Posted on Aug 1, 2020
LTC Physician Assistant
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LTC Vindman retires, was he right or wrong? What about the second and third order effects?

Aside from the usually partisan (and superficial) comments regarding LTC (R) Vindman, is there a lesson to be learned here? We had a sitting US senator holding up promotion for 1000 senior officers to allow for his promotion. Whistleblowing. Polarizing politics and the politicalization of the military seems to be here for the duration. While the retired could easily just take pot shots from Ft. Living Room, here's my question. How can currently serving members truly remain apolitical? In a world where one callus post can end your career, use some judgment if you elect to weigh in. Was he right? Would you have done the same? Was he dead wrong?
Edited >1 y ago
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Responses: 285
SPC Bryan Guzman-Piedra
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Vindman contacted the Ukrainian government and told them not to listen to the guy that makes foreign policy.

We used to call that sedition.
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SPC Mark Marquette
SPC Mark Marquette
2 y
Where is the reference for that!? You cannot make that kind of charge w/o evidence!
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SFC John Gilmore
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"I....do solemnly swear that I will support and defend THE CONSTITUTION of the United States"...therein lies the litmus test. The question I think is whether or not he truly believed that the actions he took were in line with the oath...
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MAJ Matthew Arnold
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There is no way to address this question unbiasedly. We have all already decided which side we are on , which means we have all already decided if LTC Vindman was a good guy or a bad guy. The lesson here is to stay out of politics and don't accept assignments to the White House.
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LTC Physician Assistant
LTC (Join to see)
>1 y
I agree we all have a bias. The lesson is perhaps don’t let your bias affect your professional judgement.
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SFC Barbara Layman
SFC Barbara Layman
>1 y
Something instilled in me/us when I first enlisted back in dinosaur days. Many was the time someone was looking for something I didn't think they deserved. The regs said they were entitled so the requests went forward never mind my humble opinion.

It was a great lesson - setting bias aside and considering facts only. A lesson I followed very carefully throughout my career(s) and work at today. It brings a lot of flack b/c not everyone understands that it should be done and can be done.

Doesn't appear that many receive such training in today's military. Such a great loss.
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SSG Dave Johnston
SSG Dave Johnston
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CPT Staff Officer
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My rank here camouflages my age here. It seems to me the worst place for a LTC to be assigned is the WH. Ask Oliver North.
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LTC Physician Assistant
LTC (Join to see)
>1 y
You may be right.
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Lt Col Air Battle Manager
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LTC Stephen F.
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Edited >1 y ago
Thank you my friend LTC (Join to see) for posting a great question [long ago - which I just discovered.
I certainly would not have acted as he did in his role in the national security post.
It seems obvious to me that he relied on hearsay and claimed he heard the conversation directly under oath. There is no place for political bias in decision making for active-duty service members.

As far as second and third order effects, trust in military advisors at the national level; the impact of the 2020 national election; increased animosity and posturing of right and left-leaning folks; and the failed impeachment attempt [second] on POTUS Donald Trump.
The cost in political capital and wasted opportunities by Congress to work on legislative action for the benefit of the people of this nation is known only by God.

1. As a former enlisted soldier I took the enlist oath in 1974 and 1975
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962)"

2. As a commissioned Army officer Regular Army and later USAR I took the commissioned officer oat many times between May 1980 [graduation for USMA] through May 2008.
"I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. (Title 5 U.S. Code 3331, an individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services)"

Article 92—Failure to obey order or regulation From [[mcm.mil/#art-92[]}
Text of statute. "Any person subject to this chapter who-violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation; having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."
Elements.
Violation of or failure to obey a lawful general order or regulation. That there was in effect a certain lawful general order or regulation; That the accused had a duty to obey it; and That the accused violated or failed to obey the order or regulation.

Failure to obey other lawful order.
That a member of the armed forces issued a certain lawful order;
That the accused had knowledge of the order;
That the accused had a duty to obey the order; and
That the accused failed to obey the order.

Dereliction in the performance of duties.
That the accused had certain duties;
That the accused knew or reasonably should have known of the duties; and
That the accused was (willfully) (through neglect or culpable inefficiency) derelict in the performance of those duties.
[Note: In cases where the dereliction of duty resulted in death or grievous bodily harm, add the following as applicable]
That such dereliction of duty resulted in death or grievous bodily harm to a person other than the accused."

I concur with responses of my friends SPC Nancy Greene SGT Dan Gray CAPT Kevin B. SSgt G Wingate LTC Joe Anderson (Taz or Joe Retired Now in Contract Compliance) LTC Orlando Illi SSG Bill McCoy COL Thomas McGrath SFC Bernard Walko LTC Thomas Tennant SPC Robert Bobo Cpl Mark A. Morris MSG Danny Mathers PO1 Kevin Dougherty MSG Don Burt MAJ Hugh Blanchard LTC Eric Udouj MAJ Damajah Arnold
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LTC Stephen F.
LTC Stephen F.
>1 y
FYI my friends in case you did not see the question LTC Vindman retires, was he right or wrong? What about the second and third order effects?
As far as second and third order effects, trust in military advisors at the national level; the impact of the 2020 national election; increased animosity and posturing of right and left-leaning folks; and the failed impeachment attempt [second] on POTUS Donald Trump.
The cost in political capital and wasted opportunities by Congress to work on legislative action for the benefit of the people of this nation is known only by God.

MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. PO3 Edward Riddle SPC Michael Terrell SPC Woody Bullard CPL Ronald Keyes Jr MSG Roy CheeverMCPO Hilary KunzCPL Douglas Chrysler SFC William Farrell GySgt Jack Wallace SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D CMDCM John F. "Doc" Bradshaw PO1 Jeff Chandler SMSgt Lawrence McCarter SSG William Jones SGT Mary G.SSgt Kelly D. Sgt (Join to see) CWO4 Terrence Clark
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PO3 Edward Riddle
PO3 Edward Riddle
>1 y
LTC Stephen F. - Thank You Brother Steve for clearing this up.
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1SG Alan Boggs
10
10
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The disgraced LTC chose politics over country. I hope he fades away into retirement but, i suspect he will become a well paid, "former intelligence official" who will spend the rest of his life as a prop of the left whenever they need to validate some left leaning opinion.
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CW3 Michael Hess
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Vindman blew the “whistle” to the wrong people. He certainly did not use the chain of command or the IG. He was political not a soldier. I am not taking anything away from him, just, I think, he used bad judgment.
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CPL Kenneth Servello Jr
CPL Kenneth Servello Jr
>1 y
He lied..
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PO3 Joshua Hayes
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10
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My opinion for what it's worth... you're NEVER allowed to use your personal opinions while under contract to undermine the chain of command. This is EXACTLY what this LTC did during the hearing... subpoenaed or not.
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William Drummond
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LTC V went around his chain of command. He chose to take a trip up the hill and share his concerns with a member of Congress. It would take several days before the whistleblower protocols started with him. LTC V admitted that he received guidance and advice from someone in Congress during one part of his hearing. When asked to whom he voiced his concern in his chain of command, he matter-of-factly answered, "Nobody."

I disagree with Trump's public shaming of people. Such acts are below the standards of any leader at any level. There are few times when you chastise in public. Praise in public, chastise in private.
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LTC Physician Assistant
LTC (Join to see)
>1 y
Not using the chain of command was a serious mistake.
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CPL Kenneth Servello Jr
CPL Kenneth Servello Jr
>1 y
Nothing wrong with calling folks out in public when they GO public.
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Lt Col Leslie Bryant
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Frankly as a four time former US Defense, Acting Defense and Air Attache and Security Assistance Officer and Adviser to 5 US Ambassadors in Nicaragua, Zambia, Nigeria and Sierra Leone specializing in Post Conflict Countries, I’m not convinced nor did I hear anything in the testimony that convinced me President Trump did anything wrong. I did see an immature Army LTC out of his element serving in a position I question he even had the qualifications or experience for. I’m not sure he had received any orientation or training for his job from the State Department or Intelligence Agencies which could have affected his decision making and choice of actions. I also felt he did not understand who he worked for or how to interact with those folks, especially the State Department. I also heard his State Department Boss say he was not respected, had jumped their chains of command, gone around his State Department Boss and again he appeared very immature. Should any Senator hold up military promotions? No, but they do and this was no exception! The US Military needs and should continue to remain apolitical! It does not help that our now retired Generals rather than quietly retiring and remaining apolitical previously have now chosen to become political! I blame retiring Generals dating to Obama for this increased politicization. That said, the US Military needs to find a way to stay apolitical!
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LTC Thomas Tennant
LTC Thomas Tennant
>1 y
Right on...It goes to my comment, he lacked maturity and judgement for the position he held. I would have reflected that in his OER comments. He in my opinion is a disgrace and a self aggrandizing buffoon.
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PO1 Kevin Dougherty
PO1 Kevin Dougherty
>1 y
He also acted on secondhand information. Never a good idea.
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