Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
It's 0036 and I can't sleep as usual, so I decided to checkout rallypoint. Are you kidding me! This crap isn't really happening, is it? Didn't check what branch, and to be honest, it really doesn't matter. Having said that, in my twenty plus years in the Infantry, I don't recall a private blatantly telling an NCO he wasn't going to do something. I'm not going to tell you what I would have done, because quit frankly, I retired in 1999, and obviously a lot has changed. Some for the better I hear, but apperantly the discipline piece is lacking. I think that regardless of how outdated and old I feel, one (A leader) should establish his position from the very beginning. If your buds with the lower enlisted one minute, and the next you want to order him or her around, then you're simply setting yourself up for failure. However, if you infact extablished your position from the very beginning and your subordinate still attempts to test his boundaries with you, then you have to make it a significant emotional event for him ASAP, without getting yourself in trouble. Obviously use professional judgment. You wouldn't want him to do flutter kicks or something like that in his Blues, or push-ups during flag detail. Man, my blood pressure went up just reading this! Remember, nothing is complete without the paperwork Airborne! Cover your ass!
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Confront them there, tell them to do it, and to see you after formation. After formation, away from the masses, is the time to read them the riot act on what will happen, next time that happens. And, of course document it. If it happens again, deal with it and document it. Leaders run the military, not the privates.
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Real easy, he would be charged with disobeying a lawful order. Recommend an Article 15, you must send a message to the troops under your command.
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MAJ Mark Kottka
Not a question at all. Him up up w/ loss of pay as well. This older retired Mustang would have thought his squad might have had a few recommendations for the E-2.
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Stand fast PVT after formation. Woodline counseling from sun up to sun down!
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So, I'm reading all of these responses and there seems to be a whole bunch of "have a witness" and "counsel this or that". My experience when I was an NCO was that if a kid loud talked one NCO in the Battery, it was akin to loud talking all of the NCO's in the Battery. All of the NCO's in the Battery would get the situation squared away. Granted, that was the early '90's in the Corps when things were a bit different. Besides that, lower enlisted guys bucking up on an NCO were very few and far between, very rare.
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Hell this always happened when I first joined in 74, the solution is drop every one and have them do push up, then you join them for the second round of push up, then leave so that the rest instruct the E-2.
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CSM Charles Hayden
CPT Pedro Meza Mass punishment is unfair! And works like a charm! And the NCO's hands are lily white!
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Thank you posting an interesting question my friend LTJG (Join to see).
As a PV2 Combat Engineer I never smart mouthed in formation. As a PFC USMAPS cadet candidate I never smart-mouthed in formation. As an acting Drill-cadet-Sgt at Fort Dix in 1978, no PV2 or PVT smart mouthed to me in formation.
As in infantry Platoon Leader, I never experienced a PV2 or any other rank smart-mouthing in formation. If they did, the platoon NCO's would pull him aside and correct him via counseling.
FYI MSG Danny Mathers SSG Roger Ayscue PO1 Robert Ryan 1SG Joseph Dartey SSG Bill McCoy 1LT Peter Duston MSgt James Parker SMSgt Lawrence McCarter SPC Michael Terrell SSG Edward Tilton SSG Derrick IozzioSSG (Join to see) CW3 Matt Hutchason CPT Pedro Meza CW4 Craig Urban PO3 Edward Riddle CMDCM John F. "Doc" Bradshaw MSgt Bj Jones
As a PV2 Combat Engineer I never smart mouthed in formation. As a PFC USMAPS cadet candidate I never smart-mouthed in formation. As an acting Drill-cadet-Sgt at Fort Dix in 1978, no PV2 or PVT smart mouthed to me in formation.
As in infantry Platoon Leader, I never experienced a PV2 or any other rank smart-mouthing in formation. If they did, the platoon NCO's would pull him aside and correct him via counseling.
FYI MSG Danny Mathers SSG Roger Ayscue PO1 Robert Ryan 1SG Joseph Dartey SSG Bill McCoy 1LT Peter Duston MSgt James Parker SMSgt Lawrence McCarter SPC Michael Terrell SSG Edward Tilton SSG Derrick IozzioSSG (Join to see) CW3 Matt Hutchason CPT Pedro Meza CW4 Craig Urban PO3 Edward Riddle CMDCM John F. "Doc" Bradshaw MSgt Bj Jones
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SGT Ruben Lozada
Excellent response. I concur as well. I recall when I was active duty Navy the one handing out assignments was PO1. I don't think an E-2 was going to tell His or Her Supervisor no. That PO1 has the authority to make that E-2 sign a negative counseling statement and make that individual stay late after working hours. But, I've seen it happen before. Also, when I was active duty Army the ones handling out assignments were Our squad leaders, which was either a SGT or SSGT. I highly doubt a PV2 was going to tell a SGT no. But, I've seen it happen before. It didn't end well for that PV2. The SGT would then let a TL CPL handle the situation. That's where He or She gets a little creative. Now as far as other branches go. I can't speak for them. But, I'm sure they have appropriate ways of correcting the deficiency.
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Is this "REALLY" a question, or has the military gotten that soft?!?!
He'd have two holes to crap out of by the time I'm done with him. I had a duffelbag Private tried that with me as an E-5P...I made him a civilian within a year. I had all his counsel statements from his Team Chief given to me as a Section Sergeant. After having his ass on extra-duty and Art.15 for his insubordination and a few other things, he was sent on his merry way...
He'd have two holes to crap out of by the time I'm done with him. I had a duffelbag Private tried that with me as an E-5P...I made him a civilian within a year. I had all his counsel statements from his Team Chief given to me as a Section Sergeant. After having his ass on extra-duty and Art.15 for his insubordination and a few other things, he was sent on his merry way...
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This is an excellent question. I've seen this occur a few times during My career in the Military. It mostly occurs with an E-1 fresh out of boot camp or BCT. He or She have a better understanding of the rank structure and have more respect for an NCO, which in many cases it's a title that's earned to achieve. For example, if that E-1 Seaman Recruit does that to a E-5 Petty Officer Second Class, and mostly lively that E-5 is a work center supervisor NCO. He or She has the authority to issue that new person a negative counseling statement to correct His or Her deficiency. Now this would be somewhat similar within the Army or whatever type of unit their assigned too. So when the E-2 PFC Soup Sandwich decides to talk like that to an E-5 SGT NCO, and in many cases He or She already a Team Leader or Squad Leader. That PFC with His mosquito wings is asking for trouble. Because He or She is disobeying a direct order from an NCO, which is His or Hers Supervisor. One or two thing may occur, they will receive a negative counseling statement based upon their behavior or they will do some random exercise task picked by the NCO such Cherry Pickers, Overhead Arm Claps, Mountain Climbers for about an hour, or whatever time the NCO decides it should be. I'm sure that will change their whole outlook after that situation.
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