Posted on Oct 11, 2015
Does the Second Amendment need to be Amended?
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There's been a lot of debate about firearms and firearm ownership recently. I've been a part of a lot of it. I think one thing that is achingly necessary is some close reading of the Second Amendment itself. I slapped together a powerpoint for my sister a few years ago on the topic, and will post the text here with the title slide as an image (because it outlines the argument.)
2. Inherent Right to Self Defense
All persons entitled to defend their lives
A threat to one’s life can only be answered with deadly force
Not granted by society, intrinsic to life
Denial of this is endorsement of cannibalism
Granted by God or by nature
Not everyone believes in god
Not everyone can follow this level of philosophy
3. Constitutional Protection
Is highest law of the land
Any law lower that contradicts is null
Many laws already contradict constitution and should be held null but are not
Committing some wrongs do not mean we need to commit more
Only entity Officers of US swear to support and defend
Supreme Court interprets BUT
Has ruled badly in past i.e. Dred Scott
Usually rules against individual liberty
4. Original Intent
Only way to address constitution
Interpreting as we please renders document meaningless
Must obey as written, guided by intent
If desired can AMMEND text
5. Original Intent: Text Analysis
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Assisted by Webster’s dictionary 1828. Constitution drafted 1789 Most founders knew Noah Webster (he edited some Federalist papers), he likely represented their ideas of words, Oxford English Dictionary also an option, but requires pay access.
Well regulated: “Adjusted by rule, method or forms; put in good order” disciplined, capable, well-drilled, well-trained, able
Militia: “The militia of a country are the able bodied men organized into companies, regiments and brigades, with officers of all grades, and required by law to attend military exercises on certain days only, but at other times left to pursue their usual occupations” men between ages of 15 and 45 able to bear arms, who drill and are available for call-up
Necessary: “1. That must be; that cannot be otherwise; indispensably requisite. It is necessary that every effect should have a cause. 3. Unavoidable; as a necessary inference or consequence from facts or arguments.”
Free: 2. In government, not enslaved; not in a state of vassalage or dependence; subject only to fixed laws, made by consent, and to a regular administration of such laws; not subject to the arbitrary will of a sovereign or lord; as a free state, nation or people. The opposite of how the colonists felt themselves under Britain.
State: 5. A political body, or body politic; the whole body of people united under one government, whatever may be the form of the government. All people united under government.
Right: “10. Just claim; immunity; privilege. All men have a right to the secure enjoyment of life, personal safety, liberty and property. We deem the right of trial by jury invaluable, particularly in the case of crimes. Rights are natural, civil, political, religious, personal, and public. 11. Authority; legal power. We have no right to disturb others in the enjoyment of their religious opinions.” Not subject to restriction.
People: “1. The body of persons who compose a community, town, city or nation.” All people, not necessarily united in government.
Keep: “1. To hold; to retain in one's power or possession; not to lose or part with; as, to keep a house or a farm; to keep any thing in the memory, mind or heart. 2. To have in custody for security or preservation.” To possess under your own power.
Bear: 2. To carry; to convey; to support and remove from place to place; as, "they bear him upon the shoulder;", "the eagle beareth them on her wings.“12. To possess and use as power; to exercise; as, to bear sway.” Carry anywhere.
Arms: “1. Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body. Sire arms, are such as may be charged with powder, as cannon, muskets, mortars, &c. A stand of arms consists of a musket, bayonet, cartridge-box and belt, with a sword. But for common soldiers a sword is not necessary.” Not Small Arms, a Stand of Arms, no “except sire arms or crew-served weapons or cannon”.
Shall not be: not may not or maybe not, or might be, or could be
infringed: “Broken; violated; transgresses.”
6. Constitutional Protection: Key Words
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Words were chosen carefully.
It is the people, not the state, states or militia whose right shall not to be infringed.
The right is to keep and bear arms, not to access, practice or only keep or only bear.
Arms are not small arms, are not a specific type of arms, there is no prohibition on types arms, understanding of larger weapons with high lethality (mortars and cannon) was widespread
7. Defend Self From Government
Founders had observed war of self defense against government
Understood risk of tyrannical government and wanted to guarantee balance of power
Jefferson even endorsed violent clashes
Modern militias CAN challenge national forces
Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine
Numerical, terrain advantages, capture of equipment and defection from government forces quickly even odds.
8. Defend Self From Government
Governments are scary
They kill more people than criminals BY FAR
In the 20th century most countries herded citizens into concentration camps at one point or another (US to Japanese)
It is hard to herd armed people into camps
Nazi Gun Control legislation enabled their genocides (JPFO studies on this-also link US Gun Control Act of 1968 to the Nazi text directly)
Armed Jews are scarier than disarmed Jews: Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
9. Defend Self From Government
The first gun control law National Firearms Act of 1934 was wrought with problems
Allegedly a revenue raising measure, not a ban
State’s case claimed short barreled shotguns in specific were not militia weapons as not used by any military (falsely)
Ignored that NFA 1934 also taxed Machine Guns, definitely used by Militaries
No defense counsel or brief submitted to Supreme Court
Very tricky, specific, semi-dishonest argument involving serial numbers won case
Even the A-USA in the first gun case before the court acknowledged the 2nd amendment is intended to protect military style weapons.
Registration leads to confiscation, there has been no example of national registration schemes not followed by confiscation of some or all registered weapons
10. Defend Self From Government
Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Weapons, Autonomous Weapons?
These are scary
People probably should not have them
Maybe we need a constitutional amendment
I would prefer governments not have them either, they are the only ones proven to have used them before, and will likely again.
11. Defend Self From Criminals
It is certain that in addition to protection from government, people are entitled to protect themselves from violence by criminals
This derives from the natural right to self defense
Founders understood the need, living before an era of police, and it is acceptable to argue this as a reason AFTER arguing protection for government (same with hunting)
Police cannot respond fast enough to save lives, just investigate after
Police cannot have legal obligation to protect people’s lives (case law has held this)
12. Defend Self From Criminals
Criminals do not obey laws-hence they are criminals
They will not obey gun laws
Only law abiding citizens will
Ordering the law abiding to disarm creates easy victims: “victim disarmament”
Any area the law abiding citizen’s right to bear arms is infringed will become a target for a criminal: ALL of the recent mass shootings occurred in legal (albeit unconstitutional) ‘gun-free’ zones
Lawful gun owners OFTEN end shootings with minimal or NO casualties.
Not being armed equally to criminals means the law abiding fight at disadvantage
Reload times kill (must have full capacity mags)
Don’t require the law abiding to bring a knife to a gun fight or a pistol to a rifle fight, or fists to an anything fight
13. Bad Arguments
It is bad to end the debate with god or nature and not include the constitution, most people cant handle esoteric, or belief arguments. This argument shuts down debate.
It is bad to interpret the constitution however we please, this renders it useless. This argument shuts down the debate.
It is bad to begin the argument of defense of self from government but not follow it all the way through its logical progression, that all existing gun control law is null as unconstitutional. This surrenders logical consistency and truth.
It is bad to begin to argue pragmatics on crime and self protection without including first protection from government, it is not the intent of the amendment.
It is wrong to even allow the opponents to use the phrases (let alone use them ourselves) ‘hunting and sporting’ these are not the intent of the amendment, do not derive from the right to self defense, and most importantly come from GCA 1968 which came from Nazi Gun Control laws
14. Definitions (Military not Legal)
Vehicles usually require a crew to employ and always require a large crew to maintain
E.G. Tanks, Helicopters, Jets, Armored Cars
Crew Served Weapons (CSW) require 2 or more people to employ
Weapons:
Cannon: CSW Large gun 40mm or larger, usually direct fire (flat trajectory)
Howitzer: CSW Large Indirect fire cannon
Mortar: CSW High angle indirect fire weapon
Grenade launcher: gun that fires grenades usually 37 mm or larger (close range indirect fire)
Machine Gun: CSW (usually) Often Belt Fed Gun that fires as long as the trigger is depressed, Heavy is .50cal Medium is .308cal and light .223 Cal (or near these calibers in soviet arms)
Sniper/Special purpose scoped rifle: CSW (when properly used) Long range (1000+ yd) rifle with a scope usually .308 cal or above
Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR): Medium Range (500-800 yds) rifle with a scope, usually .308 cal
Battle Rifle: Medium Range rifle (0-500 yds)
Assault rifle: Smaller caliber rifle for use by assault force, not suppression, light, close-range (0-300)
Carbine: Smaller caliber or powder compromise between a rifle and a submachine gun used for people not expected to be in combat or who MUST have light weight (paratroopers etc.) (0-300)
Submachine Gun: SMG small carbine that shoots a pistol caliber to limit recoil used for very close work that requires fast fires close assault, room clearing (0-100 yds)
Shotgun: Large bore gun for close range work can be automatic, semi-automatic or pump, usually fed fro m a tubular internal magazine newer models include detachable (0-100 yds)
Machine Pistol: An SMG, or a small SMG that looks like a pistol
Pistol: Semi automatic , automatic , or revolving chambered gun operable with one hand with much less powder than even a carbine round (often in calibers .45 and below)
Parts
Clip: a stripper clip has a number of rounds held together on a piece of metal for pushing into the gun rapidly, there they are stored in an internal magazine, “stripper” clips push the rounds off and into the magazine “en bloc” clips go into the guns magazine themselves
Magazine: Where rounds are stored before firing , internal magazines are rare anymore, much more common are detachable magazines often abbreviated “mags” the only military reason for limiting capacity is weight and unwieldy designs, this usually results in 20 rounds for .308, 30 for .223 and around 8-20 for pistols based on caliber size
It has become a legal debate since someone arbitrarily picked “10” as a magazine capacity limit in California, anti gunners say “high capacity” pro gun folk say “full capacity” or just “mag”
Belt: Disintegrating or reloaded (older or soviet) belts fire all rounds linked together fed from a bag or a box. Machineguns use this
Ammunition Round (Ammo, round or Cartridge) the complete package a gun fires (powder, bullet, casing, primer)
Bullet: Projectile that flies from a gun usually smaller and non-explosive
Casing: the brass that encases the powder, crimps to the bullet and holds the primer, ejects from gun after firing
Round: Individual unit of complete ammunition, includes bullet, casing, powder and primer
Shell: Canon or Howitzer bullet OR shotgun complete usually with plastic casing
Grenade: small explosive, can be designed to be thrown (hand-grenade) or fired from a launcher (it can only be either-or)
Measurements:
Caliber: imperial measures from groove to groove in hundredths of an inch diameter ex. .308
MM: metric measurements of lands to lands in mm, usually followed by a metric measurement of the length of the cartridge ex. 7.62x51
15. Rapid responses to opponents
Mass killings:
Not statistically rising or falling
Occur with similar volume and intensity per capita in nations with intense arms control (wiki rampage killings)
Highest casualty US school killing was in the 1920s, used explosives
Legally obtained automatic weapons have been used in 2 crimes in US history, one by a cop
Cops commit more illegal gun violence than concealed carry permit holders
Why don’t cops get mugged?
Guns are equalizers: 225lb 6’2 man vs 5’9 120lb woman: the outcome only changes when she has a gun
16. Pro Gun Organizations (Biased list)
Revolutionary War Veterans of America
Teach the historical connection between guns and the revolution, skills necessary to shoot
“no politics after 1776”
Gun Owners of America
Second biggest Pro gun lobby, second highest profile, very libertarian
“The only no-compromise gun lobby In Washington” –Ron Paul
National Association for Gun Rights
Rocky Mountain roots, anti-UN streak
“No compromise” est. 2000
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
Scholarship on gun control and genocide, especially Nazism
“America’s most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership”
Citizens for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Strong critic of Obama Policies, especially fast and furious
“The Common Sense Gun Lobby”
National Rifle Association
The big dog, huge money (even its opponents admit the bulk of this comes from individual gun owners)
More willing to compromise than the above, but being pushed away from compromise by the above
Founded by Union Army Officers to ensure marksmanship for future soldiers
Independent Firearms Owners Association
Enforce the laws we have now, don’t persecute gun owners, NRA has gone too conservative because of the above
“Effective Solutions for Complex Criminal Justice Problems”
Libertarians:
Reason.com (good youtube video, some articles)
Cato Institute
2. Inherent Right to Self Defense
All persons entitled to defend their lives
A threat to one’s life can only be answered with deadly force
Not granted by society, intrinsic to life
Denial of this is endorsement of cannibalism
Granted by God or by nature
Not everyone believes in god
Not everyone can follow this level of philosophy
3. Constitutional Protection
Is highest law of the land
Any law lower that contradicts is null
Many laws already contradict constitution and should be held null but are not
Committing some wrongs do not mean we need to commit more
Only entity Officers of US swear to support and defend
Supreme Court interprets BUT
Has ruled badly in past i.e. Dred Scott
Usually rules against individual liberty
4. Original Intent
Only way to address constitution
Interpreting as we please renders document meaningless
Must obey as written, guided by intent
If desired can AMMEND text
5. Original Intent: Text Analysis
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Assisted by Webster’s dictionary 1828. Constitution drafted 1789 Most founders knew Noah Webster (he edited some Federalist papers), he likely represented their ideas of words, Oxford English Dictionary also an option, but requires pay access.
Well regulated: “Adjusted by rule, method or forms; put in good order” disciplined, capable, well-drilled, well-trained, able
Militia: “The militia of a country are the able bodied men organized into companies, regiments and brigades, with officers of all grades, and required by law to attend military exercises on certain days only, but at other times left to pursue their usual occupations” men between ages of 15 and 45 able to bear arms, who drill and are available for call-up
Necessary: “1. That must be; that cannot be otherwise; indispensably requisite. It is necessary that every effect should have a cause. 3. Unavoidable; as a necessary inference or consequence from facts or arguments.”
Free: 2. In government, not enslaved; not in a state of vassalage or dependence; subject only to fixed laws, made by consent, and to a regular administration of such laws; not subject to the arbitrary will of a sovereign or lord; as a free state, nation or people. The opposite of how the colonists felt themselves under Britain.
State: 5. A political body, or body politic; the whole body of people united under one government, whatever may be the form of the government. All people united under government.
Right: “10. Just claim; immunity; privilege. All men have a right to the secure enjoyment of life, personal safety, liberty and property. We deem the right of trial by jury invaluable, particularly in the case of crimes. Rights are natural, civil, political, religious, personal, and public. 11. Authority; legal power. We have no right to disturb others in the enjoyment of their religious opinions.” Not subject to restriction.
People: “1. The body of persons who compose a community, town, city or nation.” All people, not necessarily united in government.
Keep: “1. To hold; to retain in one's power or possession; not to lose or part with; as, to keep a house or a farm; to keep any thing in the memory, mind or heart. 2. To have in custody for security or preservation.” To possess under your own power.
Bear: 2. To carry; to convey; to support and remove from place to place; as, "they bear him upon the shoulder;", "the eagle beareth them on her wings.“12. To possess and use as power; to exercise; as, to bear sway.” Carry anywhere.
Arms: “1. Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body. Sire arms, are such as may be charged with powder, as cannon, muskets, mortars, &c. A stand of arms consists of a musket, bayonet, cartridge-box and belt, with a sword. But for common soldiers a sword is not necessary.” Not Small Arms, a Stand of Arms, no “except sire arms or crew-served weapons or cannon”.
Shall not be: not may not or maybe not, or might be, or could be
infringed: “Broken; violated; transgresses.”
6. Constitutional Protection: Key Words
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Words were chosen carefully.
It is the people, not the state, states or militia whose right shall not to be infringed.
The right is to keep and bear arms, not to access, practice or only keep or only bear.
Arms are not small arms, are not a specific type of arms, there is no prohibition on types arms, understanding of larger weapons with high lethality (mortars and cannon) was widespread
7. Defend Self From Government
Founders had observed war of self defense against government
Understood risk of tyrannical government and wanted to guarantee balance of power
Jefferson even endorsed violent clashes
Modern militias CAN challenge national forces
Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine
Numerical, terrain advantages, capture of equipment and defection from government forces quickly even odds.
8. Defend Self From Government
Governments are scary
They kill more people than criminals BY FAR
In the 20th century most countries herded citizens into concentration camps at one point or another (US to Japanese)
It is hard to herd armed people into camps
Nazi Gun Control legislation enabled their genocides (JPFO studies on this-also link US Gun Control Act of 1968 to the Nazi text directly)
Armed Jews are scarier than disarmed Jews: Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
9. Defend Self From Government
The first gun control law National Firearms Act of 1934 was wrought with problems
Allegedly a revenue raising measure, not a ban
State’s case claimed short barreled shotguns in specific were not militia weapons as not used by any military (falsely)
Ignored that NFA 1934 also taxed Machine Guns, definitely used by Militaries
No defense counsel or brief submitted to Supreme Court
Very tricky, specific, semi-dishonest argument involving serial numbers won case
Even the A-USA in the first gun case before the court acknowledged the 2nd amendment is intended to protect military style weapons.
Registration leads to confiscation, there has been no example of national registration schemes not followed by confiscation of some or all registered weapons
10. Defend Self From Government
Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Weapons, Autonomous Weapons?
These are scary
People probably should not have them
Maybe we need a constitutional amendment
I would prefer governments not have them either, they are the only ones proven to have used them before, and will likely again.
11. Defend Self From Criminals
It is certain that in addition to protection from government, people are entitled to protect themselves from violence by criminals
This derives from the natural right to self defense
Founders understood the need, living before an era of police, and it is acceptable to argue this as a reason AFTER arguing protection for government (same with hunting)
Police cannot respond fast enough to save lives, just investigate after
Police cannot have legal obligation to protect people’s lives (case law has held this)
12. Defend Self From Criminals
Criminals do not obey laws-hence they are criminals
They will not obey gun laws
Only law abiding citizens will
Ordering the law abiding to disarm creates easy victims: “victim disarmament”
Any area the law abiding citizen’s right to bear arms is infringed will become a target for a criminal: ALL of the recent mass shootings occurred in legal (albeit unconstitutional) ‘gun-free’ zones
Lawful gun owners OFTEN end shootings with minimal or NO casualties.
Not being armed equally to criminals means the law abiding fight at disadvantage
Reload times kill (must have full capacity mags)
Don’t require the law abiding to bring a knife to a gun fight or a pistol to a rifle fight, or fists to an anything fight
13. Bad Arguments
It is bad to end the debate with god or nature and not include the constitution, most people cant handle esoteric, or belief arguments. This argument shuts down debate.
It is bad to interpret the constitution however we please, this renders it useless. This argument shuts down the debate.
It is bad to begin the argument of defense of self from government but not follow it all the way through its logical progression, that all existing gun control law is null as unconstitutional. This surrenders logical consistency and truth.
It is bad to begin to argue pragmatics on crime and self protection without including first protection from government, it is not the intent of the amendment.
It is wrong to even allow the opponents to use the phrases (let alone use them ourselves) ‘hunting and sporting’ these are not the intent of the amendment, do not derive from the right to self defense, and most importantly come from GCA 1968 which came from Nazi Gun Control laws
14. Definitions (Military not Legal)
Vehicles usually require a crew to employ and always require a large crew to maintain
E.G. Tanks, Helicopters, Jets, Armored Cars
Crew Served Weapons (CSW) require 2 or more people to employ
Weapons:
Cannon: CSW Large gun 40mm or larger, usually direct fire (flat trajectory)
Howitzer: CSW Large Indirect fire cannon
Mortar: CSW High angle indirect fire weapon
Grenade launcher: gun that fires grenades usually 37 mm or larger (close range indirect fire)
Machine Gun: CSW (usually) Often Belt Fed Gun that fires as long as the trigger is depressed, Heavy is .50cal Medium is .308cal and light .223 Cal (or near these calibers in soviet arms)
Sniper/Special purpose scoped rifle: CSW (when properly used) Long range (1000+ yd) rifle with a scope usually .308 cal or above
Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR): Medium Range (500-800 yds) rifle with a scope, usually .308 cal
Battle Rifle: Medium Range rifle (0-500 yds)
Assault rifle: Smaller caliber rifle for use by assault force, not suppression, light, close-range (0-300)
Carbine: Smaller caliber or powder compromise between a rifle and a submachine gun used for people not expected to be in combat or who MUST have light weight (paratroopers etc.) (0-300)
Submachine Gun: SMG small carbine that shoots a pistol caliber to limit recoil used for very close work that requires fast fires close assault, room clearing (0-100 yds)
Shotgun: Large bore gun for close range work can be automatic, semi-automatic or pump, usually fed fro m a tubular internal magazine newer models include detachable (0-100 yds)
Machine Pistol: An SMG, or a small SMG that looks like a pistol
Pistol: Semi automatic , automatic , or revolving chambered gun operable with one hand with much less powder than even a carbine round (often in calibers .45 and below)
Parts
Clip: a stripper clip has a number of rounds held together on a piece of metal for pushing into the gun rapidly, there they are stored in an internal magazine, “stripper” clips push the rounds off and into the magazine “en bloc” clips go into the guns magazine themselves
Magazine: Where rounds are stored before firing , internal magazines are rare anymore, much more common are detachable magazines often abbreviated “mags” the only military reason for limiting capacity is weight and unwieldy designs, this usually results in 20 rounds for .308, 30 for .223 and around 8-20 for pistols based on caliber size
It has become a legal debate since someone arbitrarily picked “10” as a magazine capacity limit in California, anti gunners say “high capacity” pro gun folk say “full capacity” or just “mag”
Belt: Disintegrating or reloaded (older or soviet) belts fire all rounds linked together fed from a bag or a box. Machineguns use this
Ammunition Round (Ammo, round or Cartridge) the complete package a gun fires (powder, bullet, casing, primer)
Bullet: Projectile that flies from a gun usually smaller and non-explosive
Casing: the brass that encases the powder, crimps to the bullet and holds the primer, ejects from gun after firing
Round: Individual unit of complete ammunition, includes bullet, casing, powder and primer
Shell: Canon or Howitzer bullet OR shotgun complete usually with plastic casing
Grenade: small explosive, can be designed to be thrown (hand-grenade) or fired from a launcher (it can only be either-or)
Measurements:
Caliber: imperial measures from groove to groove in hundredths of an inch diameter ex. .308
MM: metric measurements of lands to lands in mm, usually followed by a metric measurement of the length of the cartridge ex. 7.62x51
15. Rapid responses to opponents
Mass killings:
Not statistically rising or falling
Occur with similar volume and intensity per capita in nations with intense arms control (wiki rampage killings)
Highest casualty US school killing was in the 1920s, used explosives
Legally obtained automatic weapons have been used in 2 crimes in US history, one by a cop
Cops commit more illegal gun violence than concealed carry permit holders
Why don’t cops get mugged?
Guns are equalizers: 225lb 6’2 man vs 5’9 120lb woman: the outcome only changes when she has a gun
16. Pro Gun Organizations (Biased list)
Revolutionary War Veterans of America
Teach the historical connection between guns and the revolution, skills necessary to shoot
“no politics after 1776”
Gun Owners of America
Second biggest Pro gun lobby, second highest profile, very libertarian
“The only no-compromise gun lobby In Washington” –Ron Paul
National Association for Gun Rights
Rocky Mountain roots, anti-UN streak
“No compromise” est. 2000
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
Scholarship on gun control and genocide, especially Nazism
“America’s most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership”
Citizens for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Strong critic of Obama Policies, especially fast and furious
“The Common Sense Gun Lobby”
National Rifle Association
The big dog, huge money (even its opponents admit the bulk of this comes from individual gun owners)
More willing to compromise than the above, but being pushed away from compromise by the above
Founded by Union Army Officers to ensure marksmanship for future soldiers
Independent Firearms Owners Association
Enforce the laws we have now, don’t persecute gun owners, NRA has gone too conservative because of the above
“Effective Solutions for Complex Criminal Justice Problems”
Libertarians:
Reason.com (good youtube video, some articles)
Cato Institute
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 152
Belated thank you my fellow infantry officer Capt Richard I P. for posting a great question
As far as I am concerned the 2nd Amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights were written with wisdom that is timeless and should not be causally amended because anti-rights folks want to infringe our rights.
I decided to vote for 4 even though I do not agree that I still need a reason
I voted up your comments and responses.
FYI MAJ Tex Hall SGT Jimmy Carpenter MSG Kirt Highberger SGT Rick Ash MSG Jeremy Jiron SPC John Bryant PV2 Stephen Bukucs COL Randall C. SPC Robert CoventryMSgt Ken "Airsoldier" Collins-Hardy Lt Col Charlie Brown LTC (Join to see) LTC Thomas Tennant LTC John Shaw PO2 Steven Erickson SSG (Join to see)
As far as I am concerned the 2nd Amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights were written with wisdom that is timeless and should not be causally amended because anti-rights folks want to infringe our rights.
I decided to vote for 4 even though I do not agree that I still need a reason
I voted up your comments and responses.
FYI MAJ Tex Hall SGT Jimmy Carpenter MSG Kirt Highberger SGT Rick Ash MSG Jeremy Jiron SPC John Bryant PV2 Stephen Bukucs COL Randall C. SPC Robert CoventryMSgt Ken "Airsoldier" Collins-Hardy Lt Col Charlie Brown LTC (Join to see) LTC Thomas Tennant LTC John Shaw PO2 Steven Erickson SSG (Join to see)
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LTC Stephen F.
BEST OF #TruthStraightUp: The truth about the Second Amendment
One of the Left's favorite anti-gun arguments is that the Second Amendment was only intended for muskets, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Americ...
The second amendment was written by very wise individuals who trusted in the LORD
The truth about the Second Amendment
One of the Left's favorite anti-gun arguments is that the Second Amendment was only intended for muskets, but that couldn't be further from the truth. America won the War of Independence because the people had the right to own what were then "weapons of war." Today, leftists attempt to ban what they call "assault rifles" and take guns out of the hands of the American people, and we must fight back against it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-17YNAi9g
FYI MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. MSgt John McGowan SSG Jeremy Sharp PO3 (Join to see) SSG Gerhard S. SGT (Join to see) SSG Michael Noll SSG William Jones Lt Col Charlie Brown SFC William Farrell SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SPC Chris Bayner-Cwik CWO3 Dave AlcantaraCW5 Jack Cardwell SPC Robert Coventry TSgt Joe C. LTC (Join to see) SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SP5 Dave (Shotgun) Shockley PO1 (Join to see)
The truth about the Second Amendment
One of the Left's favorite anti-gun arguments is that the Second Amendment was only intended for muskets, but that couldn't be further from the truth. America won the War of Independence because the people had the right to own what were then "weapons of war." Today, leftists attempt to ban what they call "assault rifles" and take guns out of the hands of the American people, and we must fight back against it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-17YNAi9g
FYI MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. MSgt John McGowan SSG Jeremy Sharp PO3 (Join to see) SSG Gerhard S. SGT (Join to see) SSG Michael Noll SSG William Jones Lt Col Charlie Brown SFC William Farrell SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SPC Chris Bayner-Cwik CWO3 Dave AlcantaraCW5 Jack Cardwell SPC Robert Coventry TSgt Joe C. LTC (Join to see) SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SP5 Dave (Shotgun) Shockley PO1 (Join to see)
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I live in Vermont, and this state has the fewest gun laws of any state in the US. We also have the lowest crime rate per-capita. Our constitution was written before the US Bill of rights when Vermont was a republic! The following is from wikipedia;
The state has very few gun control laws, and has among the most permissive laws in the United States regarding the purchase of firearms as well as their open or concealed carry. The state's rural character, along with its strong hunting and outdoor sports traditions, have contributed to the state's permissive gun policies. Gun dealers are required to keep a record of all handgun sales. It is illegal to carry a gun in a school building or bus, or in a courthouse. State law preempts local governments from regulating the possession, ownership, transfer, carrying, registration or licensing of firearms.
The State neither issues nor requires a permit to carry a weapon on one's person, openly or concealed. This permissive stance on gun control is known in the U.S. as constitutional carry, since one's "permit" is said to be the United States Constitution. Vermont is the only state where this has always been the case (hence the alternative term Vermont carry. Vermont law does not distinguish between residents and non-residents of the state; both have the same right to carry permit-free while in Vermont.
The Vermont Constitution of 1777, dating well before the Bill of Rights to a time when Vermont was an independent republic, guarantees certain freedoms and rights to the citizens: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State – and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power." The Vermont Supreme Court established the right to carry firearms without a permit in its 1903 State v. Rosenthal decision.
In January 2013, the City of Burlington, Vermont's most populous municipality, approved an ordinance banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines within its limits. An attempt at gun control at the local level, the ordinance would be likely to be challenged in court if enforced because Vermont has State preemption of local restrictions. The proposed ordinance was never fully enacted.
The state has very few gun control laws, and has among the most permissive laws in the United States regarding the purchase of firearms as well as their open or concealed carry. The state's rural character, along with its strong hunting and outdoor sports traditions, have contributed to the state's permissive gun policies. Gun dealers are required to keep a record of all handgun sales. It is illegal to carry a gun in a school building or bus, or in a courthouse. State law preempts local governments from regulating the possession, ownership, transfer, carrying, registration or licensing of firearms.
The State neither issues nor requires a permit to carry a weapon on one's person, openly or concealed. This permissive stance on gun control is known in the U.S. as constitutional carry, since one's "permit" is said to be the United States Constitution. Vermont is the only state where this has always been the case (hence the alternative term Vermont carry. Vermont law does not distinguish between residents and non-residents of the state; both have the same right to carry permit-free while in Vermont.
The Vermont Constitution of 1777, dating well before the Bill of Rights to a time when Vermont was an independent republic, guarantees certain freedoms and rights to the citizens: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State – and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power." The Vermont Supreme Court established the right to carry firearms without a permit in its 1903 State v. Rosenthal decision.
In January 2013, the City of Burlington, Vermont's most populous municipality, approved an ordinance banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines within its limits. An attempt at gun control at the local level, the ordinance would be likely to be challenged in court if enforced because Vermont has State preemption of local restrictions. The proposed ordinance was never fully enacted.
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SPC Robert Nasiff
" It is illegal to carry a gun in a school building or bus, or in a courthouse." Why? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of open carry? I mean, couldn't you argue that not allowing guns on school buses, School buildings and courthouses restricts those areas from successfully being defended from those who would attack them? After all, the NRA believes otherwise.
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SSgt Robert Simonds
SPC Robert Nasiff - SSGTRobert Simonds It does, It is another way of gun control. It the is the cause of most mass shooting are in Gun free zones.
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SPC Robert Nasiff
SSgt Robert Simonds - And yet law enforcement even when there hasn't been able to stop such shootings. Adding more guns from who knows who, just would make it a free for all!
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SSgt Robert Simonds
That is why I live in Arizona it is a Constitutional cary state.there is more going to that every day.
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Yeah, taking away people's rights has worked so well in Chicago, New York, and Loc Angeles.
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A citizen should have any weapon that the government uses. A free person has to be virtuous and moral. Freedom requires personal responsibility and self control. If one does not practice either of those characteristics the state has to force control.
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Amn Roger Omberg
That invites insanity, which is exactly what we have now. BIDEN, & the demoncratz are crazy over the fact the constitution gives AMERICAN Citizens, the GOD given right to defend themselves. 87K, IRS AGENTS ARE ARMED TO MUG & ARREST ANYONE WHO THEY DO NOT LIKE BECAUSE THEY R NOT WOKE OR SOMETHING ELSE, including not paying their fare share, such BS.The IRS collects over 2 trillion $ per year from the citizens/corporations/etc.. Biden doesn't want to stop spending building ball parks in CUBA,
NOBAMA favorite place!
NOBAMA favorite place!
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It does not needed to be amended. It is clearly written in English... Taken in the context it was written it makes perfect sense. Only those WISHING it said something other than what it does say, are intent on claiming it is unclear, outdated, or in need of revision.
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If it is amended, it should only be so to state that it is an individual right so we don't risk 5 asshats on the Supreme Court trying to overturn Heller.
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1LT Aaron Barr
I'm guessing you remember that milk commercial; I was in high school when that damned thing came out and spent month being called 'Awhon Buhhr.' Not fun...
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PO1 John Miller
PO3 (Join to see)
That is PRECISELY the reason we have a Second Amendment to begin with! :)
That is PRECISELY the reason we have a Second Amendment to begin with! :)
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That PowerPoint slide is a banging representation of all the complexities we face today in defending our Right to defend ourselves. We can't amend this for one reason, and that is the glut of those on the left that are chomping at the bit for those that favor self defense and the use of original intent in this amendment to make a mistake. The gravest mistake we gun loving types could make as a whole is to allow an Article 5 Convention. There are so many gun hating, would be despots and oppressors already out there and open about their intent. If they were able to see an Article 5 Convention called they would coalesce and alter the fabric of our long standing freedoms by dropping an amendment that might well pass because of the number of people that hate firearms in any form.
We have to remember, the worst shooting in American history was not done by any civilian. It was done by government agents...after they ensured 'common sense gun reforms' were visited on the people they were facing 29 December, 1890. Then those agents shots approximately 300 men, women, and children all unarmed unable to respond to the immediate threat. The threat of something similar is no less present today, and we should remain just as vigilant in protecting our Rights, all of them as our Founding Fathers were when they put them down in writing for all to see. We would be more effective in Rights protection, by forcing the recognition of the 2nd Amendment in all 50 states like we do all marriages, and drivers licenses.
We have to remember, the worst shooting in American history was not done by any civilian. It was done by government agents...after they ensured 'common sense gun reforms' were visited on the people they were facing 29 December, 1890. Then those agents shots approximately 300 men, women, and children all unarmed unable to respond to the immediate threat. The threat of something similar is no less present today, and we should remain just as vigilant in protecting our Rights, all of them as our Founding Fathers were when they put them down in writing for all to see. We would be more effective in Rights protection, by forcing the recognition of the 2nd Amendment in all 50 states like we do all marriages, and drivers licenses.
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NO ! we do not need to touch the constitution we need to amend the leadership starting at the top of your heap with Obama the Traitor Now going to use your own admission against you in the SSI disability you may want to rethink about PSTD or any other mental disorder claim if you want to own a firearm ever again.
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Amn Roger Omberg
PV2 Larry Sellnow - Trump has never stated anything like that! He actually
did more for our VA than anyone has ever done! He fired some folks who worked 4 the VA
that needed firing.
did more for our VA than anyone has ever done! He fired some folks who worked 4 the VA
that needed firing.
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Amn Roger Omberg
I would like 2 c the link if U can provide that. I remember dead Vets in Arizona, when NOBAMA was in the WH, after that TRUNP SAID I WILL FIX IT & HE DID. it was much better afterwards, I know personally that the VA is much better now than anytime B-4
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Amn Roger Omberg
WHO BUILT THE BORDER WALL< MADE THE CHINESE PAY 28 BILLION $ TO OUR USA FARMERS WHO HAD BEEN TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM 4 YRs NOBAMA NEV ER DID SQUAT!
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SSgt Robert Simonds
The Va is good at pushing mental disorder from the experiences I had with them. and some of the Doctors I. had were. mental.
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Love it when people say that the Founding Fathers only meant for organized military units to have guns, when they warned against standing armies in peacetime as dangerous to liberty.
“A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves... and include all men capable of bearing arms.”
― Richard Henry Lee
“A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves... and include all men capable of bearing arms.”
― Richard Henry Lee
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Amn Roger Omberg
A MILITIA IS A CITIZEN ARMY TO PROVIDE PROTECTION FOR THEIR PROPERTY & FAMILIES, FELLOW CITIZENS, I wish that was the case now, talking about being scared sh###t##ss in the WH.
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SSgt Robert Simonds
In fact I suggested to all Americans today to form a Militia in their neighborhood and if any thing the whole neighborhood turns out and puts an end to the problem. The Illegals coming in to day don't to have anyvaluzs the I have seen. Squatters, mental ill, criminals, military's members from every enemy we ever had is now living among us. Folks I my opinion pre pare for the worst and hope for the best. If the worst comes first you are ready.
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Infringements like capacity restrictions, falsely characterizing a semi-automatic, magazine fed rifle as an assault rifle, stripping individuals of their right to life, granting more rights to criminals like allowing them to sue so they gain financially as a result of the commission of a crime all need to stop. We are forced to recognize all marriages in every state when that isn't in writing anywhere, but the 2nd Amendment that is in writing is refused in many stayes, infringed in others, not recognized by many. If your drivers license is good in all 50 states despite different standards required to get one, a CCW permit should be as well. No money should be involved with the permit process, and really the permit process should not be required. If you can own a firearm legally, you have the right to carry concealed. By submitting to a process where you can be told no, paying money to exercise a right...congratulations, you have relegated that right down to a privilege.
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I voted for unique and beautiful snowflake because the idea amused me deeply.
I don't think the second amendment should be amended AT ALL. However, I think it could use some clarification in a twenty first century framework. For example- the amendment calls for a well-regulated militia. WHAT constitutes such an organization? I think of national guard when I read that. Some people think of rabble rousers with a huge number of guns and ammunition taking over bird refuges in protest over not being given carte blanche to graze their cattle on federal land.
Should we restrict weapons in general? Should we restrict how and WHERE a person can tote a weapon? Should we restrict WHO can carry a weapon? What about taking the proper countermeasures to prevent an unqualified person (like a child) from accessing the weapon? By the way- I am using the word WEAPON on purpose.
I don't think the second amendment should be amended AT ALL. However, I think it could use some clarification in a twenty first century framework. For example- the amendment calls for a well-regulated militia. WHAT constitutes such an organization? I think of national guard when I read that. Some people think of rabble rousers with a huge number of guns and ammunition taking over bird refuges in protest over not being given carte blanche to graze their cattle on federal land.
Should we restrict weapons in general? Should we restrict how and WHERE a person can tote a weapon? Should we restrict WHO can carry a weapon? What about taking the proper countermeasures to prevent an unqualified person (like a child) from accessing the weapon? By the way- I am using the word WEAPON on purpose.
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SPC Charles Griffith
So if I am getting your point you feel ALL weapons should be restricted??? How exactly do you plan to get them from the criminals? ? ? The UK and Australia Havent been able to figure it out yet. You think you got the magic formula ??? Please let me here it tell me why I should be forced to rely on someone other than myself to provide for my protection??? Not even pointing out that it clearly states SELFdefense.
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Amn Roger Omberg
I read the story about Audie Murphy stood atop of a Patton tank, & firing a 50 Cal machine gun wiping out about 50 or so NAZI soldiers in WW2 , & I think that pretty well answers any questions that anyone may have in regards to Your safety. He was awarded the MOH for that as well, because He saved the lives of some OUR troops also, hell Yes!
I saw His grave stone in the National VA cemetery, OOOHRAH!
I saw His grave stone in the National VA cemetery, OOOHRAH!
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PO3 Edward Riddle
My idea of a well-regulated militia back when it was written was, WE THE PEOPLE with whatever kind of arms we possessed. There was no standing Army.
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In my opinion, the inclusion of the 2nd amendment in the bill of rights, other than allowing for performing our duty, as described in the Declaration of Independence (... it is their duty, to throw off such Government,...), was worded the way it was because the government did not have, or didn't think it would have, enough money to provide arms to the Militia, if it became necessary to call them up.
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SSgt Christopher Brose
Disagree. The militia clause is presented in the amendment as A justification for the right of the people to keep and bear arms, not THE justification for it.
People get caught up in the term "militia" and do crazy interpretations, like equating it to the Reserve components or something like that. But really, the militia clause is no less true now than when it was first written.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state..."
As an example, I refer to the Rodney King riots. After the trial acquitted the officers, many in the black community went nuts. There was looting, physical violence, arson, and there was no help from the police. A few Koreans became victims of the violence, and then the Koreans armed themselves, and took station on the rooftops of their buildings.
That armed response was the epitome of a militia. They weren't going out and taking revenge on anybody, they weren't taking on the role of cops, and they weren't overthrowing any government. They were simply securing their free state. For them, a militia was absolutely necessary, and keeping & bearing arms was the only way to achieve it.
People get caught up in the term "militia" and do crazy interpretations, like equating it to the Reserve components or something like that. But really, the militia clause is no less true now than when it was first written.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state..."
As an example, I refer to the Rodney King riots. After the trial acquitted the officers, many in the black community went nuts. There was looting, physical violence, arson, and there was no help from the police. A few Koreans became victims of the violence, and then the Koreans armed themselves, and took station on the rooftops of their buildings.
That armed response was the epitome of a militia. They weren't going out and taking revenge on anybody, they weren't taking on the role of cops, and they weren't overthrowing any government. They were simply securing their free state. For them, a militia was absolutely necessary, and keeping & bearing arms was the only way to achieve it.
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SPC John Decker
While I don't necessarily disagree with your implied definition, it's important to remember that the word MILITIA appears four times in the Constitution, before the 2nd amendment. Taken in context, it is implied that the militia is a pre-existing body of some sort. The sixth time the word appears also implies an organization of some kind.
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SSgt Christopher Brose
Doesn't matter. It's the right of the people to keep and bear arms, not the right of militia members to keep and bear arms. The militia clause is not a qualifying clause, it is an explanatory clause. It presents the necessity of a well regulated militia as at least one justification, not as the only justification, for the right of the people to keep and bear arms not to be infringed.
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Yes. I chose "Yes, restrict the people who can keep and bear arms "..
As for whom, I don't believe criminals, the insane or children should have ready access to firearms... That's not too terrible right?
As for whom, I don't believe criminals, the insane or children should have ready access to firearms... That's not too terrible right?
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PO1 Aaron Baltosser
Once a criminal has paid his debt to society, has completed probation and gone without negative police contact for an established period of time...why not restore their rights? They still have a right to defend themselves don't they?
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MSgt (Join to see)
I am OK with criminals losing their firearm rights forever. I am also OK with crazy people being prohibited while they are crazy but if someone gets depressed and they take their guns can they get them back when they are not depressed? Right now in many states this is not possible and they lose their rights forever. If someone has a permanent mental illness they should lose them forever. How about the various vets put on the mental illness list by the VA as was mentioned before? Children should not be able to use guns alone but they should be allowed to shoot under parental supervision.
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Sgt Joseph Baker
Today I was reading my Washington State Voters Pamphlet. Among the Initiatives on the ballot is a gun-control measure. Unlike many people, well probably most people, I read every line of my Voters Pamphlet for the fine details people try to sneak in. Because I do this, I don't vote for most of the bills proposed. While I agree that laws we have in-place in Washington State that allow the authorities to confiscate guns from persons who are deemed by a court or proper legal authority to be mentally ill, or deemed by a court to be a risk in domestic violence situations, to be returned once a court reinstates that right, I don't support the expanded version of the law proposed on our ballot. I read through most of it, and they almost convinced me to agree with this initiative until I got to the very last paragraph. Then I read the most important thing about the entire measure, a part not mentioned in the summary that is the only part most people actually read before voting. The guns are to be returned upon the court's order unless the police authority has a reason they think the individual still is too high a risk. This is after the judge has decided to restore the individual. The Devil is always in the details. There are many law enforcement agencies led by men who will take that clause and run with it, never returning anyone's guns, even after the court decided it was ok. Like the recent new law in Hawaii, the end result is the determination of the restoration of your rights and the return of your property will be decided by the whims of a member of the executive branch, most often an unelected official, even when a court of law has already ordered it. Where is Due Process? Is it not the Judicial Branch that provides Due Process and Redress of Grievances when the Executive Branch has not? Do we really want to change our legal system such that a cop can now decide the fate of your rights instead of a judge? Scary, sneaky stuff. If not for that last paragraph, I might have agreed to the new initiative. Many people will because they will not take the time to read that long boring legal text; and our rights will be undermined by the under-informed.
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SFC Jim Ruether
These currently are the laws SSG Hasbun. If you look you will see Criminals, those judged mentally unstable and children under the age of 18 are not supposed to have access to firearms. The big difference between the times we grew up in and today is that no one has "respect for life" any more. Kids learn early on in some households that running over someone or hitting and killing a prostitute with a 9 iron will get you points in a totally pointless video game. Enforcing the laws won't necessarily protect us because law enforcement can't be everywhere all the time. So they basically show up to take the names of the victims and the perpetrators and place them in jails or the morgue. If we had more respect for life this wouldn't be happening as often as it does.
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Personally, I feel that an amendment would further enable "law makers" to clarify/justify further limitation of this Amendment as well as identify "who can" and "who can't", and, as you all know, we would have no real "say so" in any of this; and if that happens, God help us, as no one would be happy with the results...
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SSgt Christopher Brose
Oh, it certainly would, that would be the whole point of doing it. But I'm not worried, not in the least, because the amendment process is difficult by design. Gun control freaks can get away with hyperbole sometimes, but there's no way they can put anything down in writing and have 2/3 of both houses of Congress and 3/4 of the state legislatures ratify it.
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The Founding Fathers had it right, even for the current generations ruled under the 2cd Amendment. Leave it alone unless Obama has somehow limited anything through Executive Action.
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Make one state's license to carry, valid in all 50 states. Best case, go to Constitutional Carry; but I'd settle for mandatory reciprocity.
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