Posted on Jun 27, 2015
Millions of Americans still embrace the Confederate flag. Should we dismiss them all as racists?
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After the horrific, racially motivated massacre last week of nine black Bible study participants at a church in Charleston, South Carolina, there has been a righteous rush to remove the Confederate flag from government property and the goods of many national retailers. And it seems we've reached a landmark tipping point: After decades of defending the Confederate flag, many conservative lawmakers have publicly and aggressively joined the fight against this longtime symbol of the South.
However, there are still millions of Americans in the South who (probably quietly, these days) remain deeply invested in the Confederate flag. I am not one of them. But I do believe their concerns and beliefs are worth considering without dismissing them wholesale as a bunch of backwards racists, as much of the American left seems eager to do.
Some defenders of the flag worry about a slippery slope. They oppose its removal from state capitols and insignias because they think there's no logical stopping point.
First came the calls to take down the Confederate flags flying over state property. Then Virginia moved to scrap a small license plate program for the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Before long, private companies said they would discontinue selling Confederate-themed products. Now everything from roads to statutes commemorating Confederate figures could wind up on the chopping block.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/millions-of-americans-still-embrace-the-confederate-flag-dont-dismiss-them-all-as-racists/ar-AAc9zqW
However, there are still millions of Americans in the South who (probably quietly, these days) remain deeply invested in the Confederate flag. I am not one of them. But I do believe their concerns and beliefs are worth considering without dismissing them wholesale as a bunch of backwards racists, as much of the American left seems eager to do.
Some defenders of the flag worry about a slippery slope. They oppose its removal from state capitols and insignias because they think there's no logical stopping point.
First came the calls to take down the Confederate flags flying over state property. Then Virginia moved to scrap a small license plate program for the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Before long, private companies said they would discontinue selling Confederate-themed products. Now everything from roads to statutes commemorating Confederate figures could wind up on the chopping block.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/millions-of-americans-still-embrace-the-confederate-flag-dont-dismiss-them-all-as-racists/ar-AAc9zqW
Confederate Flag
Political Correctness
Military History
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 89
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Banning the flag is a media driven, knee jerk reaction bandwagon that everyone is jumping on in order to maintain a façade of political correctness - whatever that means.
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Capt Jeff S.
How well do you know your history? What caused the South to want to secede? Did the South have a right to secede? Was Honest Abe as honest as portrayed in the history books or did he shred the Constitution to go to war against the South so he could preserve the Union? Was John Wilkes Booth a patriot or treasonous scum? What was his motivation for assasinating Lincoln?
Before you go calling those in the Confederate Army treasonous scum, understand that New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Vermont were also slave states at one time. At the start of the Civil War, four states in the North were still slave states and when Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation, he only freed the slaves in the South. Slavery still existed in the North for the duration of the Civil War and Delaware was the last state to officially get rid of slavery... in 1901!
Lincoln made slavery an issue to get elected. It had fallen out of favor in Europe and the U.S. was following suit. The North was quicker to give up slavery because its economy was not as agrarian and its industry was able to operate without unskilled slave labor. Lincoln wanted to free the slaves, yes, but he also believed that the country would have fewer problems if it simply got rid of them and he had intentions of deporting them to Africa, as well as the Caribbean and South America (where the majority of slaves went in the first place). Had Lincoln not been assassinated, he most surely would have done that to the freed black slaves.
Those who rebelled against the North were exercising their right to leave. The North with its larger population was steamrolling the South in Congress. The North passed legislation forcing the South to sell their cotton to the mills up North so they could cash in on the South's agricultural success. The South wanted to sell its cotton to Europe where it could make more money. These and other issues made Southerners feel as if they had lost their voice in government and that the Federal Gov't was tone deaf, ignoring the Constitution and consolidating too much power in itself. Secession was their last resort and the only option they felt they had left to have a voice in their own affairs. Contrary to what you believe, slavery was NOT the main reason the South went to war against the North.
Before you go calling those in the Confederate Army treasonous scum, understand that New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Vermont were also slave states at one time. At the start of the Civil War, four states in the North were still slave states and when Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation, he only freed the slaves in the South. Slavery still existed in the North for the duration of the Civil War and Delaware was the last state to officially get rid of slavery... in 1901!
Lincoln made slavery an issue to get elected. It had fallen out of favor in Europe and the U.S. was following suit. The North was quicker to give up slavery because its economy was not as agrarian and its industry was able to operate without unskilled slave labor. Lincoln wanted to free the slaves, yes, but he also believed that the country would have fewer problems if it simply got rid of them and he had intentions of deporting them to Africa, as well as the Caribbean and South America (where the majority of slaves went in the first place). Had Lincoln not been assassinated, he most surely would have done that to the freed black slaves.
Those who rebelled against the North were exercising their right to leave. The North with its larger population was steamrolling the South in Congress. The North passed legislation forcing the South to sell their cotton to the mills up North so they could cash in on the South's agricultural success. The South wanted to sell its cotton to Europe where it could make more money. These and other issues made Southerners feel as if they had lost their voice in government and that the Federal Gov't was tone deaf, ignoring the Constitution and consolidating too much power in itself. Secession was their last resort and the only option they felt they had left to have a voice in their own affairs. Contrary to what you believe, slavery was NOT the main reason the South went to war against the North.
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SGT Apollo Sharpe
Once again, you’re trying to muddy the water with irrelevant data. Do you know what treason is? Slavery isn’t treason against the nation, so bringing up northern slave states does absolutely nothing for your argument. Attempting to create a whole new nation out of part of a nation that already exists is treason. And yes, I know all about old Abe. Yet, nothing that you’ve said has changed the fact that the confederacy is a treasonous group that LOST & deserve zero commemoration.
And by the way, that’s not whining, those are facts.
And by the way, that’s not whining, those are facts.
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GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad, no we should not dismiss "all supporters of the right who display the confederate battle flag" as racist.
I personally prefer the Don't Tread on Me coiled rattlesnake symbol as my symbol against tyranny of the Federal Government primarily and all government tyranny in principle.
If we haven't learned anything from the transformation of one of the more civilized countries in Europe to became Nazi Germany, we need to remember that a strong centralized government seeking to expand power will go after and marginalize those who are opposed to in incrementally. They we try to get many to agree that one group is worse than the rest, after that group is ostracized they will go after other groups with renewed vigor.
I personally prefer the Don't Tread on Me coiled rattlesnake symbol as my symbol against tyranny of the Federal Government primarily and all government tyranny in principle.
If we haven't learned anything from the transformation of one of the more civilized countries in Europe to became Nazi Germany, we need to remember that a strong centralized government seeking to expand power will go after and marginalize those who are opposed to in incrementally. They we try to get many to agree that one group is worse than the rest, after that group is ostracized they will go after other groups with renewed vigor.
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LTC Stephen F.
Sgt Bob Leonard - Thanks for weighing in two years after the discussion which was posted in the months after I joined RallyPoint.
The petri dish of social Darwinism was alive and well in this nation in the 1920s as well which is when eugenics took off to help stop the burgeoning masses in the cities from reproducing
1. I said more not most civilized countries
2. I have been studying history for over 50 years and prefer primary sources. Germany like Italy was established as a nation in 1871 from city states.
3. In the Great War, the Central Powers including Germany were defeated and the entire county was penalized not just the leaders, military and industry - total warfare.
4. the primary definition of civilized nation is "Having a highly developed society and culture." The language of science and mathematics had been German, much of the great artwork, classical music and the reformation originated in Germany.
FYI COL Mikel J. Burroughs LTC Stephen C. Capt Seid Waddell Capt Tom Brown SFC William Farrell SSgt Robert Marx Maj Marty Hogan PO1 William "Chip" Nagel SPC Margaret Higgins SSG William Wall MSgt Jason McClish AN Christopher Crayne LTC Bill Koski Sgt Trevor Barrett SPC Tom DeSmet SGT Charles H. Hawes LTC Wayne Brandon SGT (Join to see)
The petri dish of social Darwinism was alive and well in this nation in the 1920s as well which is when eugenics took off to help stop the burgeoning masses in the cities from reproducing
1. I said more not most civilized countries
2. I have been studying history for over 50 years and prefer primary sources. Germany like Italy was established as a nation in 1871 from city states.
3. In the Great War, the Central Powers including Germany were defeated and the entire county was penalized not just the leaders, military and industry - total warfare.
4. the primary definition of civilized nation is "Having a highly developed society and culture." The language of science and mathematics had been German, much of the great artwork, classical music and the reformation originated in Germany.
FYI COL Mikel J. Burroughs LTC Stephen C. Capt Seid Waddell Capt Tom Brown SFC William Farrell SSgt Robert Marx Maj Marty Hogan PO1 William "Chip" Nagel SPC Margaret Higgins SSG William Wall MSgt Jason McClish AN Christopher Crayne LTC Bill Koski Sgt Trevor Barrett SPC Tom DeSmet SGT Charles H. Hawes LTC Wayne Brandon SGT (Join to see)
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Sgt Bob Leonard
LTC Stephen F. - Sir, I accept that you have a much broader and deeper foundation on which to base your opinions. Recognizing that, let me ask for your thoughts: If not for the heavy and harsh treatment of Germany (et al) by the victorous Allies, do you think that Hitler would have found a culture/environment as receptive to him and his brand of uber "Aryan Exceptionalism"?
Or do you think a cultural imperative characterized by such as eugenics would have taken hold anyway, ultimately and inexorably leading to the Holocaust, or something similar?
I realize that trying to retroactively forecast(?) the consequences of modifying only one facet of the historical narrative is probably a foolish quest, nonetheless, I ask.
(Personally, from my relatively ignorant perspective, I question that WW2, in any form, would have happened if not for the vindictive treatment of the vanquished by the victors.)
Or do you think a cultural imperative characterized by such as eugenics would have taken hold anyway, ultimately and inexorably leading to the Holocaust, or something similar?
I realize that trying to retroactively forecast(?) the consequences of modifying only one facet of the historical narrative is probably a foolish quest, nonetheless, I ask.
(Personally, from my relatively ignorant perspective, I question that WW2, in any form, would have happened if not for the vindictive treatment of the vanquished by the victors.)
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LTC Stephen F.
Sgt Bob Leonard -
1. ref "If not for the heavy and harsh treatment of Germany (et al) by the victorious Allies, do you think that Hitler would have found a culture/environment as receptive to him and his brand of uber "Aryan Exceptionalism"?"
a. If the Entente allies of the Great War had limited their punishment to the government and military and they did not break up the young German nation; I think the National Socialists would not have been able to take advantage of the "perfect storm."
b. Since Poland took part of the German speaking lands and the German people were laboring to make enough money to purchase a daily meal.
c. The Weimar Republic allowed hyperinflation to pay of the national debt to the Entente allies.
1. ref "If not for the heavy and harsh treatment of Germany (et al) by the victorious Allies, do you think that Hitler would have found a culture/environment as receptive to him and his brand of uber "Aryan Exceptionalism"?"
a. If the Entente allies of the Great War had limited their punishment to the government and military and they did not break up the young German nation; I think the National Socialists would not have been able to take advantage of the "perfect storm."
b. Since Poland took part of the German speaking lands and the German people were laboring to make enough money to purchase a daily meal.
c. The Weimar Republic allowed hyperinflation to pay of the national debt to the Entente allies.
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No.
"After decades of defending the Confederate flag, many conservative lawmakers have publicly and aggressively joined the fight." Why are they changing their stance, the movement to remove the Confederate flag has been around for years. The difference is an event has occurred that is the catalyst to forcing ordinary citizens and politicians to take one position rather than another. We are seeing the shift from political persuasion to political coercion.
Why are we hearing more about the Confederate flag removal than we are hearing about Dylan Roof? Dylan Roof is responsible for the murder of 9 people not the Confederate flag, the weapon, the clothes he wore, the car he drove to the scene...
"After decades of defending the Confederate flag, many conservative lawmakers have publicly and aggressively joined the fight." Why are they changing their stance, the movement to remove the Confederate flag has been around for years. The difference is an event has occurred that is the catalyst to forcing ordinary citizens and politicians to take one position rather than another. We are seeing the shift from political persuasion to political coercion.
Why are we hearing more about the Confederate flag removal than we are hearing about Dylan Roof? Dylan Roof is responsible for the murder of 9 people not the Confederate flag, the weapon, the clothes he wore, the car he drove to the scene...
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