Posted on Jan 10, 2016
Debate Over Women in Combat Continues to Roil Marine Corps
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RP Members the debate continues - even after the election there is concern that Trump will go in a different direction. I hope he doesn't. Your thoughts?
A top Marine general predicts that the Defense Department's vows to maintain the same standards for women and men in combat jobs won't last, saying the military will eventually be pressured to lower the qualifications so more women can serve in jobs like the Marine infantry.
The public comments by Gen. John Kelly, head of US Southern Command, underscored how strongly the Marines opposed Defense Secretary Ash Carter's plans to fully integrate women into all combat jobs, including the Marine Corps and special operations forces like Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets. A new, high-level disagreement is erupting over whether the Marine Corps must also fully integrate its 12-week recruit training program at Parris Island in South Carolina.
"They're saying we are not going to change any standards," Kelly told reporters at the Pentagon on Friday. "There will be great pressure, whether it's 12 months from now, four years from now, because the question will be asked whether we've let women into these other roles, why aren't they staying in those other roles? Why aren't they advancing as infantry people?"
SGT Leslie C. Erdman, JR SPC Michael Stedman Cody Masiero Cpl Casey Meyer CPT (Join to see) SPC Mary Hargrove CPL Phillipe Farneti LT Scott O'Shaughnessy, MBA SFC Rick H Sgt Eddie Green D. Cree Crawford SFC Scott Hudnall SFC (Join to see) SSG Darrin Bovia Sgt James Baxley ] Pmc Mcb SFC Dante Alanis SPC John W. PV2 Tj Scott
A top Marine general predicts that the Defense Department's vows to maintain the same standards for women and men in combat jobs won't last, saying the military will eventually be pressured to lower the qualifications so more women can serve in jobs like the Marine infantry.
The public comments by Gen. John Kelly, head of US Southern Command, underscored how strongly the Marines opposed Defense Secretary Ash Carter's plans to fully integrate women into all combat jobs, including the Marine Corps and special operations forces like Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets. A new, high-level disagreement is erupting over whether the Marine Corps must also fully integrate its 12-week recruit training program at Parris Island in South Carolina.
"They're saying we are not going to change any standards," Kelly told reporters at the Pentagon on Friday. "There will be great pressure, whether it's 12 months from now, four years from now, because the question will be asked whether we've let women into these other roles, why aren't they staying in those other roles? Why aren't they advancing as infantry people?"
SGT Leslie C. Erdman, JR SPC Michael Stedman Cody Masiero Cpl Casey Meyer CPT (Join to see) SPC Mary Hargrove CPL Phillipe Farneti LT Scott O'Shaughnessy, MBA SFC Rick H Sgt Eddie Green D. Cree Crawford SFC Scott Hudnall SFC (Join to see) SSG Darrin Bovia Sgt James Baxley ] Pmc Mcb SFC Dante Alanis SPC John W. PV2 Tj Scott
Debate Over Women in Combat Continues to Roil Marine Corps
Posted from military.com
Marines
Women in the Military
Combat
Standards
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 34
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Capt Richard I P.
For the record CPT Toby Forbes and Cpl (Join to see) General Kelly and General Dunford are very good friends, and General Kelly had very good things to say when General Dunford was appointed.
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Capt Lance Gallardo
No daylight between them. As I recounted above in this thread, it was Gen. Dunford who did the formal casualty call himself in 2010, personally, to tell his friend that his son, had died in Afghanistan.
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MSgt George Cater
MSgt (Join to see) - Gender neutral standards for Infantry, SPECOPS, USMC Infantry Officer Basic, etc. is the only fair and moral thing to do as long as (wait for it...) the standards are the same as presently in place that have ensured that only the best qualified make the grade established by combat tested leaders with mission success as the only goal (NOT PC, social lab-rat, feel good, everyone gets a trophy, equality of outcome social engineering).
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Jenn Moynihan
MSgt George Cater - As a relatively physically strong, not to mentioned stubborn & determined, woman I agree with you 100%. Standards should remain and if an individual makes it then they've earned it. Male or female. If we look at the ratio of men "wanting to make a special op team" to "those who make it" many more do not.
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No surprise there COL Mikel J. Burroughs. As an infantryman who happened to be part of the first USMA class which included women cadets I recognize that women have been involved in combat since time immemorial - usually not by the choice of the women involved.
That does not mean that women should necessarily be incorporated into all combat roles in any case. I fully concur with the "public comments by Gen. John Kelly, head of US Southern Command, underscored how strongly the Marines opposed Defense Secretary Ash Carter's plans to fully integrate women into all combat jobs, including the Marine Corps and special operations forces like Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets."
"They're saying we are not going to change any standards," Kelly told reporters at the Pentagon on Friday. "There will be great pressure, whether it's 12 months from now, four years from now, because the question will be asked whether we've let women into these other roles, why aren't they staying in those other roles? Why aren't they advancing as infantry people?"
When I was cadet with the first USMA West Point which class which included women, standards had to be developed for women from everything from haircuts and uniform standards through physical conditioning and training requirements and many things in between.
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL LTC Stephen C. Capt Seid Waddell CW5 (Join to see) SFC William Farrell SSgt (Join to see) SGT (Join to see) SP5 Mark Kuzinski SGT Forrest Stewart SPC (Join to see) SrA Christopher Wright
Maj William W. 'Bill' Price Capt Tom Brown SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"SSgt Robert Marx TSgt Joe C. SGT Robert George PO2 Ed C.
That does not mean that women should necessarily be incorporated into all combat roles in any case. I fully concur with the "public comments by Gen. John Kelly, head of US Southern Command, underscored how strongly the Marines opposed Defense Secretary Ash Carter's plans to fully integrate women into all combat jobs, including the Marine Corps and special operations forces like Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets."
"They're saying we are not going to change any standards," Kelly told reporters at the Pentagon on Friday. "There will be great pressure, whether it's 12 months from now, four years from now, because the question will be asked whether we've let women into these other roles, why aren't they staying in those other roles? Why aren't they advancing as infantry people?"
When I was cadet with the first USMA West Point which class which included women, standards had to be developed for women from everything from haircuts and uniform standards through physical conditioning and training requirements and many things in between.
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL LTC Stephen C. Capt Seid Waddell CW5 (Join to see) SFC William Farrell SSgt (Join to see) SGT (Join to see) SP5 Mark Kuzinski SGT Forrest Stewart SPC (Join to see) SrA Christopher Wright
Maj William W. 'Bill' Price Capt Tom Brown SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"SSgt Robert Marx TSgt Joe C. SGT Robert George PO2 Ed C.
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SSgt Robert Marx
It is incredible in the amount of minutia of details that must be incorporated in order for anything to be made accessible to both sexes. The submarine command is a poster child for this as well as the entire inventory of fighting ships in the US Navy. Simple things have to be changed as well as the major things such as berthing spaces, restrooms, and the like. The military academies surely resisted until the fight was lost to keep out women just as institutions always resist change as a benefit to their institutional mind sets.
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I just read an awesome article by a female Marine officer addressing this topic:
https://www.blackfive.net/main/2013/01/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal.html
[Updated AGAIN to reflect the new URL for the article. Apparently the original article has been scrubbed from the MCA website.]
https://www.blackfive.net/main/2013/01/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal.html
[Updated AGAIN to reflect the new URL for the article. Apparently the original article has been scrubbed from the MCA website.]
Get Over It! We Are Not All Created Equal
The Marine Corps tested females in front line combat units aka Infantry. The Marine Corps did not lower the standard and allowed females to participate and qualify for the infantry officers course. The Marine Corps passed to congress and higher that it would not be a good idea ton implement women into the infantry. What does the Marine Corps know? They only have been fighting our nations wars, that's all. Well, to already cluster strike an...
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Sgt Joseph Baker
Yes, excellent article that will fall on deaf ears. She raised the point that even if a female actually survives training at the same level as the males, in the long term she has likely chosen to cripple herself to be like the boys. There are plenty of big men you end up with spinal issues from these kind of physical rigors over time. Repetitive stress injuries are a big problem as well, for men, and men generally are built sturdier, that's reality. I feel for females like the writer of this article who are now broken down long before they reached opportunities for higher rank.
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SSG (Join to see)
I am going to have to agree with her on all of her points. As an Instructor I have seen the Army change standards to incorporate the integration of females in all roles and while the physical demands standards are the same for males and females, they are required to perform these tasks not during periods of fatigue or extended operations but well rested. I believe in equal rights but as leaders whose doing the risk assessment and long term analysis for this course of action?
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SSG Chris Watson
SSG (Join to see) - The "leaders" won't be around years down the road when the consequences of the policy come back to bite the affected servicemembers. They will be giving speeches (charging insanely outrageous speaking fees) and being celebrated for how "forward thinking" they were.
By the way, here's another good article from a female officer:
https://medium.com/@Doctrine_Man/diversity-at-what-cost-207a499a4978#.dor5xysn8
By the way, here's another good article from a female officer:
https://medium.com/@Doctrine_Man/diversity-at-what-cost-207a499a4978#.dor5xysn8
A MINORITY FEMALE LEADER’S PERSPECTIVE
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