience. I still cringe when I recall listening (as a freshly promoted corporal) to a master sergeant talking about how the time spent on marksmanship was wasted time in his opinion, because he never once aimed his rifle during a firefight. He proudly claimed to always keep his face in the dirt and his M16 on full-auto as he sprayed bullets in the general direction of the enemy.
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SFC Alfred Galloway
SFC Alfred Galloway
9 y
CPT (Join to see) - don't ever mess with a solider's pay, food' or family... three rules I learned very quickly
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LTC Military Police
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Humility is a good thing. There's a big gulf between confidence and arrogance.
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
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As an E9, I would ask this young officer if he or she were very certain they wanted me to comply with this order. If they were certain, I would comply but there would be some follow-on conversations about respect with the Battalion Commander that would probably not be as civil as my current comments to the Lieutenant. On the other hand, if they decided it might be more prudent to rescind the order, we could retreat to my office to have a conversation about respect that would be part of an ongoing mentoring relationship between us to help him or her grow in their career, related to working with NCOs. Then we would proceed based on the Lieutenant's decision at that point. I would go to attention, if that's the choice he or she made. I swore an oath to follow the orders of the officers appointed over me.
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LTJG Ansi Officer
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Excellent response, SGM (Join to see).
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
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MSG Michael Nelson
MSG Michael Nelson
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MSG Michael Nelson (Retired)
That was an excellent response, SGM Dr. David H.
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PO2 Marty Sharpe
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I would think the E9 would come to attention as he should. But the Ensign or 2ndLt is going to be miserable for a long time to come.
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PO2 Marty Sharpe
PO2 Marty Sharpe
9 y
In my time as a petty officer just about the most irritating thing that came around was a boot Ensign. One day they asked you how to do something. The next day they were telling you how to do it. In almost the same words you used.
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SFC Terry Murphy
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Had to save a West Point Cadet that was assigned to my company during his summer drill stuff. This was in the 80s and he tried to lock up my Platoon Sergeant who was a former hand to hand instructor for Ranger school. his feet were about six inches off the ground when we pulled the PSG of him.
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CPT Infantry Officer
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That is false according to Army Command Doctrine. They rank between enlisted and warrants.
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SFC Geospatial Engineer
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Had a Cadet stop me one time and ask if I was going to salute him. I asked him if he had lost his gd mind. He tried to push the issue, but I just told him to get out of my face, I wasn't in the mood to deal with him.
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COL Infantry Officer
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Maybe regulation, but certainly not reality. As you mentioned, a cadet has no authority. Rank without authority becomes just a pay grade.
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SGT Troy Lyons
SGT Troy Lyons
9 y
I spent 2 years with the 2nd Aviation Detachment, the USMA flight detachment. We interacted with Cadets, Cadidiots in private, and all active duty members, bot officer and enlisted, were always treated with respect and dignity by the Cadets and vise versa. We did not salute the Cadets.
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SGM Erik Marquez
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I would and did stand at attention for a 2LT.

But two points
1: just because you can does not mean you should.
2: your actions have second and third order ramifications.

I got locked up by an AF Cpt... I stood and took the beratment.
After I went back to doing my job.
a GO that I worked for then came over asked if i needed anything?
I said no sir I'm good

The GO then asked the AF Cpt if he could have a word with her outside

She never returned to the building and her work space was boxed up by a fellow worker.
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LTC Military Police
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LTC Carlos Llarena
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When I became a Bn Co, I had an officers call. My CSM was there. I pointed to him and said, "Gentlemen, meet my alter ego. He goes where he wants, does what he wants understanding he represents me. He doesn't need your permission or have to report to you. He has my permission. Out of courtesy he may brief you on what he saw but it's not required unless he discovered a breach in rules, regulation or SOP. Any questions"? CSM looked at me with a slight grin as if to say, "All Right!!!"
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MCPO John Kerr
MCPO John Kerr
9 y
I am sure you had the respect you deserve from all those under your command!
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CSM Andrew Perrault
CSM Andrew Perrault
>1 y
A very smart man having said that, BN CO's and his CSM have got to have each other's back.....and it sets the tone for the next two years I'm sure you had a successful command
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CPL Earl Kochis
CPL Earl Kochis
5 y
You remind me of my LTC and CSM Sir. If a 2lt would have ever done that to my CSM they would have learned exactly why the LTC’s last name was Canon. I will never forget the relationship those two had. The blind respect taught me that the LTC knew without the CSM his wheel was broken.
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COL Lee Flemming
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Edited 9 y ago
Professionals...I absolutely believe the E9 would comply, as he should - but...I also unequivocally know that after the fact the officer would run the eventual gambit of senior officers telling the 2LT, 1LT, CPT, MAJ....that it probably was not a good idea and there are other ways. I have been a commissioned officer for 25 years and have never ordered anyone to attention!!!
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MGySgt James Forward
MGySgt James Forward
9 y
Only time I got ordered to attention was to get promoted, receive an award and an occasional Article 15... Most Jr Officer's 1st Lt-Capt in my last command were briefed on how to handle the MGySgt's in the Command Element: Tactfully and with respect as they control your future, you will learn more from them about leadership then you learned in any school. They like coffee, lot's of coffee....Semper Fi.
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TSgt Michael Brown
TSgt Michael Brown
9 y
Because you are probably one of the few who realize that the best type of respect is that which is earned and shouldn't be abused by trying to make a point.
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CPL Dan Mathews
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LTJG Ansi Officer
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One of the best scenes I've ever watched.
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PO1 Mark Dozier
PO1 Mark Dozier
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I was going to sleep. now i have to watch we were soldiers.
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CPO Maritime Law Enforcement Specialist
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In my humble opinion people, in order to adhere to basic military core values you should treat all members with the same amount of respect. Whether they are an E-1 or one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They both raised thier right hand and swore to give their lives for this country. Furthermore they are both human beings and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. If a junior officer is disrespectful to a senior enlisted leader then it is the senior enlisted leaders responsibility to mentor the JO offline in a dignified manner. Regardless of rank, the true leader, the person the people will follow, is recognized by their strength of character and virtue.
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SFC William Farrell
SFC William Farrell
9 y
Thats the way I see it CPO (Join to see). We all put our pants on in the same way in the morning. I treat all with respect they deserve. Some people may consider their job or title to be below their own but I don't. We are all equals as human beings and deserve that much respect.
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MCPO John Kerr
MCPO John Kerr
9 y
Your values are spot on Chief!
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SPC(P) Information Security (Is) Analyst
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By the books and regulation, yes. Same with Warrant Officers... Now would I recommend an O-1 do that? Hah, well, I would let them figure that out on their own.
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CSM Brian Sann
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As a retired CSM, I will tell you that I would have followed the 2LTs order. We should maintain the standards at all times. Even the lowest TIG officer still outranks the most senior NCO. Upon completion of said discussion however, we would have had a mentoring session on my role and authority within the organization. I never forgot my role of teaching and mentoring all officers to include LTC/COLs when I served at the 2 Star Nominative level. It is a tremendous amount of responsibility when you sit next to the Boss and you speak on their behalf. It does take a mature person to understand how to communicate and support meeting the CDRs intent while supporting the leaders at all levels.
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SGT Chris Hill
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So there I was, in 2005, Ft Bliss, I was on gate guard at the motor pool. The BN CSM comes walking up and I jump up quickly, grab my weapon, I open the guard shack door and greet the CSM. He asks how we are doing and if we need anything from him (wouldn't say yes if my life depended on it) I told him negative CSM, all is great here. He told me to follow him as he strolled through the motor pool to look at everything in it's place. So I'm trucking along behind him, trying to stay close enough to hear him if he spoke to me, but far enough not to be too close.

I saw someone approaching us from about 25 meters ahead, thinking it's just some random private. I looked at his rank and realized he was a 1LT, and passed by us and the CSM said nothing to him as he was distracting looking all around. I saluted with my weapon and said the usual yada yada crap, right as I dropped my salute, I hear the 1LT say "Hey CSM, at least acknowledge me when passing by, or salute, you should know the standard." At that moment in my life, my eyes got wide and my heart started beating fast, wondering if I am seriously hearing those words.

The CSM turned around and said "Hey LT, if you didn't realize by now that if a CSM walks past you without saluting or acknowledging you, keep f*cking moving!" At this point, I felt like I was watching the apocalypse happening right in front of my face, the LT said "CSM, can we talk to the side please?" The CSM said, and I'll never forget this, "LT how long have you been in?", the LT says "about 3 years", the CSM laughed and said "My shinny boots, my badges, and even my soft cap have more TIS than you have" The CSM saluted him very sarcastically and said "You got your salute, but I'll get the last laugh kid". I wanted to slow clap so badly but I wasn't as stupid as that LT. Never heard what happened to the LT but I wish I could have.
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CPT Battalion Logistics Officer (S4)
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I'm sure that LT's BN CDR had a lot to say to him after that episode.
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CSM Andrew Perrault
CSM Andrew Perrault
>1 y
The CSM was way out of line.......
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SGT Chris Hill
SGT Chris Hill
>1 y
CSM Andrew Perrault - No he wasn't............
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CSM Andrew Perrault
CSM Andrew Perrault
>1 y
SGT Chris Hill - no csm should talk to an officer like that he lost his military bearing
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LTC Management Analyst
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Yes... he would. An O1 is still an officer and an E9 is still enlisted.

The correct rephrasing of this question should be "Would it be wise for an O1 to call an E9 to attention". We all know the answer to that. How this question is actually trending vexes me.
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1SG Charles Lyons
1SG Charles Lyons
9 y
Agreed!
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MCPO John Kerr
MCPO John Kerr
9 y
As does it me!
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PO1 Robert George
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9
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back in the day, i'm a BM1 rig captain on an LKA putting mike6's and mike8's in the water in choppy seas with a freshly minted butter bar as safety officer. I've got a 10 ton mike 8 swinging over my head and he starts giving orders to my crew getting em all jacked up. I tell the ensign his job is safety officer not rig captain and unless he sees something unsafe he needs to be quiet. went thru this several times before I finally told him to STFU and get off my station and not come back til he learned something. got a "i'm an officer, you can't talk to me like that". Told him " I will promise you an ass-chewin from the old man every day for the next two weeks if you don't leave". he don't leave and by this time CO goin nuts and BMC on station wantin to know what's goin on. BMC ends up dragging the ENS away and I finish getting boats in the water without getting my crew hurt. 2 weeks later ENS comes up to me and says 'OK Boats, you made your point. What do I need to do?" so I laid it out for him. Turned into one of the best damn DivO's I ever had. Sometimes they just don't know what they don't know!
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Cpl Mike OConner
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Well, this is hardly equitable.

But back in 1981, I was a salty E4, former Recon-Marine, who had spent the last couple of years of my tour skating out in Headquarters company, 7th Marines. I was the NCOIC of the Regimental Armory and had been given a no bullshit warning to get the keys to the armory back to the head-shed Guard Shack no later than 1630, unless I was ordered otherwise by CWO-4 Culbert over at the S4 and my boss.

One day, shortly thereafter, I look at the clock, it's 1615 and I tell my subordinate to get us logged out and let's call the guard and get them down here so he can walk the key home. He says that Special Services still haven't come back with their rifles. So I call down to special services and explain that they've got to get those weapons back down to the armory. I'm informed that the Platoon Leader is going off on the birds... and its going to be a while.

So I call the 4 shop and WO Culbert is out... as is the Major, no one around to OK the time. So i call back down to Ss and inform them that he needs to tell the Lt that if he doesn't get the weapons down to the armory, he'll have a charge sheet sitting on his desk by 1700... and I slam the phone down.

Sure enough, right at 1630, Special Services is doing the best they could in terms of a formation marching down the hill to the armory.

When they get there, Hoover and I are receiving their pieces as fast as humanly possible and I am yelling at them to get those rifles ready and in. A Marine comes to the window and informs me "Corporal we've got a Lt out here" and that I should stop yelling. To which I responded "Good, tell him to get his piece in here."

The next thing I know, there's a pounding on the main hatch and I'm busy as hell os I don't respond. When I finally get the rifles in, I walk out and see what all the pounding is and sure enough it's the Butter-Bar, who is demanding that I get outside and 'lock my body'. "Sir, I'm going to need that .45, I'm under orders to get this armory shut down and your piece is the only thing stopping that from happening.

He continues to demand that I get out there and 'lock my body'. I turn toward Hoover, who's a low time Lance-Corporal and is shitting his pants... . I guess I sorta smiled at the hilarity of the scene, because the Lt went nuclear, jumping around throwing knife hands at the bars... and I said "Lt, you need to calm down or I'm going to have to have the guard lock you up." The Lt. stopped immediately, looked at me like I'd just shot him in the heart... and 'calmly' began to sort of hum or vibrate in rage... slowly telling me to 'get out here'. I said "Lt. I need your piece, once I put in its whole, I'll return your card and you can do what ever you want to me, once I get the keys back to the guard shack."

He slowly pulls his pistol, hands it through the bars, trying to stare me down... I take his piece back to the Hd Qtrs bin, put it away and take the Lts Card back to him. I quietly do a quick security sweep to make sure all the respective bins are locked down and walk back down the quarterdeck looking at the Lt standing there, humming staring daggers through my soul.

When I open the door, the Lt looses it, starts jumping around doing his bet Drill Instructor. So bad is his tirade, the sentry stops, and when I look at him he pulls his rifle from his shoulder to port.

The Lt is steadily demanding that I 'lock my body'. I shook my head toward the sentry and did as loose an attention as I could, without being accused of refusal... listened to him threaten me with everything from being busted to death... and after probably 30 seconds I informed him that I had to get the key to the guard shack and he was welcome to come along, but that I had to go, turned and went.

(Wow, this took longer than I thought it would)

The Lt screamed at me all the way from the Armory, up the hill to the Guard... When I handed the key over to the Duty, I was informed that WO Culbert want to see me ASAP.

The Lt. gets this look of satisifaction on his mug and immediately calms down, returning to some semblance of military bearing... and we walk across the street to the four shop.

When I knocked on Jack Culberts door, the Lt shoves in past me and starts reading WO Culbert the riot act... He just sits there in his chair, as calm as a cucumber; as was his nature... he holds up a finger toward the Lt. and said 'excuse me sir', turns his head toward me... where I am standing with a curious smile in my face... waiting for the show to get started and he says: "Corporal OConner, I'll see you in the morning." The Lt immediately starts to demand I stay, claiming that 'this isn't over...'.

WO Culbert held his attention toward me and firmly says to me, "Leave, take the office with you and close the door."

So as I am backing out, I see the Lt turn to look at me, demanding I stay and I turn my head so as that he wouldn't see the burgeoning smile on my face... and close the door. He continues to yell with no response from the WO, until he hears the outer door close.

THEN... the conversation quieted down. The last thing I heard was "SHUT THE FUCK UP Lt and sit your ass down".

The next morning I had a fatherly/son and matter of fact discussion with Jack. "OConner, You're a good kid...". From there the discussion went real and I was informed that he was rotating back the Rock soon and 'wouldn't be there to protect me' and I should probably find a place to be that wasn't there'. My explanation was that when he gave me the gig, (I was a 27 months Lance Corporal at the time... ) that I promised him that of all his problems, the armory wouldn't be one of them... and that he'd ordered me directly to get that key back, time certain, no excuses. He agreed, but continued to coach me on 'appropriate responses' and that Lts were his problem, not mine, 'situational awareness' and the like.

WOW! I haven't thought of that in a million years... thanks for lettin' me get that out.

Best regards,
Mike O'Conner
Corporal
USMC - 'tired.
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CSM Richard StCyr
CSM Richard StCyr
9 y
Rally point is good therapy some days brother..
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COL Retired
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As a new 2Lt, I had Brigade Staff Duty (as we all did) and the MPs brought the CSM into the Brigade Headquarters. He was being "detained" for a domestic issue. I called Brigade Commander (BDE XO wasn't answering) and he told me to tell the CSM to stay in the office until he got there. I told him "Sir, no CSM in the world is going to listen to a 2Lt". He started laughing and said you're right, put him on the phone. Later, my Battalion Commander asked me why the Brigade Commander thought I was one of his smartest Lts. I didn't tell him about the CSM issue- wasn't my place. I just let it go. My father was a senior NCO- helped me know when to stay quite.
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1SG Ken Gillespie
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I saw this happen at Fort Campbell in 1978. The LT ordered the 326 EN BN CSM to attention after stating that the CSM failed to salute him. The CSM stood at attention for almost 15 minutes while the LT chewed him out. When he was done the CSM held formation for all the enlisted members of the battalion and space each enlisted person 10 feet from each other along the path to the LT's office.
as the LT left the office he had to render over 300 salutes before reaching the parking lot. .
This continued to next day for all three meals along the route to the mess hall from the LT's office.
The CSM was the last person in line for each meal. He then informed the LT that a CSM or any other enlisted person in the BN would not intentionally not render a salute to an officer.
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SPC Steven Padilla
SPC Steven Padilla
9 y
I was in 511th Sapper EN CO, 326th EN BN at Ft. Campbell in 2008-11. Glad to meet another sapper eagle.
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SGT Bryon Sergent
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Edited 9 y ago
Well I have a story on what a CSM told an O-3! So I say that it would defiantly go for an O-1! LMAO
After reading some post decided to share my story.

We had just completed a BN run. We where all standing in formation listening to the BC speak. When he finished and told us we were being released for the day early, as he turned it over to the CSM. His name was CSM Hatcher. 6'7 320 lb Black gentleman. 3 tours in Vietnam. Always called us babies and always warned us to stay away from the "panther piss"! lol told us stories of black plam and being chased by bushmaster snakes. Well, he gave his speech on how well we had done in the field the week prior and started his 5 point safety briefing.

"alright babies, here is your safety brief. 1 If you drink, don't drive. 2 if you drive, don't drink. 3 if you swim, don't drown. 4 if you (have sexual encounter), wear a rain coat. 5 stay the F*&K off my blotter report. You are dismissed!"

Well the BN split. We were told by the CO to stay for HIS safety briefing. He then went inside. Now the CSM is talking over in a corner across the way. He strolls over and ask my Plt Sergeant, why we were still in formation. My Plt Sergeant answered him saying that, we were waiting on the CO's safety brief. Well he blew his lid. " I have given the safety brief already"! I understand, was his reply but it's the CO. He took 3 steps in front of the formation and said and I quote, "If I see 1 swinging d*&k standing here in the next 30 seconds, everyone will be on my detail all weekend"! Just as the CO steps out, we split! rather be chewed out by the commander than being with a pissed off CSM all weekend! Everyone hit the windows that faced the court yard.

To make a long story shorter, the CSM told the CPT, after blowing his top, that he could go to hell. That he signed for us, from him and that we were his men. That he would retire as an E-9 even as he left as an E-1! Well, the BC came over, seeing that we all we watching, politely told them to go to his office and wait for him that the whole BN was watching their escapade!

The CO and the CSM were all buddy, buddy after that. When the CSM released us from that point on the CO let it be. CSM Hatcher retired a few months later and we had a change of command soon after that.

Not saying that was a good way to handle the situation, just sharing the experience.
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SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
9 y
Maj John Bell - In which case, would it not be tactfully appropriate for said CO to advise said CSM? After all, a separate issue that is crucial for one specific company is important, but something like that may or may not also need to come to the BN's attention anyway. Would it hurt to let the CSM know? I'm not up on the exact chain protocol for this because it has been a long time since I handled anything related to that and I was never at the unit end of it. It just seems there is always a way to handle things tactfully with respect for the actions of others within your unit.
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
9 y
SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates - Regardless, of the scenario. The company Commander is not required to make sure that his orders to his command are OK with the Battalion CSM. Quite the reverse. The Battalion CSM's responsibility only extends to notifying the Company Commander that what the Company Commander is doing falls outside the Battalion Commanders intent. If the Company Commander continues on his course of action, the only legal recourse the Battalion CSM has is to notify the Battalion CSM.

There is also a very real possibility that the CSM has been left out of the loop based on circumstances and not intentionally. The brash action by the CSM disregards that possibility.
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CPO John Halliday
CPO John Halliday
>1 y
Yes and then hope the young officer is assigned to my Division he will learn very quickly
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
>1 y
Let's talk about the problem from the get go.

1) If the Battalion Commander was going to hand off the formation to the Bn SgtMaj, it should not have come as a surprise to the Company Commanders.

2) Bn Sgt Majors or Bn CO's who have the formation should not dismiss the formation. Bn Sgt Majors turn the companies back to the 1st Sgts. Bn CO's turn the companies back down the Co CO's, and so on. As a norm, the final release should come from the squad leaders unless every officer and NCO knows it before the formation ever stands to on the grinder.

I was taught this by a Marine Sgt Major. I never served in a command where that wasn't the norm.

CSM Hatcher, in my opinion should have had to issue a public apology.
_If he can't remain calm and unemotional about about the dismissal of a formation and a perceived slight, he shouldn't wear the rank. He needs to learn some discretion.
_If he can't understand discipline... same as before.

The same Sgt Maj taught me that too.
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Maj John Bell
8
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Edited 9 y ago
I only ordered "lock it up Marine" to someone who was getting emotional and needed to take a breath. As soon as they regained their composure, I would tell them "stand easy". I also did not conduct discipline counseling when I was agitated. Sometimes telling someone "we will discuss this later." had the needed calming effect on both of us.

In my day, all of the commissioning sources did a pretty good job of explaining the weight of legal authority held by junior officers vs. wisdom/experience authority held by SNCO's. So I find it really difficult to imagine any Company Grade Officer thinking that locking up a SNCO was a viable course of action.

Other than being intoxicated, I can't imagine a situation where a seasoned Cpl., or a competent Sgt., would get to that point, let alone a Senior SNCO. I guess I might do it with an intoxicated SNCO who was abandoning his rank. But only if his actions had eliminated more discreet courses of action.
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SGM Infantry Senior Sergeant
6
6
0
LT: SGM, do you have change for a dollar?
SGM: Sure, LT
LT: That's no way to address an officer! Now let's try it again. Do you have change for a dollar?
SGM: No, SIR!
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Lt Col Jim Coe
6
6
0
Edited 9 y ago
If this happens, things got out of hand a long time before. The average LT should understand the power of the E-9. I had the honor of knowing a couple of Air Force flight engineer CMSgts who had fixed airplanes and flown as crew chiefs and engineers for nearly 30 years--they had flown in Korea and Viet Nam. The Captains and Majors in the squadron set the example for us junior officers by showing them a certain measure of respect, like always calling them "Chief" and asking their opinion on issues in their specialty. I learned quickly to call them Chief with about the same respect I called the Squadron Commander, "colonel." They never did anything to make me even remotely consider trying to pull rank on them. Showing such lack of mature communication with a Chief would probably get you a counseling session with your flight commander and possibly with the unit commander depending on the circumstances. This is not to say that the Chiefs were perfect. If a LT found a problem with a Chief as long as it didn't immediatley effect safety, security, or mission accomplishment, the best thing to do is to talk with your chain of command. The Squadron Commander can talk with the Chief if necessary.
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SGM Patrick Kirby
6
6
0
Yes, I would comply: as leaders we are always on display; to not reply is to discredit the young officer and the intregrity of the system. Wold that be the end of it, no. That would be handled between myself the young officer his commander.
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CPT(P) David Thorp
6
6
0
I could never do that. There are other ways.
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
SGM (Join to see)
9 y
Do you have enlisted time, Sir?
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CPT(P) David Thorp
CPT(P) David Thorp
9 y
10 years.
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
SGM (Join to see)
9 y
That puts your answer in context for me! Thank you, Sir.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
5
5
0
In 35 years I can't recall any LT's 2nd or 1st that went out of their way to talk to a 1SG let alone a SGM/CSM. I do remember a 2LTthat attempted top correct a CSM that was talking to some NCO's and the CSM just have a good day Sir,and walked away shaking his head. Later that day the LT met the BC, problem solved. Hell even before I retired I avoided CSM's/SGM's who in their right mind goes looking for trouble :) . On a side not that maybe some officers can answer, don't they teach you guys/gals to steer clear of grumpy old NONCOMS? There has to be a power point or briefing before you commission. Hell PVT's figure it out in basic :)
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PO2 Maritime Law Enforcement Specialist
5
5
0
I'm only an E-5 and I'd Probably just laugh at them. O-1's don't have much pull
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CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols
5
5
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It is a lawful order. A very IL-ADVISED lawful order. An up close and personal meeting will follow the situation I'm sure.
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SCPO Investigator
5
5
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I take it you missed the class in Boot Camp on rank and Officer v. Enlisted??? Why even ask such a question?
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LTJG Ansi Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
9 y
I occasionally like to stir the pot. ;)
In all honesty, I was looking forward to the reaction people would predict the E9 would have. You'd have to be crazy to disrespect a Chief or above in that caliber.
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MCPO Roger Collins
MCPO Roger Collins
9 y
LTJG (Join to see) - Glad you cleared that up, had me wondering. SCPO Donnie Bowerman had the same thought when I read your question. Of course, I would salute anyone with the gold, W-1 up to the CNO. However, when it comes to JOs, I do feel as if I had to properly teach them protocol when they get out of line. real difficult for a JO to have to learn about communications and all the documents relating to comms from an E-3 and somewhat embarrassing. He asked to to explain all about communications equipment and I tossed him the tech manual and said he needed to read up on each piece of equipment before I could intelligently discuss it with him. Lesson learned rather quickly. One of my Comm Officers, shortly after I made CPO asked me how I ever made CPO, I wonder how I ever made MCPO with my rather beligerant attitude
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LTJG Ansi Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
9 y
MCPO Roger Collins - That is a great example of why you should never let pride get in the way. As a fresh E4, I had LCDRs come to me for training because I was the SME on several UHF systems. I would always have enough time to train them, their JO's and the Chief's getting qualified. Whenever we rarely have that one person who is "too good" to ask for training from a junior enlistedman, they learn rather quickly that - that type of attitude and thinking won't get you very far. It's not about the rank, it's about the knowledge.
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MSG Stay At Home Dad
4
4
0
As a Master Sergeant (E8) in Afghanistan I passed a young 2LT as I was leaving a building and he was entering. I gave him a quick nod as I put my cap on my head and continued on. He called out, "Hey, troop." I turned my head and he said, "is that how the Army taught you to treat an officer?" I said "I'm not sure what you mean sir" to which he replied "oh now it's sir? You couldn't be bothered to even acknowledge me let alone salute when you passed me a minute ago!" So I went to attention, snapped him a salute, and said, sorry sir, I had things on my mind. I'll remember next time." He actually had the audacity to say, "you'd better."
Fast forward to a regional briefing a few weeks later. All of the brass were there, and I spotted this young 2LT sitting in one of the chairs against the wall as I came in. He also saw me, but looked confused as I took a seat AT THE TABLE. During the meeting the 2LT meekly raised his hand at one point to ask a question about Intel. The 1-Star in charge told him that it would be addressed during the Intel briefing part of the meeting. Shortly after, the 1-Star introduced me and said that as the resident Intel expert for our area I would be delivering the Intel briefing. Then he swiveled in his chair toward the 2LT and said, "Lieutenant, listen to this man. He has answers to questions you don't know to ask yet."
After I completed my briefing the 1-Star informed everyone that my office was the coordinating office for all Intel in the area and that they should all go to me for any questions or needs.
After that the 2LT found his way to my office, and apologized about twenty times over the course of an hour for his behavior. To which I continuously replied, "no worries sir, you're new. Everyone's gotta learn sometime."
MORAL: 1. Treat people with the respect that we all deserve as human beings. 2. Treat those with rank with the respect their ranks demands. 3. Don't EVER lord what you think is your power over others, because 4. someone else's position may be beyond what you think is your power.

*That lieutenant and I got along swimmingly after all of that.
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LTC Steve Jordan
4
4
0
I was enlisted, made E5 before OCS and retired out as an O5... I have seen some E* and E9 troops that should be locked up and read the riot act, but likely not by a 2LT unless it was an issue of serious injury... but some of the comments about Jo are funny... last I remember you take an oath to take orders of those appointed over you... also different mentalities in combat arms and non combat arms units... in a cav squadron I was assigned to before OCS, the CSM would great newly assigned company grade officers... he always addressed them as "sir" but would highlight the need for a haircut, uniform issues, spit shined boots, etc. and tell them to come check with him before they meet the commander as not to have them embarrassed if the old man ate them up on the initial visit... he was squared, hard but did not talk down to the JOs just helped them look squared away... and to realize the "cav standard"...as I was leaving for OCS, called me to ask why I did not want to work to be a CSM one day... then found a LT that had recently graduated OCS to tell me what to expect... then when I was leaving to Benning he called me in and gave me a butter bar, said he was proud of me and to put that bar inside my helmet liner and when times got hard to look at the bar and focus... then told me he did not want to see me again until I was commissioned... bottom line I was more scared of CSM and did not want to let him down vs any of my tactical officers or RI's that I ever met... but as an O3, and as a field grade locked up a few SGM/CSM who truly needed it; normally out of site of troops, as well as a few WO's that needed it... same with troops, but again normally not in front of others unless absolutely necessary.. as a commander 4 times my senior NCOs new that I had their backs when it came to supporting UCMJ issues... that way troops didn't come before me for silly shit, that is easily handled by the NCO Corps, as troops knew it would be hammer time... and the NCO leadership could truly run the unit as needed... I truly believe all Officers should do two years enlisted time until they pin on their O1... when your enlisted you are trained in your specific MOS and JO's receive a little about their specific branch, but also have some training in personnel, logistics, operations, communications, etc.... just enough for orientation and the idea you will learn more specifics depending whatever job you are assigned... thus some JOs come across as book smart but no military knowledge... lastly, had a friend that was an E7 (P), and took a direct commission to 2LT... was an SF stud, Vietnam vet...Silver Star, 6 Purple Heats, master blaster, Ranger, bla bla... anyway hilarious to see him in dress blues with all his warrior awards and medals walking @ field grade officers that looked naked in comparison to this "butter bar"... he was the oldest 2LT, 1LT, CPT, and MAJ on AD... was a great Soldier's Soldier at all grades he held...
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SGM Assistant Site Lead
SGM (Join to see)
9 y
LTC Steve Jordan, You have laid out some great points and I thank you for your service on both sides of the ranks. I salute you "Sir" and I am sure you can reference my comments and see the ladder ones as comments a Combat Arms Soldier would say, especially since I grew up around a lot of Vietnam Era Senior NCOs and Officers. By no mean was my comments to degrade or take awake from respecting officers or even other NCOs. I know what a professional leader should do and how to conduct myself in such a manner. If anyone new our Former Chief of Staff "GEN Casey", he was a great leader as a Battalion Commander and an Outstanding Leader as the Army Chief of Staff. I knew the UCMJ manual from cover to cover so as AR 600-20 "Army Command Policy" as well. Those were the key manuals that always kept me on the straight and narrow in which I knew the do's and the don'ts. It was my duty to respect the rank but I didn't have to respect the person, I lived and breath the UCMJ, Military Customs and Courtesy Manual and would eat others lunch for not abiding by them. Thanks for your outstanding comments "Army Strong".
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SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
9 y
The thumbs up was in direct response (and cheers) to the part about not disappointing your SGM/CSM, especially those who went to bat for you, bragged on you, or arranged for you to get special recognition based on a high opinion of you. I put my body through more abuse just so I could maintain the perceived high standard set by my SGM/CSM. I made sure I was always prepared to face them, especially since I had to work with them or meet with them on any given day. I was less apprehensive about any one officer I ran across than the senior enlisted I worked with.
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SSgt Jeremy Martin
4
4
0
The best thing I ever witnessed was on my first day at my first duty station. I was a E-2 Airman and didn't know anything. As I was walking up the stairs to report into my SQ, there was a brand new butter bar in front of me. Coming down the stairs was a Chief (E-9), who saluted the 2nd Lt and said "good morning Lt." As they passed the butter bar thought it was his job to stop the Chief and bring him to attention and "fix" his salute. After being dismissed, the Chief put his stuff in his car and went back up the stairs to the SQ. About an hour later, I was sitting next to the same butter bar doing some inprocessing on the computers. A Capt came into the office and asked for the butter bar to come with him, saying " the Commander would like to talk to you." The LT walked into the office and gave a reporting statement, the CC turned and looked at the couch and asked the Chief sitting there if he would like some more coffee. The Chief said no, I am good Sir. The CC asked the Chief to go about his day and he would meet up with him later. The LT was still holding the salute as the Chief walked by and then the CC asked the Chief to close the door behind him. The door and walls were thin enough to hear ever word that was being said to the LT and where he rates in this military. I believe the phrase, "The man you corrected his salute has more time in this military than you have alive."
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MAJ Anthony Maravola
4
4
0
Way back when I was a 2LT (1969, Ft Bragg, Airborne), I watched the Bn CSM just completely ream out a PFC for failing to salute the Co CDR. "Good," I thought. We need discipline . Not one minute later, the same CSM walked past me, looked me in the eye and didn't salute. Yes. I locked his heels. And There were no trips to the Bn CDR or any such nonsense. I had his respect from that day forward. No matter what you might think of 2LTs, they are officers and SGMs and CSMs are enlisted and there is protocol. Throughout my career, I always relied on my NCOs and I always had their back. I would never have tolerated any of them disrespecting even a 2LT.
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MCPO John Kerr
MCPO John Kerr
9 y
As a senior enlisted man, I never failed to salute any office, nor can I understand any other senior enlisted man not doing that. To me, it goes beyond protocol, it's a matter of character, and respect one has for themselves....not the respect they may expect from others!
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COL Infantry Officer
4
4
0
Yes, the CSM/SGM would have to comply. But there is much more to this issue. Why are the SGM/CSM and 2LT having a disagreement? What could they possibly be talking about where there is disagreement? Where is the 2LT's PSG and why isn't he involved in this? If the SGM/CSM and 2LT are disagreeing and it comes to the 2LT pulling rank, things have already gone downhill where really the only option the SGM/CSM has at that point is to snap to, say "yes Sir!!", and move out. THAT is what a squared away SGM/CSM would do. Disrespecting the 2LT is not something I would expect from a SGM/CSM.

NOW, the 2LT can most likely expect a chat forthcoming from the SGM/CSM's commander (a LTC at the least) and depending on what the disagreement was, it will be a learning experience for the 2LT. SGM/CSMs don't get to where they are by not knowing a lot of stuff. I imagine an apology from the 2LT to the SGM/CSM would be forthcoming after that chat. I have had 3 CSMs during my command time and 2 of them were outstanding. My subordinate officers understood that if the CSM was telling them something, 99.9% of the time the CSM and I had already discussed it and he and I were on the same page. The other .1% of the time the CSM knew my intent and command philosophy and they would be wise to listen to him. The Bn CSM and Bn XO are what I call freebies. Subordinate officers should seek out their counsel and do it often. That said, I would personally get a kick out of a 2LT with the balls to lock the heels of my CSM and would probably rag my CSM mercilessly (behind closed doors of course) if it happened to him. But if that ever happened, unless my CSM was so wrong as to violate UCMJ or get somebody injured, the 2LT would learn to never do that again. My approach when disagreeing with any subordinate is to hear everything, make a decision, then have them execute. The only time you should have to pull rank is when someone is disrespecting a superior. When that happens, the subordinate has lost military bearing and the superior has allowed conditions to fester where the subordinate feels it is acceptable to disrespect them. Not good no matter how you look at it.

Regarding addressing Soldiers, I always call them by their rank and last name. No first names. They earned their rank and whatever it is, deserves respect, a Private as much as a General.
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MAJ David Wallace
MAJ David Wallace
>1 y
Good post, sir! I think I remember those CSMs!!......."Second to None!"
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CSM Psychological Operations Specialist
4
4
0
According to regs yes but reallity, no, never seen it, won't happen. There was a LT whom during a 101st division run tried to pull that on the division SGM, that SGM not only put him in his place but that LT also received a GOMOR for the division commander
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MSgt Stephanie McCalister
4
4
0
Edited 9 y ago
The best example I can think of under these circumstances was one I personally experienced ... back as a young airman working in-shop maintenance on sensitive electronic equipment, in the middle of a delicate calibration, the shop was called to attention when a visiting general was escorted through .. I alone didn't stop, nor did I stand. Someone came up behind me and asked me what I was doing, I explained without taking my hands or my eyes off of my job ... over my shoulder I heard someone arguing that I was disrespecting a general officer ... the next question I received was 'what would happen if you stopped in the middle of what you're doing right this moment' .. I replied, still not looking over my shoulder or stopping, 'loss of several manhours, & the delay of a mission waiting on this repair Sir. This equipment calibration would have to be restarted from the beginning, and this is a time sensitive need' ... all those behind me moved away & moved on ... with the general admonishing his escorts as they moved away, that he wasn't there to interrupt the mission, he was there to observe how we do our jobs meeting the mission! Apparently I fulfilled that, because other than the usual break table give & take later on, I never heard anything else about it, LOL. I believe it comes down to prioritizing protocol vs reality - as others have mentioned, RESPECT! Know the circumstances & who or what you're dealing with!
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SGT AH-64 Attack Helicopter Repairer
3
3
0
As an NCO with near 8 years experience in the Army. I have seen several E-9's, all of them I would dare say we're the epitome of professionalism. We're I in their shoes, I will do as instructed. Even as a young SGT, I find myself consistently educating new PLs/Pilots about they way we operate in the hangar. I do not tell them how to do their jobs, that is the CDR'S role. I ensure they are educated and advised so they make the best decisions for the unit, as is their role. With these experiences, utilizing appropriate tact and respect will never get you Locked Up, especially if they understand what an NCO really is... keyword is BACKBONE.
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SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
9 y
*And mom beams again.* Good answer, my son.
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SSgt Utilities Chief
3
3
0
I would say no, primarily to stir it up, and say what we all really know.

It is true that enlisted swear to uphold orders from officers appointed over them. If you are a Sergeant Major, there is a distinct line of who is appointed over you; you are by no means "second in command" as is a common misconception but at the same time... You technically don't fall into the chain of command at all! You answer to the Commanding Officer- your sole purpose is to ensure that he is safe, looks great, and is able to make the best decision possible through your advice... A 2nd LT is not involved in that system, nor is one ever appointed over an E-9 (if so, a rarity). SNCOS in general are there to advise the commanders to make the right decision. Demanding this in public or private is doing the service, well, a disservice, and will ensure that the senior enlisted may think twice about molding a good officer.

Essentially, if you are a commissioned officer, you better have a damn good reason for putting anyone above E-6 at attention in public. It has it's place and time, to be sure, but keep in mind what messages that sends to juniors, because there is a lot, like: do I respect this senior enlisted now? Do irrespective this micromanaging officer now? Do I want to get promoted? Do I want to reenlist? And many others.
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SPC John Decker
3
3
0
As an enlisted service member, he/she should. That being said, any o-1 who gave that order would have to have the largest pair GOD ever put on somebody.
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SGT Observer   Controller/Trainer
3
3
0
By regulation yes. I once had the opportunity to see an O-3 attempt to "lock up" an E-9. I was in the SPT Plt in 1/33 AR back in 2000. We had just returned from a two week FTX and the BN CSM had held Bn formation and and put out that every swinging jack was to be out of Bn Ao in thirty minutes. The HHC Co had decided that because a work order for a pair of NVG's was not in the Arms room and until it was found. Well about twenty minutes goes by with the entire company standing in formation and the CSM pops his head out of the BN office and with some very colorful language asks what we were doing. The senior PSG proceeds to tell him and the CSM states that he will be leaving his office in three minutes and anyone still in the Ao will be trimming his grass because they can't follow orders. No sooner than CSM goes into the building then the Co CDR comes out and calls the company to attention. Halfway thru the commanders briefing then the CSM and LTC come walking out. The CSM is livid and Yells out "I thought I said for you F0*ks to beat feet. The Co turns and then proceeds to lock up CSM and tell him that it is his company and he will dismiss it when he is ready. CSM doesn't say a word just stands there at attention smiling. At this point we hear "Captain, A word please. CSM dismiss this company". You guessed it. The Bn Co standing off to the side wondering why a O-3 is dressing down "His" CSM and in front of the troops to boot. For the rest of that captains tour as commander he didn't go against anything that the CSM put out in a formation again
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CPT Battalion Logistics Officer (S4)
CPT (Join to see)
9 y
Holy balls. To do that, in front of the BC!! Oh to be a fly on the wall during that convo.
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CSM Andrew Perrault
CSM Andrew Perrault
9 y
Let me get this straight to Co Cdr holds formation and is briefing the Soldiers and halfway thru the brief the CSM come out and interrupts his brief with colorful language? In my view the CSM was way out of line and so was his BN Co he should of never let the CSM dismiss the company and where the heck was the 1SG? All kinds of wrong here......
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SGT Observer   Controller/Trainer
SGT (Join to see)
9 y
CSM Andrew Perrault - I will admit that those of us in formation were unsure of what was going on. At the time none of us were really aware. The SNCOs were tight lipped and quiet about it. One of my battles did say that he heard our PSG mumble oh shit but since its second hand I can't substantiate it
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CSM Andrew Perrault
CSM Andrew Perrault
9 y
CSM's should not do that to a Commander in front of Soldiers ....period!
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